374 réponses à ce sujet

[huntrrz]

Well, they're three-legged and have two heads on long necks, with knobbed lips they use to manipulate things in the absence of hands. They do have hooves.



I just never got "cow" from that...

[smudboy]

adam_grif wrote...
The idea that the Galactic Core is unsurvivable because of black holes and exploding stars is quite odd though. I'm not sure where the writers got that from.

Hey, I'm just going with the narrative, my knowledgeable astrophysics friend...

I think that was from Jacob.

Jacob!

[smudboy]

InvaderErl wrote...
The problem with your approach as I see it is you assume there are black holes EVERYWHERE outside of the safety zone when the visual evidence we are given doesn't support that. There is ONE large black hole past the Collector base on the other side of the safety zone.

That's what the narrative tells us.  It may be incorrect.  But if the narrative defines the universe a certain way, then that's how it works, or at least, how we are told to think about the universe.

We can speculate, use real knowledge of the universe, guess how Mass Relays work, etc.  (Like corridoring out into a star/black hole would do what, etc.)

To use your diagram, ships enter the system but are dropped alongside the safety corridor rather than IN it, perhaps even further back a few thousand k - in either case they end up within the dangerous galactic core region. The forces of the black hole affect the ship tearing it apart , however there is still considerable distance between them and the black hole, the debris still needs to travel there.

I was under the assumption the magnitude vector (length) of the corridor is the same.  It is drift that causes the vessels traveling there to go off course.  Somehow the IFF corrects that during the voyage, or provides a more accurate set of co-ordinates. Since drift is several thousand kilometres, and the IFF ship has to be rather accurate, I can't understand how such destroyed ships (either hitting something not in the safe zone, like a star/blackhole) would somehow get its debris into the safe zone.  It would get caught up in the star/blackhole it exits into (not the one in the safe zone), if it gets "torn up" by it.

Ah, repetition.

The reason I linked to this picture, you can see the debris having formed a ring,

The accretion disk, whereupon the base is at the edge of.

[InvaderErl]

smudboy wrote...

That's what the narrative tells us.  It may be incorrect.  But if the narrative defines the universe a certain way, then that's how it works, or at least, how we are told to think about the universe.

We can speculate, use real knowledge of the universe, guess how Mass Relays work, etc.  (Like corridoring out into a star/black hole would do what, etc.)

Acknowledging that black holes don't actually swallow things up would the radiation exposure be enough to kill the crew of an approaching ship?,

smudboy wrote...
I was under the assumption the magnitude vector (length) of the corridor is the same.

I only mentioned length as a possibility depending on how mass relay's work, its not important - we'll just assume it drops you off the side of the corridor entrance for the sake of convenience.

smudboy wrote...
  It is drift that causes the vessels traveling there to go off course.  Somehow the IFF corrects that during the voyage, or provides a more accurate set of co-ordinates. Since drift is several thousand kilometres, and the IFF ship has to be rather accurate, I can't understand how such destroyed ships (either hitting something not in the safe zone, like a star/blackhole) would somehow get its debris into the safe zone.  It would get caught up in the star/blackhole it exits into (not the one in the safe zone), if it gets "torn up" by it.

Here is where our disagreement comes from I believe. You, correct me if I am wrong, are stating that all space outside of the safe zone is filled with black holes thus any ship not using the IFF gets dropped into a black hole, hence no debris.

Except, this statement relies on Jacob and there's no reason to believeJacob wasn't just using hyperbole: "There's nothing there but blackholes and exploding suns" does not equate to - every inch of the galactic core is covered in black holes and exploding suns. In fact the visual evidence does not support it either as we can see past the safe zone and there are not black holes sitting all around them, there is only one rather large black hole on the other side of the safe zone. I don't think even having black holes occupying all space in the manner you're suggesting is even possible.

Now the region is likely cluttered with black holes and exploding suns making space travel all but impossible, but they don't need to be all on top of each other to have that effect.

smudboy wrote...
The accretion disk, whereupon the base is at the edge of.

I thought about that but the Normandy approached the base through a debris field and there seems to be another field on the far side of the safe zone that stretches to the edges of the screen meaning it could stretch around like a ring. I think its safe to assume considering the base hasn't fallen into the black hole that its emitting its own gravitational pull.

                            DEBRIS
--------------------------------------------------


 
                COLLECTOR BASE



                           DEBRIS

--------------------------------------------------
                                            ^

                                     NORMANDY APPROACHES FROM HERE

So its very likely the debris is in orbit around the Collector base, thereby easily solving the what is all that junk still doing here problem.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 juin 2010 - 08:41 .

[smudboy]

InvaderErl wrote...
Acknowledging that black holes don't actually swallow things up would the radiation exposure be enough to kill the crew of an approaching ship?,

It's more than just radiation, as other posters refer to tidal forces, time dilation, etc. Lots of things for a non-IFF traveling to get "torn apart" to not wind up exactly where an IFF ship would arrive at.

I only mentioned length as a possibility depending on how mass relay's work, its not important - we'll just assume it drops you off the side of the corridor entrance for the sake of convenience.

Well we don't know how wide this safe zone is.  Drift will be missing the mark between 1-9k kilometers's.  The corridor exit point could be far away from the safe zone.  That debris we see is within 1 kilometer of the Normandy when it exits (since it nearly collides with it.)

Here is where our disagreement comes from I believe. You, correct me if I am wrong, are stating that all space outside of the safe zone is filled with black holes thus any ship not using the IFF gets dropped into a black hole, hence no debris.

This is what the narrative tells us.

Except, this statement relies on Jacob and there's no reason to believeJacob wasn't just using hyperbole: "There's nothing there but blackholes and exploding suns" does not equate to - every inch of the galactic core is covered in black holes and exploding suns. In fact the visual evidence does not support it either as we can see past the safe zone and there are not black holes sitting all around them, there is only one rather large black hole on the other side of the safe zone. I don't think even having black holes occupying all space in the manner you're suggesting is even possible.

And there's no reason not to disagree with Jacob and co.
The conversation continues with
Mordin: "Could be an artificial construction.  Space station protected by powerful ME fields and radiation shields."
Shepard: "(snip)...who's to say they can't build a space station surrounded by black holes? (snip)"

Then EDI states the only conclusion is a safe zone exists, which is only accessible by those with IFFs.  Which means if you're not IFF enabled, you won't get near the thing due to drift.  You'd wind up outside the safe zone, which then means into a star or blackhole.

This may not be as astronomically accurate as you might like, but this is what we're given.

Now the region is likely cluttered with black holes and exploding suns making space travel all but impossible, but they don't need to be all on top of each other to have that effect.

Yes but now we're speculating on where these unknown black holes/stars are in relation to these supposed other ships, who got there somehow.

All because some people think IFF probes would be a bad idea.

I thought about that but the Normandy approached the base through a debris field and there seems to be another field on the far side of the safe zone that stretches to the edges of the screen meaning it could stretch around like a ring. I think its safe to assume considering the base hasn't fallen into the black hole that its emitting its own gravitational pull.

                            DEBRIS
--------------------------------------------------


 
                COLLECTOR BASE



                           DEBRIS

--------------------------------------------------
                                            ^

                                     NORMANDY APPROACHES FROM HERE

So its very likely the debris is in orbit around the Collector base, thereby easily solving the what is all that junk still doing here problem.

What?  Where is your "thereby easily solving the what is all that junk still doing here problem?"  I seemed to have missed that.  We could argue the debris field making the accretion disk, where the base is on the edge of, could be made of IFF enabled ships that: 1) were destroyed by the Collectors/Oculus and their debris drifted there (and we could say this of the corridor exit point debris field), 2) IFF enabled ships didn't survive the corridor, destroyed itself into debris, and then when exiting the corridor, momentum pushed them into the black hole's accreation disk.

The only logical conclusion I heard was from adam, who stated that over these years, the Reapers/Collectors might've brought other ships/materials along with them to collect people more efficiently, or construct the base.

[InvaderErl]

Damn it, hit quote instead of edit.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 juin 2010 - 10:24 .

[InvaderErl]

smudboy wrote...

It's more than just radiation, as other posters refer to tidal forces, time dilation, etc. Lots of things for a non-IFF traveling to get "torn apart" to not wind up exactly where an IFF ship would arrive at.

I wasn't really making a point of anything here, I was just curious what kind of radiation the black hole could be generating and the lethality of it.

smudboy wrote...
Well we don't know how wide this safe zone is.  Drift will be missing the mark between 1-9k kilometers's.  The corridor exit point could be far away from the safe zone.  That debris we see is within 1 kilometer of the Normandy when it exits (since it nearly collides with it.)

The entire safe zone itself has to be fairly large since it was big enough for the Normandy to have a dogfight/chase within.

As for the entrance/exit corridor it needs to at least match the width of the Collector ship in order for it to pass through but tight enough that a relatively short amount of drift will kill you.

Looking at the cutscene, the Normandy drops out of "relay flight" just an instant before flying into the debris field as it decelerates to normal speed.

smudboy wrote...
This is what the narrative tells us.

And there's no reason not to disagree with Jacob and co.
..
The conversation continues with
Mordin: "Could be an artificial construction.  Space station protected by powerful ME fields and radiation shields."
Shepard: "(snip)...who's to say they can't build a space station surrounded by black holes? (snip)"

Then EDI states the only conclusion is a safe zone exists, which is only accessible by those with IFFs.

I'm not disagreeing with Jacob at all, but his statement and in fact all of these statements can logically be interpreted as to mean that a planet or station or whatever should not exist within the galactic core because they would be ripped apart or destroyed by the various events going on there. He never says there is no "open" space and in fact by the visual evidence we are provided it seems more likely that this is what Bioware intended than showing black holes inhabiting all the surrounding space.

smudboy wrote...
Which means if you're not IFF enabled, you won't get near the thing due
to drift.  You'd wind up outside the safe zone, which then means into a
star or blackhole.

A drift of only a few thousand k, you'd actually would have been very close to getting successfully into the safe zone. Recall that in ME1, Joker described having a drift of 1500 K.

And again you are assuming there are black holes in all open space, which is not supported by anything unless you take hyperbole extremely literally and ignore the visual evidence.

smudboy wrote...
Yes but now we're speculating on where these unknown black holes/stars are in relation to these supposed other ships, who got there somehow.

All because some people think IFF probes would be a bad idea.

My issue with the probe idea has nothing to do with the logistics of sending one there as much as the likelihood of detection.

I don't even remember how the heck we got to this point,

smudboy wrote...

What?  Where is your "thereby easily solving the what is all that junk still doing here problem?"  I seemed to have missed that.  We could argue the debris field making the accretion disk, where the base is on the edge of, could be made of IFF enabled ships that: 1) were destroyed by the Collectors/Oculus and their debris drifted there (and we could say this of the corridor exit point debris field), 2) IFF enabled ships didn't survive the corridor, destroyed itself into debris, and then when exiting the corridor, momentum pushed them into the black hole's accreation disk.

I don't get where these IFF enabled ships are coming from? You need a Reaper IFF to make the trip, otherwise you end up missing the corridor.

smudboy wrote...
The only logical conclusion I heard was from adam, who stated that over these years, the Reapers/Collectors might've brought other ships/materials along with them to collect people more efficiently, or construct the base.

That's certainly possible and requires less diagrams.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 juin 2010 - 10:37 .

[tonnactus]

Tamahome560 wrote...

Lift cannot be curved

And that was never necessary.It has a big radiuos and the player just have to aim at the ground to lift enemies out of cover.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Carrying over from the disappointment thread, who else felt we were gypped of dialogue overall in favor of the shooter crowd so they wouldn't always have to feel like the "story was dragging when it could be told through combat"? There was no balance, no equal ratio between dialogue and combat. Personally I think the marketing speaks for itself.

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 12 juin 2010 - 09:45 .

[InvaderErl]

Really? Doesn't ME2 have MORE dialogue than the first one. In fact there are still nice long stretches were you're not doing anything but talking.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 juin 2010 - 08:53 .

[BlackyBlack]

You've got to be frakking kidding me. Have you even seen the E3 2006 demo for ME1 and other interviews for ME1?
Now, THAT's false marketing




They said that there'll there'll be a customizable MAKO, an interrupt system, destructible environment, that you could leave your armor covered with blood, that each world will be big as Morrowind and long as a KOTOR world, that you could change the appearance of your weapons and that you can play as a squad mate like in KOTOR and all kinds of other crap.
ME1 was the huge dissapointment, not ME2

Modifié par BlackyBlack, 12 juin 2010 - 08:57 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

InvaderErl wrote...

Really? Doesn't ME2 have MORE dialogue than the first one. In fact there are still nice long stretches were you're not doing anything but talking.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Overall more dialogue, essentially there's less said though with individual characters. Yes, that's taking into consideration "exposition".

[Teknor]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Overall more dialogue, essentially there's less said though with individual characters. Yes, that's taking into consideration "exposition".

You are saying that characters in ME2 talk less ? If that's the case then it's wrong. 

[InvaderErl]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Really? Doesn't ME2 have MORE dialogue than the first one. In fact there are still nice long stretches were you're not doing anything but talking.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Overall more dialogue, essentially there's less said though with individual characters. Yes, that's taking into consideration "exposition".

I'm not going to get into that argument at the moment but that wasn't what you inititally asserted.

So again to answer your question -  no, they didn't cut down on the dialogue for the shooter crowd.

[InvaderErl]

BlackyBlack wrote...

You've got to be frakking kidding me. Have you even seen the E3 2006 demo for ME1 and other interviews for ME1?
Now, THAT's false marketing




They said that there'll there'll be a customizable MAKO, an interrupt system, destructible environment, that you could leave your armor covered with blood, that each world will be big as Morrowind and long as a KOTOR world, that you could change the appearance of your weapons and that you can play as a squad mate like in KOTOR and all kinds of other crap.
ME1 was the huge dissapointment, not ME2

We actually talked about this (on page 2?) but I didn't link to the first video.

I know its for the purposes of presentation but it kills me that Liara knows everything about the Reapers and is playing the Quasar games for some reason.

[SkullandBonesmember]

InvaderErl wrote...

I'm not going to get into that argument at the moment but that wasn't what you inititally asserted.

So again to answer your question -  no, they didn't cut down on the dialogue for the shooter crowd.

Oh, I'm so sorry. Thought it was implied. I'll go edit that post right now.

[BlackyBlack]

I bet most of these ignorant ME2 haters would have really hated ME1 if they followed it from the start.

When ME1 came out the forums were filled with people complaining it's not an RPG and complaining about the Mako

I also remember that back when it was announced that ammo was unlimited people complained why and didn't like it

[InvaderErl]

Spot on. I remember a lot of hate flying ME1's way when the game was released, all the way until ME2 info started showing up and people had something new to occupy them.

Its just the way of the internet.

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I'm not going to get into that argument at the moment but that wasn't what you inititally asserted.

So again to answer your question -  no, they didn't cut down on the dialogue for the shooter crowd.

Oh, I'm so sorry. Thought it was implied. I'll go edit that post right now.

Okay then in any case, still no.

Look to the second post.

http://social.biowar...5/index/2816665

Ash/Kaiden  come out on top but Tali actually has more to say than her ME1 self and Garrus is roughly even and Liara and Wrex fall in the lower half when ranked by total lines spoken when compared to all squadmates.

Also, Ecael shows that while generic dialogue in ME2 is at least different depending on the squadmate - ME1's generic dialogue is total cut and paste.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 juin 2010 - 09:56 .

[BlackyBlack]

@ Smudboy
Go check out all of ME1's previews at IGN (you seem to have a lot of free time to bash ME2) and see how much BS Bioware said that was never in the game and THEN complain about how ME2 had minor false marketing

Modifié par BlackyBlack, 12 juin 2010 - 10:12 .

[InvaderErl]

Heh, I remembery at one point they said we'd be able to set up those barriers that the Geth always use for cover.

Where did THAT go.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 juin 2010 - 10:09 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

BlackyBlack wrote...

I bet most of these ignorant ME2 haters would have really hated ME1 if they followed it from the start.
When ME1 came out the forums were filled with people complaining it's not an RPG and complaining about the Mako
I also remember that back when it was announced that ammo was unlimited people complained why and didn't like it

I was around for the first board.

There were 2 types of people complaining about ME1.

The "WE WANTZ MOAR 'SPLOSHUNS" crowd which made up the majority and then the "NOT ENUFF STATS" crowd and stats/skills are role playing in the most shallow of ways as my buddy from the original board put it.

InvaderErl wrote...

Okay then in any case, still no.

Look to the second post.

http://social.biowar...5/index/2816665

Ash/Kaiden  come out on top but Tali actually has more to say than her ME1 self and Garrus is roughly even and Liara and Wrex fall in the lower half when ranked by total lines spoken when compared to all squadmates.

Also, Ecael shows that while generic dialogue in ME2 is at least different depending on the squadmate - ME1's generic dialogue is total cut and paste.

Still no. The ones who weren't content with dialogue in ME2 and make up groups like this-
http://social.bioware.com/group/1763/

were disappointed with the lack of personal ONE ON ONE chats in relaxed enviroments and any form of entire crew debriefings, not random handful of lines on HUB worlds or in between combat.  

You may be content with those little moments that hardly interfere with your headshots, but we weren't.

[InvaderErl]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Still no. The ones who weren't content with dialogue in ME2 and make up groups like this-
http://social.bioware.com/group/1763/

were disappointed with the lack of personal ONE ON ONE chats in relaxed enviroments and any form of entire crew debriefings, not random handful of lines on HUB worlds or in between combat.  

You may be content with those little moments that hardly interfere with your headshots, but we weren't.

Hey, I'm always up for more dialogue. I hated how nobody in ME1 talked during the meetings aside from Kaiden/Liara/Ashley. I think I heard Garrus or Tali speak up once maybe?

But seriously, I just provided evidence that your assertion was wrong. So there's that.

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

I was around for the first
board.

There were 2 types of people complaining about ME1.

The
"WE WANTZ MOAR 'SPLOSHUNS" crowd which made up the majority and then
the "NOT ENUFF STATS" crowd and stats/skills are role playing in the
most shallow of ways as my buddy from the original board put it.

I was lurking in those days and I saw exactly the kind of posts that Blacky was talking about.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 juin 2010 - 10:17 .

[Teknor]

His hatred for shooter crowd clouds his judgement. Sad.

[InvaderErl]

Teknor wrote...

His hatred for shooter crowd clouds his judgement. Sad.

Its the old, "SHOOTERZ r FOR TEH STUPID PEOPLZ" argument.

Okay, thank you - I will go back to playing Bioshock now.

[AmstradHero]

Ah, how skillful. You've managed to cherry-pick bits and pieces out of interviews and promotional materials and gameplay bits that supposedly prove how inaccurate the promotional material is.
1) Promotional material always exaggerates to some degree the content of a game/movie/book/product/whatever. Deal with it.
2) Some of the "errors" you've pointed out are laughably weak and in other cases blatantly inaccurate.

I don't disagree that you have a couple of points here and there... but on the whole, I'm going to go with the following (number modified) quote:
"Yeah, I think somebody owes me the last ten minutes of my life back."