965 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

I don't understand why if I spare Loghain, that somehow means that I do not understand or that I have trivialized Alistair's argument against Loghain. If I give Alistair the benefit of a doubt, and allow for that he might be arguing against sparing someone who is a high risk (rather than Alistair's mostly arguing the case of his revenge), I agree that he has a good point that Loghain is a risk, but I don't agree that he is an unforgivably high risk. Do I think that Alistair has no argument, and that he's being unreasonable? Right up to the point where he threatens to quit, no. I think that it would be equally stupid if I *didn't* consider that Loghain may very well prove to be a power-hungry liar after all.



Do I understand his wanting revenge? Yes, of course I do. Do I trivialize it in my argument for sparing Loghain? Perhaps I do, to an extent. Alistair's demanding revenge trivializes my argument, too. Alistair is not a robot, and I don't blame him for being upset. I do blame him for abandoning me and Ferelden. I don't think I'm judging him any more or less unfairly than he is judging me, at that point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
At the time you chop his head off, you have no idea what he will eventually do.  So your execution is a bit pre-emptive.  Even if he were to lay it all out for you ("I'm going to go become a drunk now"), a decent person, let alone a good leader, would recognize that he is speaking in anger.

He declared his intentions to desert. To just leave. If the game allowed me to slap some sense into him, I would have. But since there was not an option to make him stay and cool off, or put him in prison until he comes to his senses. Yes, the execution was pre-emptive, to stop a desertion from the army that was gathered under my command. A good leader cannot afford to look weak in front of the Landsmeet, not when he is planing to be King Consort. An act of desertion from his army was happening right in front of him and thus execution was in order.

And before you go "what about Loghain?" again.
A- Loghain was not udner his command
B- Loghain deserted the king, not the nation. For strategic and military reasons
C- If you say that Loghain betrayed you in Ostagar in the Landsmeet, you lose points because they don't believe you. Not fully at least. So it's a non-issue politically speaking.
D- Loghain was punished by stripping him of all his titles and rank.
E- Loghain was being conscripted, which wipes his seeming crimes clear. The same could not be done to Alsitair. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 06:24 .

[Swoo]

Just a question since this has gravitated towards Loghain and choices in the Landsmeet. Why did you spare him as a Human Noble?



I'm currently in the middle of a HN Rogue play-through, and I'm thinking of either sparing him for the Redeemer ending, or letting Alistair sacrifice himself, and I'm hitting a moral quandary about the whole situation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, in the Landsmeet, the PC is declared general of Ferelden's armies, whether by Anora or Alistair.
The PC couldn't make a speech because pof game limitations.
 

After the resolution of these other things we are talking about.  You do not have any authority at the time Riordan brings up the issue of recruiting Loghain.  Although if you are planning to make yourself prince consort, then it could be argued that you're anticipating your authority.  That is how I see it when I have Alistair duel Loghain and he chops his head off.  Technically he is not king at that point and doesn't have the authority to unilaterally execute anyone, but since he's going to be king anyway, my PC would still support him.

The same could be said about anticipating an authority of being general, which was a main purpose of the landsmeet. To put you in charge.

But yes, my character was planing to be King Consort.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As such, it is important that you can recruit those you are absolutely certain will survive the Joining, not to make sure they survive but so that the precious blood isn't wasted, and even then they can still die. Loghain certainly fits the criteria as a very accomplished warrior.

He's also old.  Duncan tells you that he wants to recruit you because you are young, skilled, and eager for battle.  Not a washed-up former-hero-turned-disastrous-politician.

[BeautyoftheBeast]

Astranagant wrote...

The problem I have with Alistair's reaction after the duel is that he's flat out abandoning his duty and betraying the oath he made to Duncan and the Wardens.

Hanz54321 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

I believe that you would get more of a discussion in the Alistair thread.

I also believe that a person's upbringing is not an excuse for the way they act.

You know nothing about human development then.  You really think you'd be the same person you are today if you had been taught different values, if you had been born in poverty instead of middle class, or if you had been born rich instead of poor (I don't know your background).  Or say you'd been permanently disabled.  You don't think you would see the world differently?

That's a fools point of view as black and white as Alistair's views on right and wrong.

Who we are is mostly luck.  Where we were born and raised (societal influences) and who we were born too (parent education and genetics).

Actually, modern science has found that a significant amount of who you are is genetic.

They've done studies, for example, on identical twins who were seperated at birth and raised by different families, and a startlingly large number of them pursued nearly identical paths in life. One of the most famous examples is a pair of seperated twins who both became firefighters, both married women with a specific appearance, both had extremely similar personality and mannerisms, etc., despite being raised by very different families and under very different circumstances.

If you take a course in Psychology (as a physical/biological science,) you'll hear a lot about it in the Nature/Nurture debate.

As I've taken many courses in Psychology (being a graduate in Psychology and Sociology)- your premise that "modern science has found that significant amount of who you are is genetic" is quite frankly, a load of bull, considering there are just as many studies in Child Development studying the effects of an adverse environment on development. There really is no such thing as a Nature/Nurture debate- both work hand-in-hand.

Some people may have higher resiliancy to having a negative home environment, but others may not. Twin studies are all well and good- but many of those cases are uncommon, if rare. There are many more studies that contradict that everything is genetic. Take the Wild Boy of Avignon, or studies of the girl named Genie who were both raised in a animalistic environment and unable to obtain more than the basic use of language. By your account, because most things are "genetic," they would have been able to overcome their animalistic behavior and learn the difference between right and wrong- They didn't.

Or try examining Autistic children and their home environment. There are a lot of studies showing that having an enriched environment leads to being able to developmentally function in society. Leaving it up to genetics would anger a lot of parents, which would include my parents as my brother is Autistic.

So your conclusion based on rare evidence on twin studies is actually laughable in the Psychology community. Try tying it all back to the fact that Nature and Nurture are all related- not separate entities.

Modifié par BeautyoftheBeast, 06 juin 2010 - 06:31 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I think Knight has pointed out his reasons for sparring Loghain very clearly enough, but let me reiterative them.



1:) He did not believe Loghain to be responsible for Highever

2:) He agreed that the retreat at Ostagar was necessary.

3:) He understood the need for the slavery and for making Howe his right hand man.

4:) He is marrying Anora, and I dunno about you, but I would not kill my future wife's husband, if I wanted to have a good relationship with her that is.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


As for Riordan, he was not commanding you. He says "the choice is yours", he is merely giving an advice. The PC followed it because of game limitations. They couldn't let us decide strategies and tactics.

Well.... it could also be argued that Alistair only forfeits the decision making in the game to you because of game limitations. Can one really argue the PC's out-ranking Alistair due to this technicality and then turn around and say Riordan doesn't out-rank you for the same reasons?

[Sarah1281]

I still don't see why people don't see his point of view. Maybe I'm being arrogant, but would you accept the guy who murdered your 2nd family into the remains of your 2nd family? Truth be told, I honestly would of probably done the same as Alistair. I wouldn't want to serve with someone like that.

I don't think people can't understand Alistair's point of view, they just don't see his reasoning as good enough to abandon his people and his duty during a Blight.



And Loghain didn't murder the Grey Wardens. He left them to die when he retreated which may or may not have been necessary to ensure the survival of himself and his army given how unexpectedly large and organized the enemy at Ostagar was but he hardly murdered them personally or ordered them killed like Howe does the Couslands.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


As for Riordan, he was not commanding you. He says "the choice is yours", he is merely giving an advice. The PC followed it because of game limitations. They couldn't let us decide strategies and tactics.

Well.... it could also be argued that Alistair only forfeits the decision making in the game to you because of game limitations. Can one really argue the PC's out-ranking Alistair due to this technicality and then turn around and say Riordan doesn't out-rank you for the same reasons?

Except that Alistair explicitly tells you that he is not good at being a leader and he explains why he forfeits all the decision making to you. So there is a reason. Perhaps born of out game limitations, of course. But that's still in-character for Alistair.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, in the Landsmeet, the PC is declared general of Ferelden's armies, whether by Anora or Alistair.

Which is only part of the whole force. Ser Cauthrien being in charge of Loghain's guard didn't make her able to go over heads of Loghain and Cailan as far as chain of command went.

As for Riordan, he was not commanding you. He says "the choice is yours", he is merely giving an advice.

 He says "the choice is yours" regarding the archdemon's generals. That's the leeway you're left i'd mentioned. If you try to discuss the plan itself it's rather obvious he isn't willing to give you any freedom:

PC: This seems like a very risky plan.
Riordan: Heh, aren't they all?

You can try to excuse it as nothing but "game limitations" but fact remains that at the same time Riordan is still technically your senior Warden and this can be very well the reason why you aren't left any say regarding the matter. And if you try to ignore his instructions then it's clear case of insubordination, game limitations or not.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 juin 2010 - 06:29 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, in the Landsmeet, the PC is declared general of Ferelden's armies, whether by Anora or Alistair.
The PC couldn't make a speech because pof game limitations.
 

After the resolution of these other things we are talking about.  You do not have any authority at the time Riordan brings up the issue of recruiting Loghain.  Although if you are planning to make yourself prince consort, then it could be argued that you're anticipating your authority.  That is how I see it when I have Alistair duel Loghain and he chops his head off.  Technically he is not king at that point and doesn't have the authority to unilaterally execute anyone, but since he's going to be king anyway, my PC would still support him.

The same could be said about anticipating an authority of being general, which was a main purpose of the landsmeet. To put you in charge.

But yes, my character was planing to be King Consort.

The Landsmeet is about settling the ruler, and the ruler appoints his or her general.  This comes back to the fact that you and Alistair are peers.  There is nothing that sets you above him in authority or standing.  In fact, as claimant to the throne, he has higher standing than simply a Grey Warden like your PC.

Executing him is eliminating a potential rival to Anora's power.  Understandable as power grab, but the idea that you are somehow exercising justice is ridiculous.  The Landsmeet has been a trial of Loghain's crimes.  Alistair gets no trial, just your future prince consort's arbitrary, backstabbing ruthlessness.

[Costin_Razvan]

He's also old. Duncan tells you that he wants to recruit you because you are young, skilled, and eager for battle. Not a washed-up former-hero-turned-disastrous-politician.

Perhaps so, but I could count on my hands the number of NPCs in the game that probably could survive the joining and are NOT in positions of leadership ( such as Kardol, Bhelen etc. ) and are NOT your companions.

Besides Kylon and Jowan, who is there really? Ignacio, the Blackstone Irregulars Leader? K and D? Dwynn, Murdock and Ser Perth, Cauthrien?

That's about it really.

  Understandable as power grab, but the idea that you are somehow exercising justice is ridiculous

Alistair's execution is made at the point the PC is ALREADY acknowledged as Anora's Consort, so he certainly is exercising his rights.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 06:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
Which is only part of the whole force. Ser Cauthrien being in charge of Loghain's guard didn't make her able to go over heads of Loghain and Cailan as far as chain of command went.

If Alsitair was not being made king, then he is clearly under your chain of command. You being future general of Ferelden.

tmp7704 wrote...
You can try to excuse it as nothing but "game limitations" but fact remains that at the same time Riordan is still technically your senior Warden and this can be very well the reason why you aren't left any say regarding the matter. And if you try to ignore his instructions then it's clear case of insubordination, game limitations or not.

I find the reason weak. It's clear in the landsmeet that the general is the PC, not Riordan. But let's assume that's the case. And?
Riordan explicitly lets you do what you want in the landsmeet. And it's there that you are made general and King-Consort potentially, which he doesn't stand against.

Riordan also explictly tells you that he doesn't want you to join his scouting, because he doesn't want to deprave the army of their commander and that's before the Landsmeet.

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Besides Kylon and Jowan, who is there really? Ignacio, the Blackstone Irregulars Leader? K and D? Dwynn, Murdock and Ser Perth, Cauthrien?

That's about it really.

Pfft, Shianni would probably drink all these guys under the table at the Joining. She's elf version of Oghren, only more awesome.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
The Landsmeet is about settling the ruler, and the ruler appoints his or her general.  This comes back to the fact that you and Alistair are peers.  There is nothing that sets you above him in authority or standing.  In fact, as claimant to the throne, he has higher standing than simply a Grey Warden like your PC.

Executing him is eliminating a potential rival to Anora's power.  Understandable as power grab, but the idea that you are somehow exercising justice is ridiculous.  The Landsmeet has been a trial of Loghain's crimes.  Alistair gets no trial, just your future prince consort's arbitrary, backstabbing ruthlessness.

And it was clear who the general was going to be. Even Riorda, prior to the Landsmeet tells you not to join him on his scouting because he doesn't want to depracve the army you gathered from a commander (you).

And I never saw Alsitair as a peer. He tells me to lead. He tells me he sucks at leading. He leaves all the decision making to me. Thus it's his own admittance that he is not a peer. And certainly not an equal, whether in standing or capacity. I very much treat him as well as the others like Sten wants me to. Insurbodination is not to be tolerated. That's a reason why I love Sten, he knows who is boss, even when he challenges you.

You can think it's ruthless all you want, but that's how I see it. I never saw Alistair as a peer. You can see it that way and it would be valid. But I saw him as a subordinate like all others.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 06:42 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Blasted.....how could I forget HER of all people?!

 yuo can think it's ruthless all you want, but that's how I see it. I never saw Alistair as a peer. You can see it that way and it would be valid. But I saw him as a subordinate like all others.

A chain of command must exist, or else EVERYTHING crumbles into the dust. You are Warden Commander in all but name.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 06:41 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I never saw Alsitair as a peer. He tells me to lead. He tells me he sucks at leading. He leaves all the decision making to me. Thus it's his own admittance that he is not a peer. and certainly noit an equal, whether in standing or capacity. I very much treat him as well as the others like Sten wants me to. Insurbodination is not to be tolerated. That's a reason whyy I love Sten, he knows who is boss, even when he challenges you.

yuo can think it's ruthless all you want, but that's how I see it. I never saw Alistair as a peer. You can see it that way and it would be valid. But I saw him as a subordinate like all others.

And now we come back to the Mary Sue PC.  You're the best illustration of it that I've seen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
And now we come back to the Mary Sue PC.  You're the best illustration of it that I've seen.

Because I think my PC is better than Alistair? Please enough of that childish argument. It's his own admittance that he is not good at being a leader.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Blasted.....how could I forget HER of all people?!

 yuo can think it's ruthless all you want, but that's how I see it. I never saw Alistair as a peer. You can see it that way and it would be valid. But I saw him as a subordinate like all others.

A chain of command must exist, or else EVERYTHING crumbles into the dust. You are Warden Commander in all but name.

What a very old-fashioned and utterl wrong position.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I find the reason weak. It's clear in the landsmeet that the general is the PC, not Riordan. But let's assume that's the case. And?
Riordan explicitly lets you do what you want in the landsmeet. And it's there that you are made general and King-Consort potentially, which he doesn't stand against.

Why would he want to stand against it? That's internal Ferelden bickering and politics and if you can get it sorted out then all benefit from it. It doesn't change fact as Grey Warden you're still going to answer to your senior Warden as far as fighting the Blight goes.

Riordan also explictly tells you that he doesn't want you to join his scouting, because he doesn't want to deprave the army of their commander and that's before the Landsmeet.

It's correct, you (and Alistair) are the commanders of army when Riordan isn't present, so all of you departing would make little sense. But once you're in Denerim it's no longer "you can't go with me because you're the commander". Instead it's "you can't go with me because then archdemon would sense us early".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Blasted.....how could I forget HER of all people?!

 yuo can think it's ruthless all you want, but that's how I see it. I never saw Alistair as a peer. You can see it that way and it would be valid. But I saw him as a subordinate like all others.

A chain of command must exist, or else EVERYTHING crumbles into the dust. You are Warden Commander in all but name.

What a very old-fashioned and utterl wrong position.

Yera, so says the anarchist

[Tirigon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pfft, Shianni would probably drink all these guys under the table at the Joining. She's elf version of Oghren, only more awesome.

Shianni should really become a warden. She´s the best NPC in the game.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I never saw Alsitair as a peer. He tells me to lead. He tells me he sucks at leading. He leaves all the decision making to me. Thus it's his own admittance that he is not a peer. and certainly noit an equal, whether in standing or capacity. I very much treat him as well as the others like Sten wants me to. Insurbodination is not to be tolerated. That's a reason whyy I love Sten, he knows who is boss, even when he challenges you.

yuo can think it's ruthless all you want, but that's how I see it. I never saw Alistair as a peer. You can see it that way and it would be valid. But I saw him as a subordinate like all others.

And now we come back to the Mary Sue PC.  You're the best illustration of it that I've seen.

I never saw Alistair as a peer, either. He forfeited the decision making to me, dropped all of that responsiblity on me. Just because you are in control does not make you Mary Sue.

[Costin_Razvan]

Old Fashioned position that still rules the world today.

You are an anarchrist, but I am realist. I know the world works based on some principles and I stick with the principles, not dream about something that is not there.

If Anarchists had their way, then we all would have descended into the stone age by now. Or what is it that you REALLY think would happen if we lost our governments?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 juin 2010 - 06:47 .