374 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

Bluko wrote...

Going back to the example of the Mako, look at their perspective. You are a Dev you go on the forums quickly for a few minutes to see some general feedback. There are maybe two topics on the first page regarding how the Mako sucks or had bad controls. All people say is how bad every feature of it was. If people disliked it that much are you going to waste time developing missions for the Mako which nobody seemed to like? Probably not.

Sorry, but that's not how it works at all. First, no single developer decides on their own whether to remove a feature or not. Second, such a decision is not made by anyone just by reading a few posts on a forum. Official reviews and internal feedback are just as important, probably more so. Third, there were a lot of suggestions about how to improve the Mako. If you have a forum, you will of course always have spam and useless posts, just look at this thread. But the main problems could easily have been identified, and improving upon them was no rocket science.

But the thing is, BioWare were obviously working under time constraints, and for that reason things had to be cut. The vehicle happened to be one of them. The complaints were a convenient excuse for doing so, but they were never the reason to begin with.

Bluko wrote...

I can bet the same thing will happen to Planet Scanning. They will probably totally rip it out and resources, because almost everyone hates Planet Scanning. I'm not a fan of it myself, but I think it could be fixed to be less tedious. But most folks don't offer solutions so that's probably not going to happen. Obviously it's still up to the Devs to make the game "good", you're right. I'm just saying it would be nice to see constructive topics a bit more often.

Well, one solution would be to include a vehicle...

[smudboy]

Bluko wrote...
Yet I constantly see people making the arguement that ME2 is plot failure or full of plotholes. I'd say ME2's story isn't quite as strong as ME1, but ME2 is certainly not a "plot failure". Despite what you may think ME2's plot shares many elements with the most popular Science-Fiction/Fantasy settings out there.

What you call "not a 'plot failure'", I call an utter collapse.

All stories, all movies, all video games have plotholes.

No they don't.  Who taught you this?  Was it kraidy111?

The plotholes in ME2 are hardly any worse then those in ME1. This whole charade of bitter ME1fans bashing any aspect of ME2 that they can seems childish to me. Instead of tearing apart the problems in ME2 why not do something constructive like make suggestions as to how ME3 could do things better.

Oh this should be good.  I didn't have the time to compare two games, just on their plot holes, and then say they're "just about the same," on quantity or type or whatever.  Here's assuming you actually did.

(Right.)

How can I make a suggestion to making ME3 better?  Seriously.  WTF is going to happen in ME3?  With ME2 as a lead in?  It boggles my mind as to what the hell is going to go on in there.

This is not an issue of content.  A writer can do, progress the plot, in ANY way they like.  This is why I am not necessarily arguing the story.  I am arguing the plot.  All I can say to any writer who has plot holes, or doesn't know how to write, is edit your own work.  Get multiple people to edit your own work.  Get different opinions.  Take a step back and go "wait a second, this doesn't make a lick of sense."

Go anywhere else on these forums, and you'll get fans with their 101 ideas of what to do, how to improve x element and y character.  It's completely subjective.  If you want to do that, go ahead.

Writers don't have the problem of ideas.  They have the problem of how to express those ideas properly, and how it can -- and should -- make sense to an idiot (the average viewer.)

Saying something sucks or is stupid isn't helpful to the Devs.

I tend to go into detail.  Hence the videos.

If you noticed the Marketing of Errors video, which is this forum title, was done for fun.  Take with it what you will.

People complained about the Mako and Elevators, so they removed, and now a number of people are upset about that. This could have been averted if people had actually bothered to leave constructive feedback. Instead of just saying the Mako sucked, people could have gone into detail about issues with the controls or the poor terrain negotiation. But nope people just whined and now there is absolutely no vehicle element in ME2, besides DLC. Which is why we don't big environments like in ME1 to explore. So you see it actually caused almost a Domino effect of problems.

My point? Complaining is absolutely useless unless you offer some kind of suggestion as to resolve the problem/issue at hand.

I'm just here to vent.  It feels good.

Game designers and writers are fully capable of making good decisions, provided they have open discussions and peer feedback, especially if they work for Bioware.  For example, the mining game could have actually been fun, if they simply added more features and (any) depth to it.  But they broke one of the first rules of gameplay: bad control.  I think a patch tried to solve it.

[smudboy]

Warfister wrote...
Ah, i see. If someone doesn't happen to like something you did, not find it funny or pretty much disagree in any way, they should  "go away" .Following your logic, if you dont like the plot or the gameplay or whatever else in ME2 you should "__ ____" ?

1) No.  If they have something intelligent to say, and don't make character comments or attacks, then by all means.  Really.  Are you learning how to argue here? I think there's a few articles online that teach you how to come up with a countering opinion, providing evidence, comparing the effects of the countering premise, and how to avoid character attacks.

2) You can do whatever you want.  Within the context of arguing with me, then simply state your argument.

You do have one, right?  Or did you just want to "figure me out?"

Well aren't I all rosey cheeked.

[Ecael]

smudboy wrote...

How can I make a suggestion to making ME3 better? Seriously. WTF is going to happen in ME3? With ME2 as a lead in? It boggles my mind as to what the hell is going to go on in there.

This is not an issue of content. A writer can do, progress the plot, in ANY way they like. This is why I am not necessarily arguing the story. I am arguing the plot. All I can say to any writer who has plot holes, or doesn't know how to write, is edit your own work. Get multiple people to edit your own work. Get different opinions. Take a step back and go "wait a second, this doesn't make a lick of sense."

You could make a suggestion on how fix those plot holes. The writers can't take original storyline or mission ideas (because they can get sued for that, as Drew Karpyshyn mentioned), but they can accept corrections to their own work.

Mass Effect 2 had 10 writers working on it, and two people to constantly check for continuity. I don't think any other game has had the luxury of that kind of writing team.

Go anywhere else on these forums, and you'll get fans with their 101 ideas of what to do, how to improve x element and y character. It's completely subjective. If you want to do that, go ahead.

Not quite. It's completely subjective because this is what the suggestions are usually like:

1. "Get rid of this"
2. "Add this back in from ME1"
3. "Keep this from ME2"
4. "DON'T do this"

They're suggestions, but they're not ideas. BioWare can't do anything with those.

[BananaCologne]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

How can I make a suggestion to making ME3 better? Seriously. WTF is going to happen in ME3? With ME2 as a lead in? It boggles my mind as to what the hell is going to go on in there.

This is not an issue of content. A writer can do, progress the plot, in ANY way they like. This is why I am not necessarily arguing the story. I am arguing the plot. All I can say to any writer who has plot holes, or doesn't know how to write, is edit your own work. Get multiple people to edit your own work. Get different opinions. Take a step back and go "wait a second, this doesn't make a lick of sense."

You could make a suggestion on how fix those plot holes. The writers can't take original storyline or mission ideas (because they can get sued for that, as Drew Karpyshyn mentioned), but they can accept corrections to their own work.

Mass Effect 2 had 10 writers working on it, and two people to constantly check for continuity. I don't think any other game has had the luxury of that kind of writing team.

Go anywhere else on these forums, and you'll get fans with their 101 ideas of what to do, how to improve x element and y character. It's completely subjective. If you want to do that, go ahead.

Not quite. It's completely subjective because this is what the suggestions are usually like:

1. "Get rid of this"
2. "Add this back in from ME1"
3. "Keep this from ME2"
4. "DON'T do this"

They're suggestions, but they're not ideas. BioWare can't do anything with those.

Oh I'm sorry Ecael.  I just insulted your entire posting method?

Suggesting how to fix a plot hole in ME2 is suggesting how to "repair" a broken support structure of a building that has utterly collapsed.  This goes under the category of "it was all a dream", alternate universe, amnesia, etc.

Modifié par smudboy, 10 juin 2010 - 12:20 .

[Ecael]

smudboy wrote...

Oh I'm sorry Ecael.  I just insulted your entire posting method?

Nope. I don't think you did.

Suggesting how to fix a plot hole in ME2 is suggesting how to "repair" a broken support structure of a building that has utterly collapsed.  This goes under the category of "it was all a dream", alternate universe, amnesia, etc.

That's very much subjective to say that as well.

I'm just here to vent.  It feels good.

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Oh I'm sorry Ecael.  I just insulted your entire posting method?

Nope. I don't think you did.

Ah, silly me.  (I mean, who can possibly figure out what combo of Adobe and technical/litetary expertise you'll come up with...an hour from now?

Suggesting how to fix a plot hole in ME2 is suggesting how to "repair" a broken support structure of a building that has utterly collapsed.  This goes under the category of "it was all a dream", alternate universe, amnesia, etc.

That's very much subjective to say that as well.

Not really.  It's subjective to want to re-write ME2 and say "well, if x happened instead, I'd make more sense."  This isn't peer review of a creative writing class: the thing is done.  (Mind you I do make some simple or obvious suggestions.)  This is why it's almost impossible to guess what ME3 is up to, aside from thinking "Shepard stops the Reapers."  For the simple, follow some methods of victory a la glacier1701.

Modifié par smudboy, 10 juin 2010 - 12:30 .

[Ecael]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]smudboy wrote...

Oh I'm sorry Ecael.  I just insulted your entire posting method?[/quote]
Nope. I don't think you did.


[/quote]
Ah, silly me.  (I mean, who can possibly figure out what combo of Adobe and technical/litetary expertise you'll come up with...an hour from now?[/quote]
I am quite unpredictable with my technical and literary expertise.

I prefer it to making YouTube videos. I like to write because it...


[quote]
[quote]Suggesting how to fix a plot hole in ME2 is suggesting how to "repair" a broken support structure of a building that has utterly collapsed.  This goes under the category of "it was all a dream", alternate universe, amnesia, etc.[/quote]
That's very much subjective to say that as well.[/quote]
Not really.  It's subjective to want to re-write ME2 and say "well, if x happened instead, I'd make more sense."  This isn't peer review of a creative writing class: the thing is done.  (Mind you I do make some simple or obvious suggestions.)  This is why it's almost impossible to guess what ME3 is up to, aside from thinking "Shepard stops the Reapers."  For the simple, follow some methods of victory a la glacier1701.[/quote]
Correct. Yet the main plot of the trilogy is pretty much done at this point. Since nothing you say can change it, what's the point of saying anything?

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...
Correct. Yet the main plot of the trilogy is pretty much done at this point. Since nothing you say can change it, what's the point of saying anything?

?

I was referring to ME2.  Who knows?  Maybe Mac, or someone with a brain and spine will have a strike and walk off until all the ridiculousness is addressed?

[Ecael]

smudboy wrote...

I was referring to ME2.  Who knows?  Maybe Mac, or someone with a brain and spine will have a strike and walk off until all the ridiculousness is addressed?

We all know what the writers' strike did to a lot of TV shows and some movies - it certainly didn't make them any better.

Ecael wrote...
Correct. Yet the main plot of the trilogy is pretty much done at this point. Since nothing you say can change it, what's the point of saying anything?

?

Reposted my repost picture? I bet you could say that it...

[Zahxia]

Do we really need to argue over whether Bioware has made poor marketing decisions when they distributed a 'making of' documentary DVD that was nothing more than a sales pitch for those who have already purchased (and likely played through) Mass Effect 2. At least it made me appreciate how talented the actors are.



If I could make one suggestion: Find an excitable guy with a British accent. Just look at Molyneux or [Bioware]Mythic's Paul Barnett.

[STG]

I think I smell a meme forming and to be honest, it...

[glacier1701]

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

How can I make a suggestion to making ME3 better? Seriously. WTF is going to happen in ME3? With ME2 as a lead in? It boggles my mind as to what the hell is going to go on in there.

This is not an issue of content. A writer can do, progress the plot, in ANY way they like. This is why I am not necessarily arguing the story. I am arguing the plot. All I can say to any writer who has plot holes, or doesn't know how to write, is edit your own work. Get multiple people to edit your own work. Get different opinions. Take a step back and go "wait a second, this doesn't make a lick of sense."

You could make a suggestion on how fix those plot holes. The writers can't take original storyline or mission ideas (because they can get sued for that, as Drew Karpyshyn mentioned), but they can accept corrections to their own work.

Mass Effect 2 had 10 writers working on it, and two people to constantly check for continuity. I don't think any other game has had the luxury of that kind of writing team.

Go anywhere else on these forums, and you'll get fans with their 101 ideas of what to do, how to improve x element and y character. It's completely subjective. If you want to do that, go ahead.

Not quite. It's completely subjective because this is what the suggestions are usually like:

1. "Get rid of this"
2. "Add this back in from ME1"
3. "Keep this from ME2"
4. "DON'T do this"

They're suggestions, but they're not ideas. BioWare can't do anything with those.

I'll add in something here. The story is more of an intangible rather than a fixed piece of data such as how much damage a gun does. Thus it is harder if not impossible to say what will fix it exactly. It is much better to say what is wrong and WHY it is wrong. The writers should be able then to use the ideas they have to move the story along in a better way. For example, as pointed out by Smud in his other vid topic we BULLRUSH through the Omega-4 relay without ANY idea of whats on the other side. No sane military commander would do that. They would send in unmmaned probes. We know the Reaper IFF can be duplicated so why do we BULLRUSH in blind? It makes NO MILITARY SENSE and Shepard is military. So what if the probes only tell us of the debris field - now when we got through the tension is heightened in that can we avoid the debris? As it stands currently we bullrush in and the debris avoidance is just meh since it was not OUR choice to go in knowing the danger. 

[Ecael]

glacier1701 wrote...

I'll add in something here. The story is more of an intangible rather than a fixed piece of data such as how much damage a gun does. Thus it is harder if not impossible to say what will fix it exactly. It is much better to say what is wrong and WHY it is wrong. The writers should be able then to use the ideas they have to move the story along in a better way. For example, as pointed out by Smud in his other vid topic we BULLRUSH through the Omega-4 relay without ANY idea of whats on the other side. No sane military commander would do that. They would send in unmmaned probes. We know the Reaper IFF can be duplicated so why do we BULLRUSH in blind? It makes NO MILITARY SENSE and Shepard is military. So what if the probes only tell us of the debris field - now when we got through the tension is heightened in that can we avoid the debris? As it stands currently we bullrush in and the debris avoidance is just meh since it was not OUR choice to go in knowing the danger.

The main plot cannot be changed, but the dialogue and side missions can. Most people don't complain about the amount of dialogue or nitpick the side missions, however.

Also, how would the probes communicate that they made it through the Omega-4 Relay? It's at the galactic core, and I'm pretty sure the Omega-4 relay doesn't bounce communication (it would give away their actual location without Shepard having to board the Disabled Collector Ship).

If you want, you can always post it on the Anti-Plot Hole thread.

[InvaderErl]

Look at this way, if the probes made it through and the Collectors noticed them - they know that the Omega relay is no longer secure. They could have changed the security protocols screwing Shepard permanently or even reinforced their end.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 10 juin 2010 - 03:23 .

[adam_grif]

The probes are programmed to land on the other side, take photos, then jump back to the O4 relay.



But the Reaper IFF was a specific piece OF a reaper, not just a code or something. It may have been replicatable, but not in the short-term. It would require a sciencec team. This means your crew would die. But again, if thsi was real life, crew dying is nothing compared to the suicidal charge across the O4 relay into what they can only assume is swarms of Collectors, dozens of ships, and so on.

[Ecael]

adam_grif wrote...

The probes are programmed to land on the other side, take photos, then jump back to the O4 relay.

So the probes will also have an onboard Reaper tech AI and a Joker clone to navigate the debris field that the probes will be "bullrushing" into upon exiting?

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

The probes are programmed to land on the other side, take photos, then jump back to the O4 relay.

So the probes will also have an onboard Reaper tech AI and a Joker clone to navigate the debris field that the probes will be "bullrushing" into upon exiting?

Huh?

Probe, comm buoy, other ship, satellite, etc.

[InvaderErl]

Wouldn't doing all that increase the likelihood of detection by the Collectors?

The Normany 2 has stealth systems and the Collectors didn't have problems detecting it, a probe sending out signals and such is going to be easy for them to spot.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 10 juin 2010 - 04:01 .

[glacier1701]

Shandepared wrote...

Ecael wrote...



Mass Effect 2 had 10 writers working on it, and two people to constantly check for continuity. I don't think any other game has had the luxury of that kind of writing team.

I think someone may have been slacking off.

 I would say they were - check the Codex on Collectors and then think about Horizon and Mordin. Basically according to the Codex they do not need the seeker swarms to put people into stasis - a few collectors can do that all by themselves. Of course that means no gamestory - but someone didn't bother to go back and check things. And supposedly this part of the game was fixed pretty well 6 or so months before release.

[Khayness]

The video is clever and has valid points, but the title should have been Believing in Hype.

[smudboy]

Khayness wrote...

The video is clever and has valid points, but the title should have been Believing in Hype.

But I love Shakespeare!

[Warfister]

smudboy wrote...

Warfister wrote...
Ah, i see. If someone doesn't happen to like something you did, not find it funny or pretty much disagree in any way, they should  "go away" .Following your logic, if you dont like the plot or the gameplay or whatever else in ME2 you should "__ ____" ?

1) No.  If they have something intelligent to say, and don't make character comments or attacks, then by all means.  Really.  Are you learning how to argue here? I think there's a few articles online that teach you how to come up with a countering opinion, providing evidence, comparing the effects of the countering premise, and how to avoid character attacks.

2) You can do whatever you want.  Within the context of arguing with me, then simply state your argument.

You do have one, right?  Or did you just want to "figure me out?"

Well aren't I all rosey cheeked.

There you go again with the hostility, you want my argument? Your videos were low quality, horrible sound, snarky,opinionated spin doctored trash of a wanna be game critic that served no purpose other than to try and toot your own horn and possibly rile up fans who like the game. Just about anyone could see the plot holes if they look close enough, but most people probably aren't so offended by the problems with ME2 that they waste time making crappy youtube videos about them.

But like i said previously, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you're certainly free to waste your time however you like, its your attitude that stinks, you simply cannot have a conversation on these boards without attacking anyone that has a differing opinion than yours.You are pretty much a troll , you have nothing constructive to say and cannot argue without insult or pathetic attempts at sarcasm. You are not asking for debate , you are looking to incite, what do you expect when you post something like this on the forums of a game? that fans of it will not come to it's defense? You open yourself up to criticism when you post this , just as the game devs open themselves to criticism when they release a game, you have to take the good with the bad.

I'm sure you will have some super witty comments and insults in reply , or tell me to **** off or whatever other gems you come up with that are as original as your videos. Have a great day.