605 réponses à ce sujet

[Alyka]

ejoslin wrote...

soignee wrote...

I want a pony. WHERE IS MY PONY.

Here you go!  A pretty pretty pony, just for you!

DEAR MAKER! lol

[Herr Uhl]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

The problem is that you have to be as beautiful as Morrigan is to get away with all that ****iness....some of us just weren't born with that equipment and have to rely on other strategies.  

So now you reduce men's attraction to Morrigan with her just being eye-candy.

I'm terribly appalled.

[Carmen_Willow]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

The problem is that you have to be as beautiful as Morrigan is to get away with all that ****iness....some of us just weren't born with that equipment and have to rely on other strategies.  

So now you reduce men's attraction to Morrigan with her just being eye-candy.

I'm terribly appalled.

No you misunderstand....her beauty allows her to be more ****y than an ordinary girl, but I am certain that she has other attractions for the guys.  What I am saying is that beauty for either male or female humans allows that person to get away with more in terms of crappy behavior.  Not my opinion, there are several well run experiments that support that hypothesis. I'm just saying that we females who aren't stunningly beautiful have to amend our ****iness.

[errant_knight]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

I certainly don't expect Ali to worship my PC's. But real love is stronger than biggotry and it is stronger than society's expectations. It is stronger than hate. It is stronger than vengeance. It is stronger than duty. And this does not mean those things may not be important and you can't have those things too but the crux is love is stronger. And Alistairs love is NOT.

This is all a two-way street, however.  If your PC truly loves him, then she would have to love that he wants to do good not only by her but by other people.  And that he's not callously irresponsible.

But it is true that the romance is written such that the PC is not always Alistair's be-all end-all.  My take is that, regardless of whether they stay together or not, he will love the PC his whole life.  If he does not have substantial duty to fall back on- the kingship, basically- then he is devastated by losing her.

My PC's never wanted Ali to worship them. They did expect he would love them more than he hated Loghain.

I don't want to get into an Alistair-Loghain thing again, but as I said, this expectation ought to be a two-way street.

Yeah, I never understood why people who condemn him for walking out of the relationship can't see things from his point of view.  It's especially easy to emphathize with him if you play a HN.  Loghain is (in his mind) directly responsible for killing Duncan and Cailan.  Not to mention he planned for Eamon's assasination as well.  He basically attacked all of the family Alistair has left... and you expect him to just go along with recruiting him into the Grey Wardens?  You're asking an awful lot of him (too much obviously).

Even if it were just to sacrifice him later on (which you can't know at the time), I think the last thing Alistair would want is for Loghain to die as the hero of Fereldan.  Would that be a petty/emotional response?  Absolutely, but given the circumstances it is completely understandable. 

And keep in mind that at this point in the story, neither Alistair nor you know WHY there is such a dire need for Grey Wardens.  Alistair doesn't know that it must be a Grey Warden who kills the AD, he only knows what everyone else knows -- the legend.  I honestly believe that -- had Alistair known WHY Riordan wanted another Grey Warden -- he would have yielded to the necessity of the moment.  That's Riordan's fault for not passing on vital information the moment he first talked to you. He should have known better.  How dare he expect Alistair to accept the man he hates most in the entire world as a brother in arms? And how dare we?  It's important to remember that WE betray Alistair first....WE let Loghain live. 

 I wonder how many elven PCs would be fine with serving along side Vaughn, watching his back in battle, and depending on him to watch theirs?

[ejoslin]

Loghain also hurt the Warden and Riorden; yet they're willing to fight along side him (if you go that way). Hell, Loghain was responsible for the deaths of some of Riorden's oldest friends and of torturing him very recently. The warden was just as hunted as Alistair.

Equating Vaughn to Loghain is not really valid as he's not a warrior of renown (or of anything). Love or hate him, Loghain is a great warrior, soldier, and war hero who had saved Ferelden once. Gray Wardens only recruit the best of the best -- Loghain was one of them, Vaughn was not.

Edit: I realized on rereading that my wording was a bit confrontational and I didn't mean it that way so I reworded.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 06:48 .

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain also hurt the Warden and Riorden; yet they're willing to fight along side him (if you go that way). Hell, Loghain was responsible for the deaths of some of Riorden's oldest friends and of torturing him very recently. The warden was just as hunted as Alistair.

Equating Vaughn to Loghain is not really valid as he's not a warrior of renown (or of anything). Love or hate him, Loghain is a great warrior, soldier, and war hero who had saved Ferelden once. Gray Wardens only recruit the best of the best -- Loghain was one of them, Vaughn was not.

Edit: I realized on rereading that my wording was a bit confrontational and I didn't mean it that way so I reworded.

It's not really about the person's skill level, it's about whether they could stomach working along side them, or trust them enough to do so.

I don't think most elven PCs could deal with the idea of having Vaughn on the team--even if he was amazingly skilled. Alistair feels the same way about Loghain.

Modifié par errant_knight, 14 juin 2010 - 06:51 .

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain also hurt the Warden and Riorden; yet they're willing to fight along side him (if you go that way). Hell, Loghain was responsible for the deaths of some of Riorden's oldest friends and of torturing him very recently. The warden was just as hunted as Alistair.

Equating Vaughn to Loghain is not really valid as he's not a warrior of renown (or of anything). Love or hate him, Loghain is a great warrior, soldier, and war hero who had saved Ferelden once. Gray Wardens only recruit the best of the best -- Loghain was one of them, Vaughn was not.

Edit: I realized on rereading that my wording was a bit confrontational and I didn't mean it that way so I reworded.

It's not really about the person's skill level, it's about whether they could stomach working along side them, or trust them enough to do so.

Well, except his skill level is the only reason he IS considered for a gray warden.  Vaughn would not be, Howe would not be, etc., because they would be liabilities.  Loghain, love or hate him, is supposed to be an amazing warrior and general -- and they need all the skilled people they can get to defeat the blight which is the important thing here. 

Again, both Riorden and the Warden were also personally hurt by Loghain -- Riorden probably the most of the three of them.  Riorden's arguments are compelling; plus at that point, Loghain isn't going to betray the Wardens.  He's beaten.  He's stripped of titles and power.  He becomes the thing he thought was his greatest enemy.  He would hear the same call.  He has no reason to betray the wardens and not end the blight.  He never wanted the blight to continue, really; he didn't believe it was a true blight.

Edit: And my point is, Loghain was one of the best of the best -- Vaughn was not.  Could most city elves fight with Vaughn?  I'd dare say, really, it depends on the person, it depends on how seriously they take the blight, it depends on how much they trust the senior warden and honestly, it depends on how good a warrior Vaughn was supposed to be.  Truthfully, I'd rather be in war with someone I hate who I know is one of the best of the best than someone I like who will probably get me killed or be killed themselves within a couple of minutes without severe hand holding.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 06:59 .

[Addai]

How do Alistair threads always turn into discussions of Loghain and vice versa?  It's like a natural law.

[ejoslin]

There's already a couple of Alistair gush threads going on, though, on the front page. So the third being sidetracked is not too horrible, is it?

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain also hurt the Warden and Riorden; yet they're willing to fight along side him (if you go that way). Hell, Loghain was responsible for the deaths of some of Riorden's oldest friends and of torturing him very recently. The warden was just as hunted as Alistair.

Equating Vaughn to Loghain is not really valid as he's not a warrior of renown (or of anything). Love or hate him, Loghain is a great warrior, soldier, and war hero who had saved Ferelden once. Gray Wardens only recruit the best of the best -- Loghain was one of them, Vaughn was not.

Edit: I realized on rereading that my wording was a bit confrontational and I didn't mean it that way so I reworded.

It's not really about the person's skill level, it's about whether they could stomach working along side them, or trust them enough to do so.

Well, except his skill level is the only reason he IS considered for a gray warden.  Vaughn would not be, Howe would not be, etc., because they would be liabilities.  Loghain, love or hate him, is supposed to be an amazing warrior and general -- and they need all the skilled people they can get to defeat the blight which is the important thing here. 

Again, both Riorden and the Warden were also personally hurt by Loghain -- Riorden probably the most of the three of them.  Riorden's arguments are compelling; plus at that point, Loghain isn't going to betray the Wardens.  He's beaten.  He's stripped of titles and power.  He becomes the thing he thought was his greatest enemy.  He would hear the same call.  He has no reason to betray the wardens and not end the blight.  He never wanted the blight to continue, really; he didn't believe it was a true blight.

Edit: And my point is, Loghain was one of the best of the best -- Vaughn was not.  Could most city elves fight with Vaughn?  I'd dare say, really, it depends on the person, it depends on how seriously they take the blight, it depends on how much they trust the senior warden and honestly, it depends on how good a warrior Vaughn was supposed to be.  Truthfully, I'd rather be in war with someone I hate who I know is one of the best of the best than someone I like who will probably get me killed or be killed themselves within a couple of minutes without severe hand holding.

You're kind of ignoring my point about the emotional implications, which would take a pretty sanguine personality to ignore. But, okay.

[maxernst]

I also think it's a leap of faith to assume that you know how Loghain will respond to the Joining. Maybe he won't have any visions for months (I believe Alistair says it can happen that way). Maybe he'll think the visions he sees are an Orlesian trick.

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain also hurt the Warden and Riorden; yet they're willing to fight along side him (if you go that way). Hell, Loghain was responsible for the deaths of some of Riorden's oldest friends and of torturing him very recently. The warden was just as hunted as Alistair.

Equating Vaughn to Loghain is not really valid as he's not a warrior of renown (or of anything). Love or hate him, Loghain is a great warrior, soldier, and war hero who had saved Ferelden once. Gray Wardens only recruit the best of the best -- Loghain was one of them, Vaughn was not.

Edit: I realized on rereading that my wording was a bit confrontational and I didn't mean it that way so I reworded.

It's not really about the person's skill level, it's about whether they could stomach working along side them, or trust them enough to do so.

Well, except his skill level is the only reason he IS considered for a gray warden.  Vaughn would not be, Howe would not be, etc., because they would be liabilities.  Loghain, love or hate him, is supposed to be an amazing warrior and general -- and they need all the skilled people they can get to defeat the blight which is the important thing here. 

Again, both Riorden and the Warden were also personally hurt by Loghain -- Riorden probably the most of the three of them.  Riorden's arguments are compelling; plus at that point, Loghain isn't going to betray the Wardens.  He's beaten.  He's stripped of titles and power.  He becomes the thing he thought was his greatest enemy.  He would hear the same call.  He has no reason to betray the wardens and not end the blight.  He never wanted the blight to continue, really; he didn't believe it was a true blight.

Edit: And my point is, Loghain was one of the best of the best -- Vaughn was not.  Could most city elves fight with Vaughn?  I'd dare say, really, it depends on the person, it depends on how seriously they take the blight, it depends on how much they trust the senior warden and honestly, it depends on how good a warrior Vaughn was supposed to be.  Truthfully, I'd rather be in war with someone I hate who I know is one of the best of the best than someone I like who will probably get me killed or be killed themselves within a couple of minutes without severe hand holding.

You're kind of ignoring my point about the emotional implications, which would take a pretty sanguine personality to ignore. But, okay.

And you're not ignoring mine?  I'm saying that for some people, defeating the blight would be more important than the emotional implications. Three people were hurt by Loghain there, not just one.  One is definitely willing to put it aside, one may be willing to put it aside, and one is not at all willing to put it aside.

Edit: I don't think ignoring it IS being overly optimistic.  People react differently.  Riorden is obviously willing to put everything aside though he was probably hurt the most by Loghain.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 07:26 .

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: I don't think ignoring it IS being overly optimistic.  People react differently.  Riorden is obviously willing to put everything aside though he was probably hurt the most by Loghain.

He was hurt by Howe, not Loghain. Howe is dead.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 juin 2010 - 07:23 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: I don't think ignoring it IS being overly optimistic.  People react differently.  Riorden is obviously willing to put everything aside though he was probably hurt the most by Loghain.

He was hurt by Howe, not Loghain. Howe is dead.

Hmmm, was it only Howe?  Alistair brings up the fact that it was Loghain who was responsible for him being captured and tortured.  Isn't it discussed when they release Riorden as well?  I'd have to look it up, but I'd swear Loghain's name was brought up.  No, it's not.

And Riorden lost a ton of his brothers as well in Ostegar, including Duncan whom he went through the joining with.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 07:28 .

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: I don't think ignoring it IS being overly optimistic.  People react differently.  Riorden is obviously willing to put everything aside though he was probably hurt the most by Loghain.

He was hurt by Howe, not Loghain. Howe is dead.

Hmmm, was it only Howe?  Alistair brings up the fact that it was Loghain who was responsible for him being captured and tortured.  Isn't it discussed when they release Riorden as well?  I'd have to look it up, but I'd swear Loghain's name was brought up.

And Riorden lost a ton of his brothers as well in Ostegar, including Duncan whom he went through the joining with.

Loghain surely gave Howe the order to imprison and "question" Riordan but it's unlikely he was actively torturing him.

He went through the Joining with Duncan? Does he appear in The Calling? He was present at Alistair's Joining but other than that ... I wasn't under the impression that Riordan knew the guys who died at Ostagar personally. I didn't even expect him and Duncan to be close friends.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 juin 2010 - 07:32 .

[ejoslin]

Warden: Did you know Duncan very well?

Riorden: We went through our Joining together, more years ago than I like to remember. He was exactly the same back then -- tough as stone and just as grizzled.

Riorden: I think he understood, sooner than the rest of us, how ugly a choice it is to let the few be sacrificed to protect the many.

Riorden: Always left himself a soft spot for his recruits, though. Only way he ever let himself down.



That sounds to me like they were close friends.

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...

Warden: Did you know Duncan very well?
Riorden: We went through our Joining together, more years ago than I like to remember. He was exactly the same back then -- tough as stone and just as grizzled.
Riorden: I think he understood, sooner than the rest of us, how ugly a choice it is to let the few be sacrificed to protect the many.
Riorden: Always left himself a soft spot for his recruits, though. Only way he ever let himself down.

That sounds to me like they were close friends.

Maybe they were close friends once. Duncan was in Orlais for a while, wasn't he?
The way he is all business simply makes me think that he and Duncan weren't that close. Riordan in Orlais, Duncan Warden Commander of Ferelden.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

There's already a couple of Alistair gush threads going on, though, on the front page. So the third being sidetracked is not too horrible, is it?

One, really, but besides just commenting on the irony, it's also just that these become a cul-de-sac of the same old arguments.

Looking back upthread, the original context was whether or not it is reasonable that Alistair cuts off the relationship if you spare Loghain.  His feelings about Loghain could hardly be a mystery at that point, except if your PC has always picked dialogue options which also condemn Loghain.  If that's the case, then it's understandable that your about-face would be a kick in the gut.

Here is Alistair reacting to my PC's suggestion, just after Eamon is revived, that they work with Loghain.



No mystery what his feelings are on that point.

So while I think it is entirely reasonable to expect that Alistair, Mr. Duty himself, will not abandon the fight against the Blight, it is also entirely reasonable that if you spare Loghain, he sees any relationship he had with the Warden as being done and dusted.  Riordan knew Duncan and may have known other Fereldan Wardens, but he wasn't himself a Fereldan Warden, didn't see those men as the closest thing he'd ever had to a family, and wasn't at Ostagar himself, with all the survivor's guilt that that entails.  He also does not have to live with Loghain being in the Grey Wardens, assuming everyone survives.  He'll go back to Orlais and Alistair would have to live with Loghain being in his face.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

How do Alistair threads always turn into discussions of Loghain and vice versa?  It's like a natural law.

Simply for the fact the both tie toghther at the end in the Landsmeet and it is natural to discuss the single defining moment of both in the game I guess.

[GavrielKay]

Riodan knows that a Gray Warden is necessary to kill the archdemon. He'd probably be less keen on having Loghain join the Wardens if it was just to get another sword-arm in the battle.



From my point of view, Alistair having a line that he will not cross just makes him more realistic. He really would be a wimp if there weren't anything at all that could make him leave. He'd just be a handsome zombie. As it is, he puts up with quite a lot because he loves and trusts you. I guess I don't see how your PC can love someone that she can't respect. And how could you respect Alistair if you can get away with anything and everything - including taking as a comrade the man who killed his mentor, tried to have you killed, threw your country into a civil war during a fight for survival against the darkspawn, told the world you were a traitor, etc...



Alistair is young and idealistic. Either that's part of why your PC loves him, or a ridiculous annoyance. My PCs loved that in him and had a bit of it themselves. I do understand why many other people would want to pull their hair out over it though.

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Warden: Did you know Duncan very well?
Riorden: We went through our Joining together, more years ago than I like to remember. He was exactly the same back then -- tough as stone and just as grizzled.
Riorden: I think he understood, sooner than the rest of us, how ugly a choice it is to let the few be sacrificed to protect the many.
Riorden: Always left himself a soft spot for his recruits, though. Only way he ever let himself down.

That sounds to me like they were close friends.

Maybe they were close friends once. Duncan was in Orlais for a while, wasn't he?
The way he is all business simply makes me think that he and Duncan weren't that close. Riordan in Orlais, Duncan Warden Commander of Ferelden.

Yet they were still in touch.  Whatever, if Riorden was at Alistair's joining, he most likely knew the Ferelden Gray Wardens -- he definitely met them.  He and Duncan trained together, they continued to communicate.

Edit: An interesting aside (and it truly is just an aside), here's what the toolset says about Riorden's voice:

Grim, gravely, very masculine voice. He is the warrior and hero, and if circumstances were different he would be the center of this story and the one leading the charge against the forces of evil instead of the player. Women should find his voice attractive and men should want to be him. He is the ultimate of what we would expect a Grey Warden to be.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 08:15 .

[LadyDamodred]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: An interesting aside (and it truly is just an aside, here's what the toolset says about Riorden's voice:

Grim, gravely, very masculine voice. He is the warrior and hero, and if circumstances were different he would be the center of this story and the one leading the charge against the forces of evil instead of the player. Women should find his voice attractive and men should want to be him. He is the ultimate of what we would expect a Grey Warden to be.

Continuing this aside, where does one find notes like that in the toolset?

[ejoslin]

Under "Characters." This is the other note about Riorden. I didn't put it in my last post because I didn't want it to be seen as bolstering my argument as the toolset often has outdated information regarding stuff like that. BUT it's interesting too!

Riordan is a member of the Grey Wardens, a group of elite warriors who protect the lands against the darkspawn. This means he is a competent soldier to begin with, and in this case he is also a veteran who has been with the Wardens for a very long time. Having lost contact with the local Grey Wardens, Riordan was sent to the capital to find out what had become of them -- and then was taken prisoner by Teyrn Loghain and tortured. Once released, he realizes that it now falls on him and the few Grey Wardens that remain to deal with the oncoming darkspawn threat.

Edit: And he's 45.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 08:21 .