965 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

M-Taylor wrote...
Are you choosing to ignore that the Grey Wardens are more than a unit? They're akin. They share the same blood practically. Alistair even says he considers the Grey Wardens as family more then once. Accepting the guy who murdered your second family is not something you want to do. And he *can't* just go to another unit. There's only 3 Grey Wardens in Fereleden, and Rhiodian makes them work together in meetings and such.

Then he could have gone to the Orlesian Wardens, instead of just leave.

[Swoo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Then you don't know Loghain Hanz.

I would have to say, that Loghian would have still performed the same actions. He was dead set of securing Ferelden the way he saw fit, that he would be willing to sacrifice all the remaining wardens in the country. He could always send word to the Orlesians to send GWs to fight the archdemon, after the civil war was over.

Now this creates a very interesting scenario, for a fanfiction at least.

I need to reread The Calling, but doesn't Loghain have a justifiable beef with the Wardens with what happened with Remille (sp?) and Maric's near assassination in the tower?

Right or wrong in his motivations, you can at least see where Loghain is coming from. If I was him, I'd probably never forgive Orlais even, sort of like Zathrian. Even if you know it's wrong, you just can't stop. And I don't think he has had the best of encounters with the Wardens, and listening to Calian's hero-worship of them must have been torture.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
I'm not sure but isn't only Alistair talking about duty?

Which makes him hypocritical, yes.

I won't argue that this is hypocritical, I want to know if it's true. Is Alistair really the only one talking about duty?

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2010 - 09:23 .

[Xandurpein]

I belive that D Gaider has written that if you pardon Loghain and Alistair leaves in disgust, then he will later regret his actions at the Landsmeet.

So even if some people find his actions fully justified, then I think he does not himself think so. The fact that rumor suggests he becomes a drunk, suggests a lot of self destructiveness on his part.

Personally I think that Alistair later regrets his actions, but then it is too late. He always had problems with his self esteem to begin with, and I believe that waking up and realizing what he had done after the Landsmeet may well have shattered what little self respect he had to begin with.

I like to believe that in a better outcome for him, that he can gain more confidence and even be able to finally see the hollow triumph vengeance really is, but that is just my hope.

Would my Cousland try to find Alistair and be ready to forgive him? Yes he would. Just as he decided to give Loghain another chance, so would he give Alistair another chance. I liked Alistair a lot more than I liked Loghain and it was heart breaking to see him go.

In my "canon" play Alistair almost had me convinced to not pardon Loghain, when he pulled the "I want to be King so I can kill Loghain" card, even though he up until then had been happy to let Anora rule. I couldn't do that.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 juin 2010 - 09:39 .

[nos_astra]

Xandurpein wrote...
In my "canon" play Alistair almost had me convinced to not pardon Loghain, when he pulled the "I want to be King so I can kill Loghain" card, even though he up until then had been happy to let Anora rule. I couldn't do that.

Exactly how I will play my second canon female human noble. This is the point where she is like "WTF!? NO! Are you insane? Not like THAT!".

It should be said that I as a player who likes Alistair can understand his actions. I might even think they are justified, just as Loghain fans would say Loghain's actions are justified (and I would strongly disagree). I appreciate that Alistair is so human and emotional. My characters would be a lot more involved than I am and be furious and hurt and feel the strong urge to kill him (until Anora offers this, then they would object).

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2010 - 10:20 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

klarabella wrote...
Exactly how I will play my second canon female human noble. This is the point where she is like "WTF!? NO! Are you insane? Not like THAT!".

Ha! This would have been my reaction in my very first playthrough, except I'd been *trying* to put Alistair on the throne. I was still appalled when he played his 'I'll be king!' card , but the alternative was Anora, who spoke on *behalf* of Loghain at the Landsmeet and tried to be all 'You see how childish Alistair is!' to keep her crown.

Alistair became king, HN got dumped, then Alistair killed himself slaying the archdemon because he didn't WANT to be king and didn't want her to die >.<

Much as I love Alistair...I really wish I could have knocked him unconscious before the archdemon thing.

[Costin_Razvan]

Hanz: The scenario was if Loghain had won the civil war, as in executed Alistair and PC Warden...

[phoenixgoddess27]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Exactly how I will play my second canon female human noble. This is the point where she is like "WTF!? NO! Are you insane? Not like THAT!".

Ha! This would have been my reaction in my very first playthrough, except I'd been *trying* to put Alistair on the throne. I was still appalled when he played his 'I'll be king!' card , but the alternative was Anora, who spoke on *behalf* of Loghain at the Landsmeet and tried to be all 'You see how childish Alistair is!' to keep her crown.

Alistair became king, HN got dumped, then Alistair killed himself slaying the archdemon because he didn't WANT to be king and didn't want her to die >.<

Much as I love Alistair...I really wish I could have knocked him unconscious before the archdemon thing.

Haha, this made me laugh, but I agree. I let him sleep with Morrigan though, just wish I could have knocked her unconscious too, permanently

[Xandurpein]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Exactly how I will play my second canon female human noble. This is the point where she is like "WTF!? NO! Are you insane? Not like THAT!".

Ha! This would have been my reaction in my very first playthrough, except I'd been *trying* to put Alistair on the throne. I was still appalled when he played his 'I'll be king!' card , but the alternative was Anora, who spoke on *behalf* of Loghain at the Landsmeet and tried to be all 'You see how childish Alistair is!' to keep her crown.

Alistair became king, HN got dumped, then Alistair killed himself slaying the archdemon because he didn't WANT to be king and didn't want her to die >.<

Much as I love Alistair...I really wish I could have knocked him unconscious before the archdemon thing.

You really need to appreciate that some of the characters in the game are quite complex and it is entirely possible to go through an entire game without really seeing much of their darkest sides at all. This is especially true of the two possible monarchs, Anora and Alistair.

Personally I was in complete agreement with Anora, when she claimed Alistair was not fit to rule when he played the "Hand me the Crown so I can behead Loghain" card, becuase of the circumstances, but I can see other circumstances which put things in a different light.

I think Sylvanaerie put it quite well on another thread when she said that no one really were in their best form at the Landsmeet. It's like all the tension made everyone present goes a little bonkers at the slightest chance, or something.

Let me assure you that I like Alistair a lot too. I think he's a great guy, and it's certainly not his fault that fate sometimes hand him a raw deal, but that doesn't mean I think that it is always right to give him what he wants.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 juin 2010 - 12:51 .

[Giggles_Manically]

[Addai]

 
Anora demands one
thing and one thing only: the throne. She may promise support
regardless and some might call her a **** for not following through on
that but she'll do whatever it takes to try and get it. She feels she
is the best for Ferelden and has five years of doing what she and many
people (who, keep in mind, also don't care about the elves) feel is a
good job so it's not like she has no evidence to back up her claim.
Betraying you at the Landsmeet isn't nice but it's hardly childish.
Refusing to swear fealty to an untested King who only is on the throne
because of a father who never acknowledged him and because you and
Eamon like him more than her might be considered childish, I suppose.
 

Anora demands one
thing and one thing only: the throne. She may promise support
regardless and some might call her a **** for not following through on
that but she'll do whatever it takes to try and get it. She feels she
is the best for Ferelden and has five years of doing what she and many
people (who, keep in mind, also don't care about the elves) feel is a
good job so it's not like she has no evidence to back up her claim.
Betraying you at the Landsmeet isn't nice but it's hardly childish.
Refusing to swear fealty to an untested King who only is on the throne
because of a father who never acknowledged him and because you and
Eamon like him more than her might be considered childish, I suppose.

 (Husband posting)

Hey Sarah, I'm going to take a shot at what my wife posted last night.   I'm pretty sure she's especially talking about the scene just before Loghain tells Anora to stand down (IF the PC insists he die for his crimes).   In that scene it really looks like Anora is going to back Loghain to the very end.    She says something like "She won't stand for it".     This scene is very vivid in my mind because I for the firs time did the Anora / Allister arranged marriage and its the first time I've seen it.


Anyway for a second or two it looks like the civil war thing is about to start over again until daddy intervenes and gives her the talk and she breaks down and cries for a few seconds.   Anyway when you add that scene two the other Anora-isms a case could be made that Allistair is not anymore immature then her.    How they turn out is a role of the dice based on how the PC drives the scenario.


And granted I like all the main characters.   The whole landsmeet thing plays out more in terms of how I envision a PC and metagaming so I can see all the various endings and content of the game.

[Costin_Razvan]

I suppose then that your point is true enough. Why the need for Orlesian Wardens anyway if there had been Fereldan ones willing and able to kill the Archdemon.

[M-Taylor]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

M-Taylor wrote...
Are you choosing to ignore that the Grey Wardens are more than a unit? They're akin. They share the same blood practically. Alistair even says he considers the Grey Wardens as family more then once. Accepting the guy who murdered your second family is not something you want to do. And he *can't* just go to another unit. There's only 3 Grey Wardens in Fereleden, and Rhiodian makes them work together in meetings and such.

Then he could have gone to the Orlesian Wardens, instead of just leave.

But your whole argument is that he does leave? What would it matter if he went to Orelsia(spelling?)? He would still be deserting his comrades and fleeing from the Blight? What he does with his own pixel life is his own choice, I thought your argument was that you're pissy at him for leaving *during* the Blight?

I still don't see why people don't see his point of view. Maybe I'm being arrogant, but would you accept the guy who murdered your 2nd family into the remains of your 2nd family? Truth be told, I honestly would of probably done the same as Alistair. I wouldn't want to serve with someone like that.

Saying that, I wouldn't of become a drunk, I would've, like you said, gone west or traveling or something. >.>

[Giggles_Manically]

I didnt kill Loghain because murdering him is not something I agree on. While Capital Punishment had its place in time, it is wrong. Everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves or to atone no matter what they did.



Sten atones for killing a family,

Zevran atones for his former life by stopping to save Ferelden,

Leliana gave up her old life to help the wardens

Shale goes from not caring to being a person (almost) again

Oghern goes from being a obnoxious drunkard, to a slightly less drunk warrior again

and My Dwarf Commenor went from a selfish schnook, to an actual Warden in the end.



If Alistair can accpet all these people and my Dwarf, then has a hissy fit and abandons everything because of Loghain then I lose a lot of respect for him.

[Relshar]

Alistair sees the world in rose tinted glasses. He sees the Grey Wardens as a noble order who fight the Blight and darkspawn. What he fails to realise that Grey Wardens come from all walks of life and have amoungst their ranks Bloodmages, Apostaes, murders and outlaws. As well as the noble knights and circle mages.



And yes at the Landsmeet Alistiar throws a hissy fit which realy surpprised me.

[Costin_Razvan]

Saying that, I wouldn't of become a drunk, I would've, like you said, gone west or traveling or something. >.>

So you would have gone against the memory of your 2nd family, spit on everything they had stood for and then leave YOUR country? Even Alistair understands he is an idiot for doing that.

[Giggles_Manically]

Alistair leaving the Wardens is like a man leaving the French Foreign Legion, because a man he has to work with is a murderer. Even though many heros in the Legion were criminals or thugs. Even into today people with a pretty bad record get in. Alistair made his descion, but I wished he could actually man up and accept the cold hard facts. Also why doesent Riordian just override both the PC and Alistair if he is the senior Warden?

[nos_astra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Also why doesent Riordian just override both the PC and Alistair if he is the senior Warden?

Maybe because recruiting Loghain is simply that: An option, not the totally awesome, necessary GW thing some are trying to make of it.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2010 - 04:45 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Saying that, I wouldn't of become a drunk, I would've, like you said, gone west or traveling or something. >.>

So you would have gone against the memory of your 2nd family, spit on everything they had stood for and then leave YOUR country? Even Alistair understands he is an idiot for doing that.

No, Alistair struggles because he has an unhealthy sense of duty that will kick in at some point and torment him for the rest of his life. That's his character.

I would simply go, feel a bit guilty and not look back but I don't have a sense of duty that goes so far as gladly sacrificing my ideals, my body, my soul just because.

[Fishy]

Astranagant wrote...

The problem I have with Alistair's reaction after the duel is that he's flat out abandoning his duty and betraying the oath he made to Duncan and the Wardens.

Hanz54321 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

I believe that you would get more of a discussion in the Alistair thread.

I also believe that a person's upbringing is not an excuse for the way they act.

You know nothing about human development then.  You really think you'd be the same person you are today if you had been taught different values, if you had been born in poverty instead of middle class, or if you had been born rich instead of poor (I don't know your background).  Or say you'd been permanently disabled.  You don't think you would see the world differently?

That's a fools point of view as black and white as Alistair's views on right and wrong.

Who we are is mostly luck.  Where we were born and raised (societal influences) and who we were born too (parent education and genetics).

Actually, modern science has found that a significant amount of who you are is genetic.

They've done studies, for example, on identical twins who were seperated at birth and raised by different families, and a startlingly large number of them pursued nearly identical paths in life. One of the most famous examples is a pair of seperated twins who both became firefighters, both married women with a specific appearance, both had extremely similar personality and mannerisms, etc., despite being raised by very different families and under very different circumstances.

If you take a course in Psychology (as a physical/biological science,) you'll hear a lot about it in the Nature/Nurture debate.

A lot of thing are indeed genetic.hell Depression and phobia are a genetic thing.

[M-Taylor]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Saying that, I wouldn't of become a drunk, I would've, like you said, gone west or traveling or something. >.>

So you would have gone against the memory of your 2nd family, spit on everything they had stood for and then leave YOUR country? Even Alistair understands he is an idiot for doing that.

I didn't say he was right? I said I understand why he did it, which is the point of this thread? >_>

[Costin_Razvan]

I am curios what Alistair would have done had Riordan decided to do just that...I am certain it would have been a different situation.

Now that Giggles mentions it, it is quite interesting to see the many parallels the French Foreign Legion has with the GWs, at least in recruitment.

 I didn't say he was right? I said I understand why he did it, which is the point of this thread? >_>

At the end of your post you state would have left yourself had you been in his shoes, just not become a drunk.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 04:48 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BigBad. And what if that Warden that they let leave decides to tell everyone about the joining? What then? Wouldn't that compromise their secrecy? It potentially does. Thus yes, that deeserter can be killed for the same charge.

Who are you to carry out such a trial and execution?  Your PC has no rank over Alistair.  And who is going to come chop your prince consort's head off for taking a title rather than living up to his Grey Warden duty?

Please, do not try to couch this in terms of law and order.  It sounds ridiculous.  It is a naked power grab on behalf of Anora.  Though as an example of how capricious and ruthless justice would be under her rule, it is fitting for you try to frame it that way.  From other threads I know that you see a ruthless tyrant as being the best profile for a leader to usher in "civilization."