94 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

I take the Renegade option for a very simple reason. Despite Shepard's presence this is Zaeed's mission, he was the one hired, he's the one being paid, and he has taken Shepard and his team on as assistance (necessary assistance perhaps but still assistance). So since this is Zaeed's mission, he's calling the shots. Zaeed wants to abandon the workers to hunt for Vido, Shepard can, in his/her current position as second, offer an alternative but the decision is ultimately Zaeed's.



I take this attitude with pretty much all the Loyalty Missions (some exceptions apply). My squad is asking me for help, but in the end it's their rodeo.

[Markinator_123]

DPSSOC wrote...

I take the Renegade option for a very simple reason. Despite Shepard's presence this is Zaeed's mission, he was the one hired, he's the one being paid, and he has taken Shepard and his team on as assistance (necessary assistance perhaps but still assistance). So since this is Zaeed's mission, he's calling the shots. Zaeed wants to abandon the workers to hunt for Vido, Shepard can, in his/her current position as second, offer an alternative but the decision is ultimately Zaeed's.

I take this attitude with pretty much all the Loyalty Missions (some exceptions apply). My squad is asking me for help, but in the end it's their rodeo.

You let people push you around and people won't respect your leadership. Shepard is always in charge and Zaeed doing what he wants is not acceptable especially considering how selfish and dastardly his actions were.

[Nizzemancer]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I save the hostages even though i kill Balak in BDtS.

We know that the Blue Suns are an organisation with a command structure with ranks. Someone else will simply step into his position so there is no reason to prioritise his death aside from bending over backwards to accommodate a mercenary who refuses to follow orders and risks the mission. If i wanted to blow up the damn refinery i would used the Normandy to launch an orbital bombardment Zaeed.

Plothole: A cerberus frigate can't shoot down a Blue Sun shuttle?

If it were real I'd just have joker and EDI shoot him down while I went on my merry way to rescue the workers.

[Asheer_Khan]

Shandepared wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...


You let people push you around and people won't respect your leadership. Shepard is always in charge and Zaeed doing what he wants is not acceptable especially considering how selfish and dastardly his actions were.

Obviously he doesn't feel Shepard is in charge there.

But he learn pretty quick who wear pants in this "family"...

[JKoopman]

DPSSOC makes a good point. All this talk about "Shepard being in charge" fails to understand that Zorya is Zaeed's mission. It's his contract. Shepard is there for two reasons: to fulfill his/her recruitment arrangement with Zaeed and to earn his loyalty. Zorya is not Shepard's mission. He's simply there as support for Zaeed, and it's not illogical or shows lack of leadership ability to defer to Zaeed's judgement.

A renegade Shepard wouldn't be concerned with a few factory workers dying. His priority is completing his mission; his mission being stopping the Collectors. Securing Zaeed's loyalty and ensuring that he's in top form for the suicide mission is a step towards that, so it's not out of the question to me that a renegade at least would have no qualms about allowing Zaeed to "throw the mission" and chase after Vido.

The real question is why Zaeed wasn't just honest with Shepard from the start; "A condition of my recruitment is that you help me take out a man named Vido Santiago, who's holed up in a refinery on Zorya." It's pretty obvious after all that the only reason Zaeed picked up that mission was to take him out.

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 juin 2010 - 05:32 .

[Roachefort]

I agree with Zaeed, stopping Vido will do a lot more good in the long term than saving the workers. However, since it's his stupidity that puts me in the position of having to choose the first place, I punched him and called it even.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Wasn't the actual reason that they were there to save the workers? Zaeed says the company hired him to save the refinery and workers. Zaeed took it to take out Vido but his mission was still to save the workers regardless of what he'd wanted to do when he got there.

[JKoopman]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Wasn't the actual reason that they were there to save the workers? Zaeed says the company hired him to save the refinery and workers. Zaeed took it to take out Vido but his mission was still to save the workers regardless of what he'd wanted to do when he got there.

Officially, Zaeed's mission is to liberate the refinery (note: liberating the refinery doesn't necessarily require rescuing the hostages, and even if you take the renegade route the report still states that the mission was completed). However, your mission is to help Zaeed and earn his loyalty. If doing so requires ignoring the official mission, then that's what it takes. Ultimately, it can be seen as being Zaeed's choice. You're just his backup in that situation.

Modifié par JKoopman, 08 juin 2010 - 07:50 .

[DPSSOC]

Markinator_123 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

I take the Renegade option for a very simple reason. Despite Shepard's presence this is Zaeed's mission, he was the one hired, he's the one being paid, and he has taken Shepard and his team on as assistance (necessary assistance perhaps but still assistance). So since this is Zaeed's mission, he's calling the shots. Zaeed wants to abandon the workers to hunt for Vido, Shepard can, in his/her current position as second, offer an alternative but the decision is ultimately Zaeed's.

I take this attitude with pretty much all the Loyalty Missions (some exceptions apply). My squad is asking me for help, but in the end it's their rodeo.

You let people push you around and people won't respect your leadership. Shepard is always in charge and Zaeed doing what he wants is not acceptable especially considering how selfish and dastardly his actions were.

How is it letting people push me around?  If you come up to me and ask me to help you build your shed am I letting you push me around if I don't thump my chest and declare, "No, you will help me build your shed!" because that's all your proposing.

JKoopman wrote...
DPSSOC makes a good point. All this talk about "Shepard being in charge" fails to understand that Zorya is Zaeed's mission. It's his contract. Shepard is there for two reasons: to fulfill his/her recruitment arrangement with Zaeed and to earn his loyalty. Zorya is not Shepard's mission. He's simply there as support for Zaeed, and it's not illogical or shows lack of leadership ability to defer to Zaeed's judgement.

Exactly

JKoopman wrote...
The real question is why Zaeed wasn't just honest with Shepard from the start; "A condition of my recruitment is that you help me take out a man named Vido Santiago, who's holed up in a refinery on Zorya." It's pretty obvious after all that the only reason Zaeed picked up that mission was to take him out.

Probably because Shepard (or anyone really) is more likely to out and out say no if Zaeed presents the mission as, "Hey I need you to help me murder someone to settle a personal vendetta."

[Lellandra]

I didn't like Zaeed's attitude from the start. Then at the beginning of the mission he was already screwing up and doing whatever the hell he wanted I knew right there I didn't want him on my team.

I cleaned up his mess saving the workers and let Vido escape. I would have left him there if I could but I wasn't given the option, it was greyed out.

I never got his loyalty but I never took him anywhere anyways.

Modifié par Lellandra, 09 juin 2010 - 02:21 .

[skcih-deraj]

Well for me Zaeed is sun bathing on Zorya rigth now and I feel pretty good about it.

[Lemonwizard]

To those who are using the "It's Zaeed's mission, Shepard is just his back up" argument, I will just state that my Shepard does not give a damn, anybody on his team is going to do things his way or get kicked off the team.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Lt Davo wrote...

On my first three playthroughs, I saved the workers. On my fourth, I let them die and went after Vido. That choice was very unsatisfying. I've always argued that "renegade" and "evil" are different; that Shepard can either be a paragon hero or a renegade hero, but either way, he's still a hero. Letting the workers die isn't renegade; it's evil.

Even looking at it just from a standpoint of how the choice affects Zaeed's loyalty, I still think it's wrong. If you're on my team, you've got to play by my rules. The Zaeed who sets the factory on fire is a loose cannon, and I don't want him on my team or on my ship. He has to be taught to fall in line and follow my orders, otherwise he's liable to get me or my squad killed, or jeopardize the mission. Letting him get away with that stunt sends the wrong message about who's in command.

agree and agree

[Lt Davo]

DPSSOC wrote...

I take the Renegade option for a very simple reason. Despite Shepard's presence this is Zaeed's mission, he was the one hired, he's the one being paid, and he has taken Shepard and his team on as assistance (necessary assistance perhaps but still assistance). So since this is Zaeed's mission, he's calling the shots. Zaeed wants to abandon the workers to hunt for Vido, Shepard can, in his/her current position as second, offer an alternative but the decision is ultimately Zaeed's.

I take this attitude with pretty much all the Loyalty Missions (some exceptions apply). My squad is asking me for help, but in the end it's their rodeo.

All of the loyalty missions have a point where the squadmate has to make a decision. Miranda has to decide whether to kill Niket and whether to talk to Oriana. Mordin has to decide whether to kill Maelon and whether to destroy his data or keep it. In these moments, Shepard has the option of either standing by and letting his squadmate make the decision on their own, or influencing the outcome either through dialogue or an interrupt action. Though every situation is different, none of the squadmates - not even Jack - take action without at least giving Shepard a heads-up first.  The fact that it's their mission doesn't change who's in charge.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I think this is one of those decisions that can be right or wrong depending on how you justify them. Not much else to say, really.

[DPSSOC]

Lt Davo wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

I take the Renegade option for a very simple reason. Despite Shepard's presence this is Zaeed's mission, he was the one hired, he's the one being paid, and he has taken Shepard and his team on as assistance (necessary assistance perhaps but still assistance). So since this is Zaeed's mission, he's calling the shots. Zaeed wants to abandon the workers to hunt for Vido, Shepard can, in his/her current position as second, offer an alternative but the decision is ultimately Zaeed's.

I take this attitude with pretty much all the Loyalty Missions (some exceptions apply). My squad is asking me for help, but in the end it's their rodeo.

All of the loyalty missions have a point where the squadmate has to make a decision. Miranda has to decide whether to kill Niket and whether to talk to Oriana. Mordin has to decide whether to kill Maelon and whether to destroy his data or keep it. In these moments, Shepard has the option of either standing by and letting his squadmate make the decision on their own, or influencing the outcome either through dialogue or an interrupt action. Though every situation is different, none of the squadmates - not even Jack - take action without at least giving Shepard a heads-up first.  The fact that it's their mission doesn't change who's in charge.

Yes the squadmates look for Shepard's input, but it's still their decision, they still make it.  The only time the squadmates give up their right to choose is in Tali and Legion's missions.  The other squadmates look for Shepard's input, accept it, and go along with it.  Zaeed looks for Shepard's input, dismisses it, and makes his own damn choice.  Had Miranda decided not to talk to Oriana despite your suggestion would you have forceably dragged her over?  Had Mordin decided that the genophage needed to be destroyed and no potential benefit could outweigh the potential harm a cure could cause would you have pushed him away from the console and copied it yourself?

The squadmates look for Shepard's input and, more often than not, agree.  If they don't however do you disrespect them by implying they're too stupid to make their own decisions? 

[inversevideo]

When I first started playing ME2, I would always rescue the workers.

That is because, my ME1 persona was paragon or paragade, and leaving workers to die was wrong. You were essentially thrust into a situation similar to what Saren did to Anderson, except here you have a choice.



Now I take the renegade route.



Reason being, it is 17 renegade points, and I find, for whatever reason, that I cannot resolve the Jack Miranda fight as a paragon or paragade, even with a full bar; nor can I always be assured that I can resolve the Tali / Legion fight. However, as a Renegon, my Shep lets them know she is boss, and everyone is loyal, and even Kelham wets himself, when she says 'I'm a Spectre'.

And my Shep is by no means evil at the end. Her renegade bar is close to full, but her paragon bar is very high as well. I would say she is truly Renegon.



My 'in game' justification, for letting the workers die, is that they just resurrected my butt; snatched it back from the Grim Reaper, right out of cold storage; well an airless frigid planet anyway. I have a mission to track down Collectors, which is dangerous enough, and Zaheed goes and triggers gas explosions all over the refinery, a refinery crawling with 3 companies of Blue Sun mercs, which, for whatever reason, I have to make my way through said refinery and fight the mercs, to escape before the place comes down around me.



I have to weigh the possibility of jeopardizing my mission, by getting killed, or getting one or more of my specialists (crew) KIA or badly injured, against the possibly of condemning the human race to extinction at the claws of the Collectors. Do I save the few? And possibly jeopardize the overall success of my mission? Or do I focus my resources on saving the many from the Collectors?



To paraphrase something the Salarian Councilor said to me, in ME1, after the Feros mission. 'Being Spectre means that sometimes you may be called upon to sacrifice some for the greater good, I hope you are able to make that sacrifice should the need arise'.



So rather than run around an unfamiliar refinery, looking for valves to shutoff and risking being caught in an explosion at every turn, possibly injuring or killing my self, and some of my away team, and still left with the prospect of having to fight 3 companies of Eclipse mercs, afterwards (Vito tells you there are 3 in the beginning); I opt to just go straight to fighting my way out.

Basically making the best out of an already revolting situation, which is rapidly deteriorating.



And while it may be tempting to whack Zaheed, after we escape the refinery, for putting us in that situation to begin with, my 'specialist' are not angels; and I am not there to judge them. The mission comes first. It's a suicide mission, and I need all the hardcore help I can get.

[Lemonwizard]

DPSSOC wrote...
Had Mordin decided that the genophage needed to be destroyed and no potential benefit could outweigh the potential harm a cure could cause would you have pushed him away from the console and copied it yourself?

Yes. Unquestionably.

[Splinter Cell 108]

I save the workers all the time. This decision is almost exactly alike to BDTS' decision to save the civilians or prevent Balak from escaping. However I think Vido will find it harder to hide from now on, Zaeed tracked him down and most sidequests have something to do with the Blue Suns. After finishing the Blue Suns sidequests I think it said they suffered great losses with the destruction of their bases. If it's as bad as it says then it's only a matter of time until Vido won't be able to hide no more.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Having trouble finding reasons to keep Zaeed around... I want to space him.

[Giant Panther]

It has already been stated but the major problem here is that people think that killing Vido will somehow strike a deathblow to the Blue Suns. It is just like the killing the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. There will be a power grab which will hurt them somewhat, but in the end their large multiple planet infrastructure will most likely survive and return just as powerful.

[Lemonwizard]

Vido is the Ring and the Blue Suns are Sauron, destroy one and the other is vanquished instantly.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

JKoopman wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Wasn't the actual reason that they were there to save the workers? Zaeed says the company hired him to save the refinery and workers. Zaeed took it to take out Vido but his mission was still to save the workers regardless of what he'd wanted to do when he got there.

Officially, Zaeed's mission is to liberate the refinery (note: liberating the refinery doesn't necessarily require rescuing the hostages, and even if you take the renegade route the report still states that the mission was completed). However, your mission is to help Zaeed and earn his loyalty. If doing so requires ignoring the official mission, then that's what it takes. Ultimately, it can be seen as being Zaeed's choice. You're just his backup in that situation.

Nope, I didn't let him go after Vido and when he chuck a hissy fit my femShep showed him some fist. that got his loyalty so win-win... he can catch Vido some other time.