374 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

I wonder if the moderators care about spam and off-topic posts? Or are they okay with it as long as it derails only threads that contain criticism?

Anyway, it's interesting that still no one has even tried to debate the arguments in the video. As usual, the weapons of choice are attempts to derail the thread, and insults. But maybe that's just the way how discussions on shooter forums go? I do miss the days when the BioWare forums were a place with civilized discussions among RPG players.

I tried, other people tried. It just didn't go long. It's not that there's a lot to discuss either as some of the points on the video are "baaaaaaaaaaang", "what?", "no", "nope", "it's not", "what you see is what you get", etc. Not the best way to start a discussion, and I don't think that was his intention. The video has a funny aproach, it didn't bring a big discussion, smudboy tried to make the lolz.

You win sir.  It was for fun.  If people can't get that, then wow...

(You'd think some internet memes, the muppets song, using Family Feud sound effects and imagery, might be considered a bit jovial.  Serious stuff.)

With that said, from the video, you can still come up with actual, rational arguments.

RGF did make his opinions known, and I replied to them. See?  This is called an intelligent, mature response.  He doesn't have to respond, because he said what he felt.  The same way I said what I felt in the video.

(Although I admit I'm pretty damn lazy to relisten to everything just to level out the audio..)

If people have an actual beef, like the "real time macro thing", then they can make that point.  For example, I don't see a macro as being a massive jump in doing something in "real time", when functionality is the same, but others might.  It's a legitimate argument.

Modifié par smudboy, 09 juin 2010 - 01:05 .

[Massadonious1]

smudboy wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
No **** Sherlock. If you respect my "opinion", whatever you think it to be, why are you bringing **** into this?

Essentially, **** off.

The pinnacle of civilized discussion, clearly.

And don't think his "arguments" is some kind of genius at work. He freely admitted in the thread for his first video that one of the reasons he did it was to rile people up.

Maybe I'll take him more seriously when he starts taking himself more seriously.

You give an ad hom, you get it right back in your face.  Pretty simple really.

He suggested you were a troll and you respond with a "f-you?". That goes way beyond countering ad-hom. I would hate to see what would happen if I insulted your mother. We both might be subjects on a future Law & Order featuring more attractive versions of ourselves.

smudboy wrote..
Where did I freely admit this?  I might've.  I know why I made that plot analysis.  It most certainly wasn't just to rile people up, unless you mean to get people thinking and asking questions.

After looking back at all 19 pages, I can't find where you suggested as such. Maybe you edited it, or maybe I saw something that I wanted to see but wasn't really anything to begin with. Regardless, my particular response was never directed at you personally, more at the person that suggested that no one was really arguing your points or having a rational discussion, something you yourself weren't doing when you responded to that particular post. You could of easily ignored it.

[Tragick Flaw]

smudboy wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
No **** Sherlock. If you respect my "opinion", whatever you think it to be, why are you bringing **** into this?

Essentially, **** off.

The pinnacle of civilized discussion, clearly.

And don't think his "arguments" is some kind of genius at work. He freely admitted in the thread for his first video that one of the reasons he did it was to rile people up.

Maybe I'll take him more seriously when he starts taking himself more seriously.

If he had something intelligent to ask, I'd have answered as such.

You give an ad hom, you get it right back in your face.  Pretty simple really.

I don't think my arguments are some genius at work, either.  I just call em as I see em.  Don't like it?  Don't care?

Don't bother.

Where did I freely admit this?  I might've.  I know why I made that plot analysis.  It most certainly wasn't just to rile people up, unless you mean to get people thinking and asking questions.

Why did you answer then if you didn't think he had anything intelligent to ask?

[smudboy]

Massadonious1 wrote...

He suggested you were a troll and you respond with a "f-you?". That goes way beyond countering ad-hom. I would hate to see what would happen if I insulted your mother. We both might be subjects on a future Law & Order featuring more attractive versions of ourselves.

I responded with more than just that.

I like to make my point, and then swear, if that's what it takes to make someone understand.

I'm just special like that.  He apparently was only interested in my motivation.

Are we going to keep talking about my character or actually have a discussion here?

[smudboy]

Tragick Flaw wrote...
Why did you answer then if you didn't think he had anything intelligent to ask?

Faith in humanity.  (Also, stupidity is entertaining.)

[glacier1701]

Jzadek72 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Jzadek72 wrote...

So, do you have a life, or do you just spend it ****ing about a game. Just give it a rest.

No.  And no.

This forum needs less trolls.

And yes, that's directed at you. And before you jump on the "different opinion doesn't mean troll" bandwagon, I realise that. I respect that you didn't like the game. I did. Different opinion. If, after the game was out, you made a couple of threads about why you thought it sucked, then fair enough. But months after it's release, if you're STILL spamming the forums with reasons why you didn't like it, then yes, that makes you a troll.

 I'll see if I can find a link to a Christina Norman interview that basically trashes your arguement. What she says in it is that when a game is released the ONLY people they look at for reviews on the game are game magazine reviewers because they are professional. They ignore the players posts during the first few months. So if you dont like a game and post early you get ignored. After that time is up they start checking into what the players post. So acording to that if we are here posting on things that we did not like then they will be looked at and not ignored by the people those posts are aimed at. Considering that what I see a lot of is comments on many poorly executed things within the game which are at odds with the reviews that suggests to me that BioWare has a problem. It is interesting to note that some within BioWare have noted that dichotomy between what the players are saying and what the reviewers said and are working on possible ways to improve. The problem seems to be that the ONE person who is in overall charge of ME still thinks that the game and most of its aspects were good and that even the things we players have vented all over are good and somehow the fault of the players for them not seeing the right way to use them.



NOTE: Found the interview here and you'll find her comments around the 11-12 minute mark. Thought I had remembered her saying months but she says weeks. However the thing is that our comments are not really looked at early on but rather at a later date because we are not professional. Which seems a bit weird if people commenting here are actually reviewers in real life. Kinda nuts to say that.

Modifié par glacier1701, 09 juin 2010 - 02:29 .

[Ecael]

glacier1701 wrote...

NOTE: Found the interview here and you'll find her comments around the 11-12 minute mark. Thought I had remembered her saying months but she says weeks. However the thing is that our comments are not really looked at early on but rather at a later date because we are not professional. Which seems a bit weird if people commenting here are actually reviewers in real life. Kinda nuts to say that.

I'd say it's more because most of the people who are automatically dissatisfied with the game (and voice their opinion immediately) will leave after a while because they've found something better to do.

As for the ones that stick around, well... there's fewer of them and they're not really doing anything useful than saying "This part sucks, this part sucks, make this part more like ME1/ME2 again".

If BioWare intended on making something "like ME1 again" or "like ME2 again", they certainly don't need someone on a forum telling them to do so. The same people developed both games, after all.

[WilliamShatner]

Ecael wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Ecael wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

Its was good and I hope all the ****ing everyone did in the first 3 weeks the game came out had a good impact on Biowares writers and game designers from the game.

It had an impact, alright - now they hardly show up. When they do, they automatically get flamed regardless of what they say, and their words are either interpreted as saying "BioWare thinks we're all stupid!" or "EA is indoctrinating them!"

And for the people complaining about the plot non-stop and wondering why any trolls take forever for the other mods to deal with, watch Mass Effect 2's credits again and look who's on the Quality Assurance Story Team.

They had a Quality Assurance Story Team?

Yup. I remember hearing somewhere that they formed a QA Story Team for Mass Effect 2 to test potential scenarios beforehand (so that they don't waste resources on cutscenes, animations and missions that they'll never use).

They also doubled the number of writers working on Mass Effect 2, keeping the original 5.

That explains a lot.  Most things that go through so many writers turn out rubbish.

So Mass Effect 1 is also rubbish for having 5 writers, and Dragon Age for having 7?

Most games only need one. That is, if they even use one.

In terms of writing i would say Mass Effect is the best, then Dragon Age, then ME2. 

Thus proving my point that the more writers on something the more the quality suffers.

So Dragon Age: Awakening is the best BioWare product ever having only 2 writers assigned to it?

And how much time/money was spent on Awakening in relation to the other games?

[Ecael]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Ecael wrote...

So Dragon Age: Awakening is the best BioWare product ever having only 2 writers assigned to it?

And how much time/money was spent on Awakening in relation to the other games?

I wouldn't know, other than the fact that they paid only two writers for their time.

[glacier1701]

Ecael wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...

NOTE: Found the interview here and you'll find her comments around the 11-12 minute mark. Thought I had remembered her saying months but she says weeks. However the thing is that our comments are not really looked at early on but rather at a later date because we are not professional. Which seems a bit weird if people commenting here are actually reviewers in real life. Kinda nuts to say that.

I'd say it's more because most of the people who are automatically dissatisfied with the game (and voice their opinion immediately) will leave after a while because they've found something better to do.

As for the ones that stick around, well... there's fewer of them and they're not really doing anything useful than saying "This part sucks, this part sucks, make this part more like ME1/ME2 again".

If BioWare intended on making something "like ME1 again" or "like ME2 again", they certainly don't need someone on a forum telling them to do so. The same people developed both games, after all.

I also suppose it might have something to do with the fact that reviewers, for the most part, play the game only once (and not always all the way through at that) while we players are doing multiple playthroughs. After a few weeks if we cant stand it then they have failed and our comments are a guide to that. The fact that we are still playing while finding fault means that the game, in some ways, has suceeded.

[Jzadek72]

smudboy wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

He suggested you were a troll and you respond with a "f-you?". That goes way beyond countering ad-hom. I would hate to see what would happen if I insulted your mother. We both might be subjects on a future Law & Order featuring more attractive versions of ourselves.

I responded with more than just that.

I like to make my point, and then swear, if that's what it takes to make someone understand.

I'm just special like that.  He apparently was only interested in my motivation.

Are we going to keep talking about my character or actually have a discussion here?

And your motivation was, and I quote, "Because I can." Seems like you have way to much time on your hands.

[smudboy]

Jzadek72 wrote...
And your motivation was, and I quote, "Because I can." Seems like you have way to much time on your hands.

You are very observant.

Any other great conversational topics you've got there chief?  Or shall we start up with the f-bombs again?  Cause that's as relevant a topic for you.

Modifié par smudboy, 09 juin 2010 - 10:24 .

[Warfister]

For someone who is quick to criticize, you sure don't seem to be able to take any criticism whatsoever Smudboy, as you immediately respond with name calling and swearing.



On the subject of your posts and movies, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it remains just that, your opinion. Is ME2 perfect? not by any means, no game is or there would be no point in ever making another one. It's a great game that entertains well beyond a single playthrough and for a game without multiplayer i would judge that a success.Maybe if you put all the time and energy you use to critique this one to death, you could write your own best selling game

[Kaiser Shepard]

Ecael wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Ecael wrote...

So Dragon Age: Awakening is the best BioWare product ever having only 2 writers assigned to it?

And how much time/money was spent on Awakening in relation to the other games?

I wouldn't know, other than the fact that they paid only two writers for their time.

I would personally have paid for a third one if it would've helped them come up with a McGuffin that doesn't retcon an entire ending from the previous game.

[smudboy]

Warfister wrote...

For someone who is quick to criticize, you sure don't seem to be able to take any criticism whatsoever Smudboy, as you immediately respond with name calling and swearing.

On the subject of your posts and movies, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it remains just that, your opinion. Is ME2 perfect? not by any means, no game is or there would be no point in ever making another one. It's a great game that entertains well beyond a single playthrough and for a game without multiplayer i would judge that a success.Maybe if you put all the time and energy you use to critique this one to death, you could write your own best selling game

I love criticism.  Lay it on.  I'm analytical.

Unless you like ad hom remarks, or want to talk about my life, spare time, character, or motivation, then no.  Send me an email; or better yet, don't bother.

A story, any kind, within any media, is more than just entertainment.  Or at least it should be.  If not then it is merely a one dimensional tale of sensationalism, hopefully well constructed.  If not, me, or someone with half a brain, will notice the flaws.

In regards to this video, it was fun to make, not to be taken too seriously. If you can't get that and see it as a personal attack on...something or someone, well: you're wrong.  (Heck, one guy wants me to apologize to Bioware for comparing it to Matrix Reloaded as a crime against humanity, or something.)  Have a laugh.  No?  Then...go away.

[cachx]

It wasn't so bad, nor do I think it was meant to be taken seriously, so I didn't.

At least someone else wonders who the hell was that "Game" rapper... guy.

[Bore u 2 death]

Funny at certain points, particularly the guy named "Game".

[kraidy1117]

Was funny but wrong. Loved it when Smudboy said the commands was a lie. In ME you could could not tell liara to go to one place and Ash go to a diffrent, in ME2 you can say Tell miri to go to a place while telling Garrus to go to the other side. So yes there was not alot of lies, but this video did make me laugh.

[Bluko]

What's the point of these videos?

I mean this one is somewhat amusing in that you have the Devs and what not tripping on their own words. But other then that it's like so? Games change a lot while in development, which is why Devs usuallly don't comment or give news on anything unless they are almost certain it's going to be in the final release. Oh no Thane is using a Sniper Rifle! The horror! That totally violates what that Dev just said! Let us LOL @ Bioware for their failure.



Look smudboy not trying to attack you here, but your vids kind of seem like lame knock-offs of RedLetterMedia's reviews of the Star Wars prequels. While those are genuinely entertaining, mainly because the Star Wars prequels do suck, your videos not so much. I dunno if you're trying to be funny while making a point or are simply trying to rile up ME2 fans. Regardless ME2 is a better game. Pretty much every single Reviewer said that. Sure it's missing a few things, and in some ways ME1 was better a game.

Yet I constantly see people making the arguement that ME2 is plot failure or full of plotholes. I'd say ME2's story isn't quite as strong as ME1, but ME2 is certainly not a "plot failure". Despite what you may think ME2's plot shares many elements with the most popular Science-Fiction/Fantasy settings out there.

All stories, all movies, all video games have plotholes. The plotholes in ME2 are hardly any worse then those in ME1. This whole charade of bitter ME1fans bashing any aspect of ME2 that they can seems childish to me. Instead of tearing apart the problems in ME2 why not do something constructive like make suggestions as to how ME3 could do things better.

Saying something sucks or is stupid isn't helpful to the Devs. People complained about the Mako and Elevators, so they removed, and now a number of people are upset about that. This could have been averted if people had actually bothered to leave constructive feedback. Instead of just saying the Mako sucked, people could have gone into detail about issues with the controls or the poor terrain negotiation. But nope people just whined and now there is absolutely no vehicle element in ME2, besides DLC. Which is why we don't big environments like in ME1 to explore. So you see it actually caused almost a Domino effect of problems.

My point? Complaining is absolutely useless unless you offer some kind of suggestion as to resolve the problem/issue at hand.

[InvaderErl]

[bjdbwea]

Bluko wrote...

Saying something sucks or is stupid isn't helpful to the Devs. People complained about the Mako and Elevators, so they removed, and now a number of people are upset about that. This could have been averted if people had actually bothered to leave constructive feedback. Instead of just saying the Mako sucked, people could have gone into detail about issues with the controls or the poor terrain negotiation. But nope people just whined and now there is absolutely no vehicle element in ME2, besides DLC. Which is why we don't big environments like in ME1 to explore. So you see it actually caused almost a Domino effect of problems.

You can bet there was a lot of constructive feedback and ideas how to improve said things. Just like there are now. The thing is, BioWare/EA obviously wanted to remove the stuff. The complaints were only a convenient excuse, I think. And anyway, it's the job of the developers to think about ways of improving gameplay elements that didn't work perfectly yet. You almost make it sound as if the only alternatives were the community telling them exactly what to do, or cutting the content altogether like they did.

[Warfister]

smudboy wrote...

Warfister wrote...

For someone who is quick to criticize, you sure don't seem to be able to take any criticism whatsoever Smudboy, as you immediately respond with name calling and swearing.

On the subject of your posts and movies, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it remains just that, your opinion. Is ME2 perfect? not by any means, no game is or there would be no point in ever making another one. It's a great game that entertains well beyond a single playthrough and for a game without multiplayer i would judge that a success.Maybe if you put all the time and energy you use to critique this one to death, you could write your own best selling game

I love criticism.  Lay it on.  I'm analytical.

Unless you like ad hom remarks, or want to talk about my life, spare time, character, or motivation, then no.  Send me an email; or better yet, don't bother.

A story, any kind, within any media, is more than just entertainment.  Or at least it should be.  If not then it is merely a one dimensional tale of sensationalism, hopefully well constructed.  If not, me, or someone with half a brain, will notice the flaws.

In regards to this video, it was fun to make, not to be taken too seriously. If you can't get that and see it as a personal attack on...something or someone, well: you're wrong.  (Heck, one guy wants me to apologize to Bioware for comparing it to Matrix Reloaded as a crime against humanity, or something.)  Have a laugh.  No?  Then...go away.

Ah, i see. If someone doesn't happen to like something you did, not find it funny or pretty much disagree in any way, they should  "go away" .Following your logic, if you dont like the plot or the gameplay or whatever else in ME2 you should "__ ____" ?

[jgordon11]

While I don’t agree with people just attacking you, smudboy, you do like the same exact thing to the people in your video. You make fun of the comments people make by throwing in snide marks most of the time it’s not even relevant to the whole the marketing was misleading theme, you just did it anyways. For some of the people you just say why are you even here?
To me, smudboy it seems you are just bitter that mass effect 2 didn't turn out exactly what you wanted it to be (you know because all of the people who reviewed the game clearly are lesser beings and don't know anything) so you just looked for little things you could complain about. The end result is you cherry pick these little clips and pull them out of context so they sound a little more stupid and you can throw your own snide little remarks about how ME2 sucks. We get it you don't like ME2. There is another opinion out there that is just as valid as your own so don't make your side out as fact or the stronger argument because it’s just your personal opinion.

Most of the stuff you show in that video is not even completely untrue... For almost every clip I could make a sound argument against what you say (considering the other view point is what analytical people do btw they analyze the whole issue). Given some of the comments are exaggerations (they are trying to hype their product), but you dismiss them like they are completely wrong and absolutely ridiculous things to say. If you want I could list all of them, but considering the whole thing is supposed to be comical I won't.

In the end smudboy all you do is come off as not only snobbish (just like your other video), but desperate for any way to criticize the game and for other people to hear your opinion. Finally I completely understand that it was meant to be humorous, the problem with that is many people didn't find it that funny because all your jokes relied on people sharing your rather narrow view of mass effect 2 and its faults.

(BTW it could just be me not reading the whole thread, but the guy who asked you to apologize for comparing ME2 to the Matrix Reloaded was probably joking as well to an extent and wasn't actually asking for an apology)

Modifié par jgordon11, 10 juin 2010 - 07:51 .

[Bluko]

bjdbwea wrote...
You can bet there was a lot of constructive feedback and ideas how to improve said things. Just like there are now. The thing is, BioWare/EA obviously wanted to remove the stuff. The complaints were only a convenient excuse, I think. And anyway, it's the job of the developers to think about ways of improving gameplay elements that didn't work perfectly yet. You almost make it sound as if the only alternatives were the community telling them exactly what to do, or cutting the content altogether like they did.

Well the problem is while there is some constructive criticism from users on the forums, most of the time it isn't. Sadly because there's usually so much non-sense flying around most Devs don't even look at forums anymore for reliable feedback. Problem with that is they only really get feedback from the people who officially review the game. Thing is game reviewers won't/can't raise all the issues we can.

Not that I think there's much that you can really about it, since that's just how things are on most boards. Also I won't lie not every single one of my posts is super constructive either.

Going back to the example of the Mako, look at their perspective. You are a Dev you go on the forums quickly for a few minutes to see some general feedback. There are maybe two topics on the first page regarding how the Mako sucks or had bad controls. All people say is how bad every feature of it was. If people disliked it that much are you going to waste time developing missions for the Mako which nobody seemed to like? Probably not.

I can bet the same thing will happen to Planet Scanning. They will probably totally rip it out and resources, because almost everyone hates Planet Scanning. I'm not a fan of it myself, but I think it could be fixed to be less tedious. But most folks don't offer solutions so that's probably not going to happen. Obviously it's still up to the Devs to make the game "good", you're right. I'm just saying it would be nice to see constructive topics a bit more often.

I at least don't remember the old boards being filled with character support threads. <_<

[kraidy1117]

bjdbwea wrote...

Bluko wrote...

Saying something sucks or is stupid isn't helpful to the Devs. People complained about the Mako and Elevators, so they removed, and now a number of people are upset about that. This could have been averted if people had actually bothered to leave constructive feedback. Instead of just saying the Mako sucked, people could have gone into detail about issues with the controls or the poor terrain negotiation. But nope people just whined and now there is absolutely no vehicle element in ME2, besides DLC. Which is why we don't big environments like in ME1 to explore. So you see it actually caused almost a Domino effect of problems.

You can bet there was a lot of constructive feedback and ideas how to improve said things. Just like there are now. The thing is, BioWare/EA obviously wanted to remove the stuff. The complaints were only a convenient excuse, I think. And anyway, it's the job of the developers to think about ways of improving gameplay elements that didn't work perfectly yet. You almost make it sound as if the only alternatives were the community telling them exactly what to do, or cutting the content altogether like they did.

Bioware only cares about mnoey and the mass, not your fans. Bioware will get rid of something to save money and to pleese the mass.