965 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And now we come back to the Mary Sue PC.  You're the best illustration of it that I've seen.

Because I think my PC is better than Alistair? Please enough of that childish argument. It's his own admittance that he is not good at being a leader.

And that gives you the power of life or death over him?  LOL  Okay.  We differ on what constitutes "better," at least as regards personal character.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yera, so says the anarchist

That doesn´t make it less true, however.

[Herr Uhl]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yera, so says the anarchist

That doesn´t make it less true, however.

It really does so, but that is a whole other discussion.

[Costin_Razvan]

And that gives you the power of life or death over him? LOL Okay. We differ on what constitutes "better," at least as regards personal character.

You are given the power of life or death regarding many people in the game. Alistair is no different, and btw....you don't execute him, Anora does. You simply have the option to let it happen or ask her to let him go.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...
Why would he want to stand against it? That's internal Ferelden bickering and politics and if you can get it sorted out then all benefit from it. It doesn't change fact as Grey Warden you're still going to answer to your senior Warden as far as fighting the Blight goes.

If Riordan wanted to exercize his power, he would have forced the Loghain issue. He didn't. He left it to the PC.
But what I was answering to is your false assumption that the PC is not the commander of the army, which he is. Even if, let's assume for the sake of argument, that Riordan commands him to do certain things. (Which I see only as advice).

tmp7704 wrote...

It's correct, you (and Alistair) are the commanders of army when Riordan isn't present, so all of you departing would make little sense. But once you're in Denerim it's no longer "you can't go with me because you're the commander". Instead it's "you can't go with me because then archdemon would sense us early".

He did not mention Alsitair as commander. Not once. He says "you", when you request to join him.

But again, this is not really relevent. The fact of the matter is, if Alsitair was never planned to be made king, then he falls under your chain of command. At least, you can see it that way and it would be valid. You can also consider him your equal and it would be valid.

I do not consider him an equal. Especially not when my PC is being made King Consort.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2010 - 06:50 .

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And now we come back to the Mary Sue PC.  You're the best illustration of it that I've seen.

Because I think my PC is better than Alistair? Please enough of that childish argument. It's his own admittance that he is not good at being a leader.

And that gives you the power of life or death over him?  LOL  Okay.  We differ on what constitutes "better," at least as regards personal character.

I have to agree with KoP here. The PC is clearly superior to Alistair.
But then, the PC is clearly superior to EVERYONE in the game.
I mean - you defeat a tower full of abomination an entire army of templars couldn´t defeat.
You end the curse of the Werewolves singlehandedly, or wipe out an entire people.
You accomplish in the Deep Roads what the Legion of the Dead and Branka didn´t manage in 2 years.
You retrieve a fortress lost for centuries and defeat a demon even a powerful bloodmage couldn´t stop (Warden´s Keep)
You are the best fighter / mage in the entire universe.

Anyone NOT playing a Mary Sue PC is fooling him/herself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And now we come back to the Mary Sue PC.  You're the best illustration of it that I've seen.

Because I think my PC is better than Alistair? Please enough of that childish argument. It's his own admittance that he is not good at being a leader.

And that gives you the power of life or death over him?  LOL  Okay.  We differ on what constitutes "better," at least as regards personal character.

When he seeks to desert? Of course.

[Costin_Razvan]

Anyone NOT playing a Mary Sue PC is fooling him/herself.

Yeah....I was thinking of saying that. No matter what decisions you make, and some can be utterly retarded, you can and will win.



Knight: 'Tis funny how we always end up under the same argument. It's like two brick walls staring at one another and refusing to budge."laughs"

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...
Anyone NOT playing a Mary Sue PC is fooling him/herself.

Given my very limited idea of what constitutes being a Mary Sue and variations thereof, I am inclined to believe that  this is probably true.

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

Anyone NOT playing a Mary Sue PC is fooling him/herself.

Because the game sets you up as a little god who does not need anyone else to maintain a divine level of AWESOME does not mean that you have to roleplay in kind.  Part of this is simply how the game has to run- the player is making decisions and the game has to recognize these- and part of it is no doubt stroking the player ego.  You want your avatar to be that unstoppable and BAMF.  Obviously, some do roleplay that their punk Cousland or Brosca or Tabris runs with the gods and therefore it's appropriate for them to act like little Neros, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Knight: 'Tis funny how we always end up under the same argument. It's like two brick walls staring at one another and refusing to budge."laughs"

I think it has to do with the fact that our two home countries are not so distant lol. Maybe it's people's mentalities.
I know that if Alsitair was living with my people, he would not be seen in great light.

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Anyone NOT playing a Mary Sue PC is fooling him/herself.

Given my very limited idea of what constitutes being a Mary Sue and variations thereof, I am inclined to believe that  this is probably true.

Mary Sue
Mary Sue Traits

Of course, I'm disinclined to believe that simply being an extremely skilled fighter with some very skilled backup makes you a Mary Sue or that Alistair putting you in charge making you in charge does.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Anyone NOT playing a Mary Sue PC is fooling him/herself.

Because the game sets you up as a little god who does not need anyone else to maintain a divine level of AWESOME does not mean that you have to roleplay in kind.  Part of this is simply how the game has to run- the player is making decisions and the game has to recognize these- and part of it is no doubt stroking the player ego.  You want your avatar to be that unstoppable and BAMF.  Obviously, some do roleplay that their punk Cousland or Brosca or Tabris runs with the gods and therefore it's appropriate for them to act like little Neros, too.

A Mary Sue doesn't have to be a holier than thou type. Your character can be a sad, broken mess and you can still RP who does and does not love you despite that you are oh so helpless and victimized, and for some reason everyone falls into your leadership regardless. It's the same thing.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Mary Sue
Mary Sue Traits

Of course, I'm disinclined to believe that simply being an extremely skilled fighter with some very skilled backup makes you a Mary Sue or that Alistair putting you in charge making you in charge does.

• What personality? In these cases, it's fairly blatant the
  author is just writing the character for amazing stuff to happen to
  instead of a character that actually exists as a person. Obviously,
  this is only a Mary Sue
  trait if what happens gives the character special
  powers, fantastic romances, or somehow lets her be a big
  damned heroine; otherwise it's just another faceless
  first-person perspective.
• If there is a personality, it's who
  the author wishes they could be, never who they are. While this is a
  regular feature in most original characters, Mary Sue
  takes it to the extreme.
• Highly
  persuasive, regardless of the actual content of their
  conversations. Everyone finds her opinions are just better than their
  own - even
  when they're usually stubborn bastards. This is especially likely
  in an Author
  Tract.
• Friend
  To All Living Things. It's becoming gradually less common as
  authors catch on
  to the Mary
  Sue classic framework.
• Is either brave and
  cheerful (despite
  her past), or unnecessarily
  mopey and depressed.
• Incorruptible.
  In fact, unaware of the possibility of temptation.
• Occasionally a complete
  ****, especially when they're supposed to be all of the
  above. Nobody
  will call
  them out on it.
• Her "major
  flaws" will be stubbornness and a bad temper. These will only ever
  help her, never hurt her — because she's always right, so whatever cause
  she dedicates herself to with such stubbornness will be a good cause,
  and whoever she loses her temper with will deserve it.

All true.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Tirigon. Not necessarily. On all points, Arcturus does not qualify as a Mary Sue and he will be the first to say that he can make mistakes and that he can be corrupted.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Knight: 'Tis funny how we always end up under the same argument. It's like two brick walls staring at one another and refusing to budge."laughs"

I think it has to do with the fact that our two home countries are not so distant lol. Maybe it's people's mentalities.
I know that if Alsitair was living with my people, he would not be seen in great light.

Too true. People in our countries endure a hard life, things like idealism and childish behavior are greatly scolded upon. Realism is a trait that marks most of my people. On the other hand, people in western countries live sheltered lives.

It might also have to with the fact we study similar things. I go for military history ( which deals quite a bit in politics ) while you deal with political science.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Tirigon. Not necessarily. On all points, Arcturus does not qualify as a Mary Sue and he will be the first to say that he can make mistakes and that he can be corrupted.

What mistakes does he make? What flaws does he have?

You keep telling us that he's highly intelligent, pragmatic, emotionally completely stable, politically savvy and merciful to his enemies (not so merciful to former companions but you argue that this is not a flaw).

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2010 - 07:10 .

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

Because the game sets you up as a little god who does not need anyone else to maintain a divine level of AWESOME does not mean that you have to roleplay in kind.  Part of this is simply how the game has to run- the player is making decisions and the game has to recognize these- and part of it is no doubt stroking the player ego.  You want your avatar to be that unstoppable and BAMF.  Obviously, some do roleplay that their punk Cousland or Brosca or Tabris runs with the gods and therefore it's appropriate for them to act like little Neros, too.

It is very hard to roleplay other than the canon Mary Sue though.

For example my current PC was supposed to be a little childish, not taking anything serious and in general a bit like Cailan insofar that she would see it all as a bit of fun, and she should have a crush on Loghain because she reads so much about the hero of River Dane.

However, that just didn´t work, because 99% of all your dialogue options don´t fit. You always have the choice between "Paragon Badass Motherf*cker" and "Assclown Badass motherf*cker". Sometimes you get "Uh all sucks I don´t want this" and have to choose one of the first afterwards.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Tirigon. Not necessarily. On all points, Arcturus does not qualify as a Mary Sue and he will be the first to say that he can make mistakes and that he can be corrupted.

Who is Arcturus?

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If Riordan wanted to exercize his power, he would have forced the Loghain issue. He didn't. He left it to the PC.
But what I was answering to is your false assumption that the PC is not the commander of the army, which he is.

Again, Loghain being part of Ferelden's internal bickering isn't exactly something for Riordan to need to pull rank over. Whether Loghain lives or dies doesn't seem to be matter of particular importance for him, and i can sympathize with that point of view. And again, the Landsmeet only results in the PC being made the general of Ferelden's own army. It has little if any impact on who gets to command the dwarves, the Dalish and the mages, as all of them respond to Grey Warden treaties which don't state "you will listen to so and so and only to them, not any other Grey Wardens" 

He did not mention Alsitair as commander. Not once. He says "you", when you request to join him.

I went to check that dialogue, and Riordan says he doesn't want to deprive the armies you gathered of a commander. This hardly settles it as PC being the only person in charge of the soldiers, nor does it exclude Alistair from being a commander as well. After all if PC was the only one for the armies to respond to, wouldn't Riordan instead speak of "the commander" or "their commander" instead?

But again, this is not really relevent. The fact of the matter is, if Alsitair was never planned to be made king, then he falls under your chain of command.

No, since you get to command the army of Ferelden and Alistair is not part of that army. He's a Grey Warden.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Tirigon. Not necessarily. On all points, Arcturus does not qualify as a Mary Sue and he will be the first to say that he can make mistakes and that he can be corrupted.

I might argue against my characters being Mary Sue, however denial tends to be one of the major symptoms.

So I do not. Instead I'd argue that if my character does fit into that definition, then I am inclined to believe that most (if not all) characters also do.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

However, that just didn´t work, because 99% of all your dialogue options don´t fit. You always have the choice between "Paragon Badass Motherf*cker" and "Assclown Badass motherf*cker".

That... is freaking hilarious.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Tirigon. Not necessarily. On all points, Arcturus does not qualify as a Mary Sue and he will be the first to say that he can make mistakes and that he can be corrupted.

Who is Arcturus?

That's KoP's cannon human noble.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It might also have to with the fact we study similar things. I go for military history ( which deals quite a bit in politics ) while you deal with political science.

I studied medieval literature (German), so I don't have any trouble confessing to some romantic idealism.  It is certainly part of Alistair's appeal to me.  As I see it, as long as he can get the job done (and he does do this better with someone more pragmatic at his side, be it Anora or a PC consort or chancellor), then the fact that he is a bit naive, good-hearted and compassionate is a plus and not a minus.

As per Fiona in The Calling, when she discovers that "Maric the Savior" also happens to be a good man, she comments that Ferelden is luckier than most countries.

I would think that this is not a perspective that is singular to western culture.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 juin 2010 - 07:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Tirigon. Not necessarily. On all points, Arcturus does not qualify as a Mary Sue and he will be the first to say that he can make mistakes and that he can be corrupted.

What mistakes does he make? What flaws does he have?

Mistakes? Well seeing how the game is geared, there is no big mistake that can be made. But he would consider failing to forsee what happens to brother burkel as a mistake. He can make mistakes when dealing with Anora as her Consort, even if he plans not to. He made a mistake thinking Alsitair would never abandon Ferelden, which is a big mistake for him as he thinks himself a great judge of character.

Maybe he also thinks falling so madly in love with Morrigan to be a mistake. And an obstacle to his rule, as he can't bring himself to love Anora (not because of her, because he loves Morrigan still).

As for flaws. Well cold, calculating, ambitious, pragmatic. He doesnt' see them as flaws, but he knows they can be corrupted and lead him to disaster.