374 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

jgordon11 wrote...
smudboy, if returning probes work then why has no ship EVER returned from the omega 4 relay? If a probe could get there and return unharmed then why couldn't the tons of ships which were destroyed. You need the reaper IFF to do it otherwise you die. Cerberus is aware of the fact that if anything/anyone goes beyond the omega 4 relay is never heard from again only the collectors are able to do this. Thats why he sends you into the trap because he knows that falling into their trap is the only way for the collectors to actually let you find this stuff out about the IFF.

I don't know how those ships are all hanging around in space there.  They were either very lucky to get there in the first place, or they had their own IFF.

Why wouldn't a probe work after we have the IFF?
The IFF could not be replicated due to advanced technology so we only have one at this point and near future. IFF to work and not screw up systems would require an advanced AI to control it (dangerous and wasteful). So would still need special communications as conventional equipment wouldn't work without comm buoy network. All of that takes time and shepard has the one ship that possibly can travel across the relay, is super advanced and can fight the collectors and has super duper commandos to take them out. Sounds like its a good idea to go in after all theyve been preparing for this the whole game. So why waste more time with designing and creating super probes while your crew dies a terrible death or just get it done. The value of the probe compared with the resources necessary is really not that high. Either the opposition is too great and were ****ed anyways collectors would be unable to be stopped or it works b/c normandy is the most advanced ship in existence.

The IFF was replicated.  Quite quickly actually.  Get the worst ending and save the base.  Watch the cinematic.

Also who said it was a plot hole? You kind of did in plot analysis 4 out of 6 you mention this same exact concept.

Please quote me.  I'd like examples, time index, etc.

Also guided missiles... So cerberus should design missiles with their own sensor array, targeting computer and everything that a ship has to target an unknown target as well as their own reaper IFF. Sounds like you just want to send a ship in. Also guided missiles get through relay without all of that stuff magically and hit debris and make smaller debris. You'd have to send like tons of missiles to do anything and that would have to be with reaper IFF all in them for them to even get there.

Yet still less dangerous than sending the Normandy.

[smudboy]

InvaderErl wrote...

Just to comment before somebody says computer targeting on guided missiles can make it through the debris field, a huge part of the reason the Normandy made it through was because of Joker's skill.

As EDI essentially said, a computer cannot make up for the human element.

It doesn't take a human to find the best, if not only (if such exists) route of "not hitting an obstacle."  In fact, I'd say a computer would be faster at calculating the best course.  That scene where Joker talks about EDI, at them both taking the helm (whatever that means), EDI responds with an example about two AI weapons pitted against each other: the one with better hardware will win.  Then something about human misjudgements deying predictive models (?)

I think the idea behind the guided missiles would be to actually hit the debris field: so that is is safe to fly through.

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

(I swear the concept of sending in probes has been used in all the Stargate series in virtually every episode.)

Then we shall use the Ewoks Hanar to defeat the Reapers.

I saw the concept in Star Wars.

Sorry I have no idea wtf you're talking about, but I think you're just trying to be funny.

The idea that a Stargate is a door to another world, that no one has been before, is pretty darned similar to the idea of the Omega-4 relay.

So this "Stargate" you speak of, is it a prequel to Mass Effect 1?

...

But apparently none of the writers were watching the show, or thought of more logical, safer, simpler solutions, let alone alluding or discussing them.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Yeah, I noticed the Shepard/Atlantis thing too. Figured it was an homage.

[huntrrz]

smudboy wrote...

I don't know how those ships are all hanging around in space there.  They were either very lucky to get there in the first place, or they had their own IFF.

This is explained in-game.  The IFF triggers enhanced protocols in the relay so the transit can be made more precisely.  There is only a small safe zone on the far side of the relay and standard jumps are extremely likely to end up outside that zone, resulting in the ship being ripped apart by the black hole.  (The occuli are there to mop up any ships that manage to be lucky enough to jump into the safe zone.)

How did you miss that?

[jgordon11]

Wow smudboy your insistence to actually ignore differing opinions is actually impressive. All I am trying to show is how that with the limited knowledge we have of the universe that probes could possibily not work and that sending the normandy was a good idea. But half the time you ignore half of the points i make and think you actually make a proper response to things i bring up. Sadly i will have to go back to numbered responses.

1. Nothing has returned hence we need reaper IFF or we die, debris field shows how if you don't have one you die. The debris field was there for the lucky ships that did make it and got destroyed, or parts of ships that got ripped apart as they struggled to escape the black holes around them. idk why there is a debris field but its clear that they are trying to show us that a lot of people tried without the reaper IFF and died doing so. Regardless probes without IFF are destroyed and useless. This is like the thing they constantly tell you throughout the game. Its why we need the IFF, its why we just can't go there to begin with. So returning probes don't work.

2. Yeah they did replicate it but it also severely screwed up their system and it took a really advanced AI to contain it so perhaps a probe wouldn't have these things making it difficult to use on a simple inexpensive problem.

3. 4:40 and out of principle i won't say anymore considering how obvious you think it is that they shouldve used probes instead of "bullrushing in" (see im quoting you) given as evidence from that video and your constant posts about probing through the relay.

4. I was making fun of you defending guided missiles through the relay will save the day concept because frankly its stupid. Sadly i have to list why it is:
-targeting issues
-no clue what is there so why launch missiles at stuff you don't know (we could try to cross that river or we could just carpet bomb everything)
-debris field destroy missiles or are attacked by missiles accomplishing absolutely nothing
-occulus not active and in debris field so would not be attacked directly
-if occulus were locked on to they are manuevable so could avoid missile
-less dangerous than sending in Normandy just like not going in the first place... Yet BOTH dont accomplish anything.

EDIT: huntrrz thank you for explaining my first point better

Modifié par jgordon11, 10 juin 2010 - 11:53 .

[InvaderErl]

smudboy wrote...
It doesn't take a human to find the best, if not only (if such exists) route of "not hitting an obstacle."  In fact, I'd say a computer would be faster at calculating the best course.  That scene where Joker talks about EDI, at them both taking the helm (whatever that means), EDI responds with an example about two AI weapons pitted against each other: the one with better hardware will win.  Then something about human misjudgements deying predictive models (?)

True, pitted against your average pilot I'd go with the computer, but a computer is not infallible and can become confused. Even if somehow the missles made it throught the field they'd have to contend with the Occulus drones.

smudboy wrote...
I think the idea behind the guided missiles would be to actually hit the debris field: so that is is safe to fly through.

Unless the explosions were huge and all encompassing, and I don't believe the Mass Effect universe has ordinance of that type, there's really far too much debris to just hit it with missiles. You might end up causing a bigger mess by breaking up huge but intact wreck into a bunch of smaller one's.

[smudboy]

huntrrz wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I don't know how those ships are all hanging around in space there.  They were either very lucky to get there in the first place, or they had their own IFF.

This is explained in-game.  The IFF triggers enhanced protocols in the relay so the transit can be made more precisely.  There is only a small safe zone on the far side of the relay and standard jumps are extremely likely to end up outside that zone, resulting in the ship being ripped apart by the black hole.  (The occuli are there to mop up any ships that manage to be lucky enough to jump into the safe zone.)

How did you miss that?

Um, because if something gets ripped apart by a black hole, there wouldn't be debris.  How did you make the distinction that the ships that are in the debris field are non-IFF ships?  If they're non-IFF ships, they are extremely lucky at arriving at the same location as the Normandy, since they didn't account for drift.  So how did they become disabled?

[InvaderErl]

What's Jacob's exact quote? Black holes and exploding (suns? quasars?) I can't remember. Anyway, I think the implication is that they jumped in outside of the safe zone (which is apparently fairly tight since normal relay use results in death) were torn apart by the (I want to say gravimetric forces but that's Trek jargon - God, you know what I mean) forces and then the debris got spewed out all over the area.

So I guess what I'm saying is its not just black holes wreaking havoc.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 juin 2010 - 12:08 .

[Ecael]

smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

(I swear the concept of sending in probes has been used in all the Stargate series in virtually every episode.)

Then we shall use the Ewoks Hanar to defeat the Reapers.

I saw the concept in Star Wars.

Sorry I have no idea wtf you're talking about, but I think you're just trying to be funny.

The idea that a Stargate is a door to another world, that no one has been before, is pretty darned similar to the idea of the Omega-4 relay.

So this "Stargate" you speak of, is it a prequel to Mass Effect 1?

...

But apparently none of the writers were watching the show, or thought of more logical, safer, simpler solutions, let alone alluding or discussing them.

"According to Casey Hudson, the project director at BioWare, the films Aliens, Blade Runner, Star Wars, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Starship Troopers all served as influences for the game."

Game over, man. Game over!

Modifié par Ecael, 11 juin 2010 - 12:11 .

[smudboy]

jgordon11 wrote...
Wow smudboy your insistence to actually ignore differing opinions is actually impressive.

I like to think I keep myself intelligent that way.

All I am trying to show is how that with the limited knowledge we have of the universe that probes could possibily not work and that sending the normandy was a good idea. But half the time you ignore half of the points i make and think you actually make a proper response to things i bring up. Sadly i will have to go back to numbered responses.

And that's like saying "it's a better idea to risk everything because, as opposed to gathering intel because we have limited knowledge."

1. Nothing has returned hence we need reaper IFF or we die, debris field shows how if you don't have one you die. The debris field was there for the lucky ships that did make it and got destroyed, or parts of ships that got ripped apart as they struggled to escape the black holes around them. idk why there is a debris field but its clear that they are trying to show us that a lot of people tried without the reaper IFF and died doing so. Regardless probes without IFF are destroyed and useless. This is like the thing they constantly tell you throughout the game. Its why we need the IFF, its why we just can't go there to begin with. So returning probes don't work.

The debris field shows debris.  If they're non IFF based ships, they would drift several thousand kilometres into stars/black holes.  That means, an IFF enabled ship (the Normandy) would not encounter debris where it exits from these supposed ships.  But we're shown debris of ships.  Therefore those ships must be IFF based ships (or something with certain mass relay protocols that allow them access to the safe zone), or were insanely lucky to arrive there.  Perhaps the journey to there made them go boom (speculating on the IFF making the Normandy engines go garbonzo)?

So returning IFF probes won't work because...?

2. Yeah they did replicate it but it also severely screwed up their system and it took a really advanced AI to contain it so perhaps a probe wouldn't have these things making it difficult to use on a simple inexpensive problem.

So we agree?  Good.  Then an AI would have no problem.  It doesn't take an AI like EDI to pilot a space vessel so that it doesn't hit anything.  The only thing EDI comments is the "drive core electrical charge at critical levels," and Joker reroutes while using the relay.

3. 4:40 and out of principle i won't say anymore considering how obvious you think it is that they shouldve used probes instead of "bullrushing in" (see im quoting you) given as evidence from that video and your constant posts about probing through the relay.

And what was your point of this sentence?  What are you quoting me on.  Bullrushing?  Sure, I said bullrushing. Your point?

4. I was making fun of you defending guided missiles through the relay will save the day concept because frankly its stupid. Sadly i have to list why it is:
-targeting issues
-no clue what is there so why launch missiles at stuff you don't know (we could try to cross that river or we could just carpet bomb everything)
-debris field destroy missiles or are attacked by missiles accomplishing absolutely nothing
-occulus not active and in debris field so would not be attacked directly
-if occulus were locked on to they are manuevable so could avoid missile
-less dangerous than sending in Normandy just like not going in the first place... Yet BOTH dont accomplish anything.

EDIT: huntrrz thank you for explaining my first point better

The whole point of the missiles is to hit the debris field...

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...
"According to Casey Hudson, the project director at BioWare, the films Aliens, Blade Runner, Star Wars, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Starship Troopers all served as influences for the game."

Game over, man. Game over!

Seriously: are we reducing everything you write to a joke or taunt now?  If so, just email me.  There's no need for this.

[huntrrz]

smudboy wrote...

Um, because if something gets ripped apart by a black hole, there wouldn't be debris.

Come again?  Ripped apart == debris.  The ships are torn by tidal forces, leaving them in pieces, not reduced to their component molecules.  They may be further broken up as they fall into the hole, but they also experience time dilation so they don't instantly disappear.

How did you make the distinction that the ships that are in the debris field are non-IFF ships?

Because I'm not being deliberately obtuse.  Until Cerberus figured it out, no one but the Reapers knew about or had access to the IFF feature of the relays.

If they're non-IFF ships, they are extremely lucky at arriving at the same location as the Normandy, since they didn't account for drift.  So how did they become disabled?

They didn't "arrive at the same location as the Normandy".  They jumped too close to the hole and were torn apart or were cut to pieces by Occuli (as already explained).  The remains look to be pretty evenly distributed around the black hole, orbiting it as they begin their fall into it (this is the "accretion disc" EDI referred to).  The Normandy arrived further out (not inside the field) and almost immediately ran into the debris because the tolerances were just. that. exacting.

Modifié par huntrrz, 11 juin 2010 - 12:22 .

[huntrrz]

ET: remove duplicate

Modifié par huntrrz, 11 juin 2010 - 12:23 .

[smudboy]

InvaderErl wrote...

What's Jacob's exact quote? Black holes and exploding (suns? quasars?) I can't remember. Anyway, I think the implication is that they jumped in outside of the safe zone (which is apparently fairly tight since normal relay use results in death) were torn apart by the (I want to say gravimetric forces but that's Trek jargon - God, you know what I mean) forces and then the debris got spewed out all over the area.

So I guess what I'm saying is its not just black holes wreaking havoc.

If a non-IFF ship went through the relay and got torn up by black holes, there'd be no debris.  If it got torn up by suns/stars, there'd be no debris, as we're traveling into stars and blackholes.  If in some ridiculous luck filled manner the mass relay corridor caused no drift or kept the ships on the path an IFF ship would go, yet the ship didn't survive the journey (electrical failure, etc.) and there are no objects to prevent the now torn up non-IFF ship when exiting into that magical safe-zone, the debris of the ships/destroyed ship would simply keep traveling when they hit that safe zone.  They wouldn't be just sitting there.  The corollary to this is if there is a gravity well, or some kind of gravity field, where the debris is being pulled around (we've no clue exactly how the safe zone works, or what this gravity well might be.)

So therefore these ships must be IFF capable/have some other means of enabling the effects of IFF, and were destroyed by the Collectors/Oculus/stress of traveling through the relay, and are somehow just floating around there.

[InvaderErl]

Hence why I made the point that Jacob says there's exploding suns, there are other effects besides the black hole that make the region dangerous.

[smudboy]

huntrrz wrote...
Come again?  Ripped apart == debris.  The ships are torn by tidal forces, leaving them in pieces, not reduced to their component molecules.  They may be further broken up as they fall into the hole, but they also experience time dilation so they don't instantly disappear.

Ripped apart by a black hole = time/space NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM (no debris)
Ripped apart by a star = (little gravity nomnoms) with nuclear fusion/fission death (no debris)

Because I'm not being deliberately obtuse.  Until Cerberus figured it out, no one but the Reapers knew about or had
access to the IFF feature of the relays.

Explain.

They didn't "arrive at the same location as the Normandy".  They jumped too close to the hole and were torn apart or were cut to pieces by Occuli (as already explained).  The remains look to be pretty evenly distributed around the black hole, orbiting it as they begin their fall into it (this is the "accretion disc" EDI referred to).  The Normandy arrived further out (not inside the field) and almost immediately ran into the debris because the tolerances were just. that. exacting.

Which hole?
What kind of ships (non-iff or iff?)  Because it's nearly impossible if they're non-iff based.

[huntrrz]

smudboy wrote...

So therefore these ships must be IFF capable/have some other means of enabling the effects of IFF, and were destroyed by the Collectors/Oculus/stress of traveling through the relay, and are somehow just floating around there.

There is another possibility you have not considered - you don't know enough about black holes and the environment they create.

Ripped apart by a black hole = time/space NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM (no debris)

Actually, no.  You don't get "no debris" until things reach the event horizon.  Before things get there, they are subjected to tidal forces due to the differing gravitational forces exerted on the sides closest to / furthest from the hole as they increase.

Sorry, I thought this was pretty common knowledge among SF fans.  Niven and Pohl go into this in some detail in some of their stories.

Modifié par huntrrz, 11 juin 2010 - 12:44 .

[smudboy]

huntrrz wrote...

smudboy wrote...

So therefore these ships must be IFF capable/have some other means of enabling the effects of IFF, and were destroyed by the Collectors/Oculus/stress of traveling through the relay, and are somehow just floating around there.

There is another possibility you have not considered - you don't know enough about black holes and the environment they create.

True.  Do I have to be an astrophysicist to properly understand how all this **** should work?  I would hope not.

Last I recall, blackholes suck in everything.  So before you get "torn up by it" you're already dead, and being pulled toward it.  Not just hanging around in space.  This does not explain how those ships got there, unless they were IFF based ships.

[InvaderErl]

Again, there are other astronomical **** your ship up and rip it into pieces effects going on around there.

[huntrrz]

(Please note that I added some more detail to the post you replied to above.)

smudboy wrote...

True.  Do I have to be an astrophysicist to properly understand how all this **** should work?  I would hope not.

No, but when forming criticisms in the future you might consider whether what you regard as a 'plot hole' is actually a lack of knowledge on your part.

[smudboy]

huntrrz wrote...

smudboy wrote...

So therefore these ships must be IFF capable/have some other means of enabling the effects of IFF, and were destroyed by the Collectors/Oculus/stress of traveling through the relay, and are somehow just floating around there.

There is another possibility you have not considered - you don't know enough about black holes and the environment they create.

Ripped apart by a black hole = time/space NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM (no debris)

Actually, no.  You don't get "no debris" until things reach the event horizon.  Before things get there, they are subjected to tidal forces due to the differing gravitational forces exerted on the sides closest to / furthest from the hole as they increase.

Sorry, I thought this was pretty common knowledge among SF fans.  Niven and Pohl go into this in some detail in some of their stories.

Yeah but the narrative doesn't make reference to Niven or Pohl.  You coudl be talking about Ben and Jerry for all it's worth.

If you get torn up by a black hole, you're already going toward that black hole.  If those ships had gotten caught by that black hole, they'd eventually be taken up by it, assuming these ships are to be ≈50,000 years old.  They would not just be hanging around floating right where the Normandy exits.

This implies these ships were IFF/IFF-solution based.  They wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the safe zone, and if destroyed through the journey or exited into a blackhole/star, said debris wouldn't just be "hanging around" in the same zone.  It'd be thousands of kilmeters away, already swallowed up by a black hole/star.

[smudboy]

huntrrz wrote...

(Please note that I added some more detail to the post you replied to above.)

smudboy wrote...

True.  Do I have to be an astrophysicist to properly understand how all this **** should work?  I would hope not.

No, but when forming criticisms in the future you might consider whether what you regard as a 'plot hole' is actually a lack of knowledge on your part.

I'm quite sure it isn't.  It would be a lack of knowledge on the writers part, as well as their lack of storytelling to tell me wtf is going on.

[InvaderErl]

Again, the black hole is not the only danger, there are exploding suns at the very least and likely other astronomical dangers.



The whole point of the IFF is you need to come out at an EXACT point, even minimal drift will result in death. If a ship was off by a few thousand kilometers which in space is practically pissing distance, you die. So its not unusual that the Normandy when it came out would have found itself in debris that likely is drifting through the safe zone created after they were torn to pieces, blasted apart whatever.

[huntrrz]

smudboy wrote...

huntrrz wrote...

(Please note that I added some more detail to the post you replied to above.)

smudboy wrote...

True.  Do I have to be an astrophysicist to properly understand how all this **** should work?  I would hope not.

No, but when forming criticisms in the future you might consider whether what you regard as a 'plot hole' is actually a lack of knowledge on your part.

I'm quite sure it isn't.  It would be a lack of knowledge on the writers part, as well as their lack of storytelling to tell me wtf is going on.

You see, this is why people find you disagreeable to converse with.  You assume that your ignorance is the writer's fault.  What they wrote is consistent with the understanding we've had of the region around a black hole for at least several decades.  This is a video game, not a science course.

If you run into something you don't understand, you could have the good grace to research it or ask for an explanation, instead of declaring it 'wrong' and petulantly ignoring any input to the contrary.