965 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I am curios what Alistair would have done had Riordan decided to do just that...I am certain it would have been a different situation.

Not sure about that but possible.

[M-Taylor]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

At the end of your post you state would have left yourself had you been in his shoes, just not become a drunk.

Yes, and how is that saying it's the right thing to do? I'm saying I understand it because I would likely do the same thing in his situation. I'm fully aware it's an immature/irrational thing to do, but people are different.

[Costin_Razvan]

It is irrelevant what rank the PC has. The Landmseet is behind YOU personally, not Alistair, not Eamon, not the GW Organization.

The armies you gather answer to you, not anyone else. Even if you had been exiled from the order, it would have mattered little.

Ranks are useless when you have power.

Ruthless under Anora? By all means believe that bull**** your sprouting. The fact of the matter is that Anora IS the best ruler along with the PC HNM ( Epilogue Cards make that very clear ). The only reason she would be a less then best choice is if she was solo and thus have no heir.

 Yes, and how is that saying it's the right thing to do? I'm saying I understand it because I would likely do the same thing in his situation. I'm fully aware it's an immature/irrational thing to do, but people are different.  

Fair enough. However I should say ( for others ) that understanding him for doing it, and justifying it are two very different things.

I understand why Alistair does it, but that does not go to any stretch for me justifying his course of action.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 05:01 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Alistair is cool and all but.. He becomes so obsessed by revenge in the end it is sad.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is irrelevant what rank the PC has. The Landmseet is behind YOU personally, not Alistair, not Eamon, not the GW Organization.

The armies you gather answer to you, not anyone else. Even if you had been exiled from the order, it would have mattered little.

Ranks are useless when you have power.

Hence why I said, it is a naked exercise of power.  Thank you for illustrating my point further.

Ruthless under Anora? By all means believe that bull**** your sprouting. The fact of the matter is that Anora IS the best ruler along with the PC HNM ( Epilogue Cards make that very clear ). The only reason she would be a less then best choice is if she was solo and thus have no heir.

I believe it is Alistair + Anora who usher in the Golden Age, definitively.  Anora + HNM "may" do so.  And I am speaking to the character of the person, not the epilogues which really say very little.

[Costin_Razvan]

He was always obsessed with it...right from that moment outside Flemeth's Hut.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

You know - if the game was totally open ended my canon character would've flat out said to Alistair, "You know if Duncan were still alive he'd tell you we need all the allies we can get.  If you honor his memory, you would stand by this because it's what wardens do.  Now sack up, buddy.  Or should we do what your hero Duncan did to Ser Jory?"

It is not possible to say what Duncan would have done, so adding to him to the argument for either sparing Loghain or executing Alistair is specious.

[Costin_Razvan]

Why would it be? If this argument is based upon our opinion of what we feel regarding certain characters then why should our opinion of what Duncan would have done be ignored, given what we believe about him.

He was a very pragmatic man, not ruthless, but pragmatic. As is Anora. Killing Alistair is not ruthlessness it's pragmatism.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 05:09 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Why would it be? If this argument is based upon our opinion of what we feel regarding certain characters then why should our opinion of what Duncan would have done be ignored, given what we believe about him.

Duncan would know about the sacrifice. Duncan also knows how to do the Joining.

Would he recruit Loghain just because he can? Unlikely, why take such a risk? He'd recruit other people if necessary.

Gaider once said, Duncan wouldn't even bother to save Ferelden. He would head to Orlais and join forces with the Orlesian Wardens, waiting for Ferelden to fall.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2010 - 05:14 .

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I have no idea where you are coming from or how I got involved in your "argument".  I was just making an observation.

But since you said it's not possible to say what Duncan would've done . . . it's not possible to say what ANYBODY would've done to an absolute certainty.  So if you want that "rule" placed on forum discussions, we can just stop typing and shut the forum down.

Rule?  Say what you like, I'm not the forum police.  I am simply pointing out that what a dead guy would/ would not do is pure speculation and thus not the strongest argument for or against anything.

[Giggles_Manically]

This topic is boring so I post this:

[nos_astra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
This topic is boring so I post this:

It's so boring you feel the terrible urge to come back.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ BigBad. And what if that Warden that they let leave decides to tell everyone about the joining? What then? Wouldn't that compromise their secrecy? It potentially does. Thus yes, that deeserter can be killed for the same charge.

And yet when the subject of Loghain's possible desertion once made Grey Warden is raised, Riordan doesn't tell simply "oh then we kill him (so he doesn't spread our secrets)" He instead claims that it does not matter because as Grey Warden he'll wind up in the Deep Roads anyway, eventually. That more than strongly implies he was fine with the idea of rebellious Grey Warden Loghain on the loose, even knowing first-hand Loghain considers Grey Wardens a foreign disesase that should be eradicated without mercy.

So i'd reckon if you try to execute Alistair for that "crime", you're pretty much being "more greywardenish than grey wardens", to misuse a known saying.

[KnightofPhoenix]

M-Taylor wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Then he could have gone to the Orlesian Wardens, instead of just leave.

But your whole argument is that he does leave? What would it matter if he went to Orelsia(spelling?)? He would still be deserting his comrades and fleeing from the Blight? What he does with his own pixel life is his own choice, I thought your argument was that you're pissy at him for leaving *during* the Blight?

It matters a whole deal. If he had asked to go to the Orlesian Wardens and request their support, and come with them when they do come to Ferelden, that would have been a vastly different than abandoning the fight completely and becoming a pathetic drunk.

I would have still been pissed off had he done that, but at least he would still be participating in the war effort, by going to bring reinforcements. But just leave like that and turn his back completely to the Blight with no concern at all to anyone but his own selfish emotions? That I cannot forgive.

[Ash Wind]

I was disappointed in Alistair's choice. The biggest issue for me was his just quitting.



I can fully understand him feeling betrayed by the PC if you choose to spare Loghain, and wanting nothing further to do with him or her if you do.



But he just quits and depending on whether he's hardened or not, sits on his throne or a bar stool while the final battle rages.



I can appreciate the Devs wanted us to make a choice, but IMO, it would seem more 'in character' for Alistair to show up in the battle with the AD, not under PC control, but like Arl Eamon or Irving show up, fighting for his kingdom or his country.



If you've put him on the throne, it seems a bizzare choice that as your first act as King you choose to sit out the climatic battle that will decide the fate of your kingdom, especially when you are one of only a very few individuals available that are capable of delivering the killing blow and truly ending the blight.

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is irrelevant what rank the PC has. The Landmseet is behind YOU personally, not Alistair, not Eamon, not the GW Organization.

The armies you gather answer to you, not anyone else. Even if you had been exiled from the order, it would have mattered little.

Actually, no. The armies you gather answer to Grey Wardens, based on the treaties made with the order. You can witness them charge the darkspawn in response to Alistair's command (or Anora's if Alistair isn't present) And they do so with Riordan leading them, not the PC. In fact, don't know if you've noticed but since the attack on the city gates the PC falls smoothly into just following Riordan's orders -- you don't get any say about the tactics he suggests, and are only left small leeway in whether you want to tackle the archdemon's commanders in the city beforehand.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
So i'd reckon if you try to execute Alistair for that "crime", you're pretty much being "more greywardenish than grey wardens", to misuse a known saying.

Well considering the fact that Riordan is less than impressive when it comes to Grey Warden matters and that he leaves everything up to you, I can see how a hardcore Grey Warden character would execute him for that. And it would be valid.

But my chracter didn't do it for that reason.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is irrelevant what rank the PC has. The Landmseet is behind YOU personally, not Alistair, not Eamon, not the GW Organization.

The armies you gather answer to you, not anyone else. Even if you had been exiled from the order, it would have mattered little.

Actually, no. The armies you gather answer to Grey Wardens, based on the treaties made with the order. You can witness them charge the darkspawn in response to Alistair's command (or Anora's if Alistair isn't present) And they do so with Riordan leading them, not the PC. In fact, don't know if you've noticed but since the attack on the city gates the PC falls smoothly into just following Riordan's orders -- you don't get any say about the tactics he suggests, and are only left small leeway in whether you want to tackle the archdemon's commanders in the city beforehand.

No, in the Landsmeet, the PC is declared general of Ferelden's armies, whether by Anora or Alistair.
The PC couldn't make a speech because pof game limitations.
As for Riordan, he was not commanding you. He says "the choice is yours", he is merely giving an advice. The PC followed it because of game limitations. They couldn't let us decide strategies and tactics.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It matters a whole deal. If he had asked to go to the Orlesian Wardens and request their support, and come with them when they do come to Ferelden, that would have been a vastly different than abandoning the fight completely and becoming a pathetic drunk.

I would have still been pissed off had he done that, but at least he would still be participating in the war effort, by going to bring reinforcements. But just leave like that and turn his back completely to the Blight with no concern at all to anyone but his own selfish emotions? That I cannot forgive.

At the time you chop his head off, you have no idea what he will eventually do.  So your execution is a bit pre-emptive.  Even if he were to lay it all out for you ("I'm going to go become a drunk now"), a decent person, let alone a good leader, would recognize that he is speaking in anger.

Similarly, I would not support chopping Anora's head off at the Landsmeet even after her "if you think I will swear that oath" tantrum, when she deserves it.  Alistair is right to put her in the Tower, even if he didn't declare her as heir, and give her another chance after the emotions of the Landsmeet have cooled down and the Blight has been defeated to swear fealty.  Even that is risking a challenge to his rule, but it's the right thing to do.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, in the Landsmeet, the PC is declared general of Ferelden's armies, whether by Anora or Alistair.
The PC couldn't make a speech because pof game limitations.
 

After the resolution of these other things we are talking about.  You do not have any authority at the time Riordan brings up the issue of recruiting Loghain.  Although if you are planning to make yourself prince consort, then it could be argued that you're anticipating your authority.  That is how I see it when I have Alistair duel Loghain and he chops his head off.  Technically he is not king at that point and doesn't have the authority to unilaterally execute anyone, but since he's going to be king anyway, my PC would still support him.

[Costin_Razvan]

Duncan would know about the sacrifice. Duncan also knows how to do the Joining.

Would he recruit Loghain just because he can? Unlikely, why take such a risk? He'd recruit other people if necessary.

Your missing an important part about the whole recruitment of the Wardens, that each joining takes a single drop of Archdemon blood. I would imagine that after almost 400 years since the last Blight the supplies would be quite low.

As such, it is important that you can recruit those you are absolutely certain will survive the Joining, not to make sure they survive but so that the precious blood isn't wasted, and even then they can still die. Loghain certainly fits the criteria as a very accomplished warrior.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 06:19 .