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Help men everywhere understand the female obsession with Dragon Age's Alistair


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#401
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AnniLau wrote...

Gemaphrodite wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
called her a "dirty infertile elf mage" in front of all her friends"


Never happened.


Lol. Denial.


Not denial, truth. He explains why he can't be with an Elf and/or Mage as King and also that two Grey Wardens can't have children together, but the first is practical and the second is as much about him as it is the PC. And, yes, he does have unfortunate timing, but he never refers to the PC as a "dirty, infertile Elf Mage."


Ugh. I was joking. I thought maybe you were joking like "never happened, your sister is telling fibs" because you Posted Image him. Obviously not.

#402
Xandurpein

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klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: And I roleplayed that character probably more in depth than my others.  I have no clue what you mean by you can't roleplay a consistent character unspoiled.  No one, if they're unspoiled, have any clue WHAT direction the authors are going to take.

What I mean is that you likely forget or don't even uncover important information. Your character is supposed to be living and breathing in a world you hardly know. Or maye this is simply my problem, it took me a while and a lot of extra reading to have a clue what my character would probaly feel about certain choices.


This is true. It is perfectly excusable if a player doesn't pay attention properly, or don't think things through enough to realize that a King marrying an elf would be socially unacceptable, but there is no way a real elf would be cluless about it in the game.

#403
Asdara

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Re-reading the Elf gets dumped by Alistair scenario - which brings back all sorts of unhappy memories of my long ago first play that will be cleansed with this current play through I hope - a thought has newly occurred to me.



Alistair could have become king to stop the Blight and then abdicated in favor of love and his promises. I mean, yes duty and yes the need for a King is apparent and justified while the Archdemon is bearing down on us - but after that, maintaing the throne is really done for the (in my opinion) somewhat hollow reason of the Therin Bloodline. Political upheaval sucks, but sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles. It wouldn't do as much damage to the country as darkspawn hordes by half. So... yeah. I can't believe I just realized that.

#404
Addai

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ejoslin wrote...
Edit: And I roleplayed that character probably more in depth than my others.  I have no clue what you mean by you can't roleplay a consistent character unspoiled.  No one, if they're unspoiled, has any clue WHAT direction the authors are going to take.

Won't speak for klarabella, but how I understand what she said is that the player likely has not absorbed enough game lore to have the kind of background knowledge that a person actually living in that time and culture would.  An immersed person would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither an elf nor a mage, let alone an elven mage, could sit on Ferelden's throne.  Having spoiler knowledge is the next best thing.  Also, game mechanics force you into awkwardness that again requires some manipulation based on spoiler knowledge.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 juin 2010 - 09:38 .


#405
Asdara

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Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: And I roleplayed that character probably more in depth than my others.  I have no clue what you mean by you can't roleplay a consistent character unspoiled.  No one, if they're unspoiled, has any clue WHAT direction the authors are going to take.

Won't speak for klarabella, but how I understand what she said is that the player likely has not absorbed enough game lore to have the kind of background knowledge that a person actually living in that time and culture would.  An immersed person would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither an elf nor a mage, let alone an elven mage, could sit on Ferelden's throne.  Having spoiler knowledge is the next best thing.  Also, game mechanics force you into awkwardness that again requires some manipulation based on spoiler knowledge.


I think it really depends on how closely you're reading the Codex entries.  There is a nearly overwhelming amount of information in there.  For instance, did you know that it's considered an act against your kind for a Dalish to consort with a Human because Elven and Human pairings always produce a Human child?  I did, cause I read it - but my character apparently had no clue (based on dialog options, or lack there of).  Fun stuff.  

For Mage anything I think it's pretty obvious about the throne sitting being not an option - Jowan will tell you as much if you ask why Isolde didn't want to report Connor: a mage cannot hold a title.  For regular Elf... still unlikely given their second class citizenship.  I knew my Elf had no shot at royalty - what I didn't know was that Alistair would turn around from "I don't want to be King!  Neva!" to "Wait!  Don't make HER Queen!  She tricked us / I want Loghain to die or no love!"  There's no codex for that... 

Modifié par Asdara, 14 juin 2010 - 09:43 .


#406
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Gemaphrodite wrote...

I agree with Ejoslin, I think. (Earlier post: I've been writting this for ages!)

Though I am failing to understand how you can come to a satisfactory conclusion about how these fictional characters would react in a real life situation. Isn't it something that is simply impossible to determine? All we know of these characters is what we have seen or read in a few hours (or a few hundred!) of gameplay. Snippets of their lives in effect. Some people can react totally differently to how they would normally react when faced with a new situation. Some people can act completely out of character and it may be shocking to see. If you had a blight on your hands, and you knew it really was a matter of life or death, you might be more willing to put aside personal differences; at least until it was all over (and then you could throw a hissy fit or chop off their head! However you deal with these things!)  Or you might throw a wobberly then come back after you've calmed down a bit.

In my opinion; although I understand Alistair's hatred for Loghain, finishing the job and seeing it through to the bitter end was a responsibility as a Grey Warden. He had put so much time and effort (and love) into getting that far. I was quite surprised when I learnt that he ditched it if you recruited Loghain. You wish he'd been able to put the blight before his pride and emotions. Especially as Alistair seemed to have so much sorrow in his heart about Duncan and Cailan. I know it was Loghain who pulled out and left them in that terrible situtation, which is unforgiveable of course, but the Darkspawn were the real enemy and they did a pretty good job of creating chum out of them. Also, I felt that if he loved my PC, it was pretty mean to bog off and leave me to face the darkspawn without his help/support. It was more his battle, in a way, than mine. (I just wanted Arl Howe's blood!) But like I say, it's impossible to know and to Alistair his reaction was a fair one.

Ho hum. That's just my take on it. Though you'll have to forgive me if I've missed out on a lot of detail/history/lore. I've played the games and read the books, but didn't take much of it in other than what was on the surface.
 


"Throw a wobberly?"  Oh, I gotta add thatto my vocabulary.  That's great.

This is a great post and it sums up the view held by many here.

Although, for me, the more time I spend here on the forums, the more I feel that Alistair's threatening to leave the Warden's if you take Loghain is simply a game mechanic meant to force the player into a choice. 

Though I am failing to understand how you can come to a satisfactory conclusion about how these fictional characters would react in a real life situation. Isn't it something that is simply impossible to determine?


Exactly.  It is, ultimately, up to the interpretation of the player.   Some forumites will argue that "Thou shalt not go against the writings of thy games creators."  But you know what?  The game was written to be open to interpretation - otherwise there would be no decisions or plot devices included in the game.

So while I enjoy discussions about the characters and their motivations and everyone's PC's and their motivations . . . ultimately no noe can say what a few pixels would do if granted life.

#407
ejoslin

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klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: And I roleplayed that character probably more in depth than my others.  I have no clue what you mean by you can't roleplay a consistent character unspoiled.  No one, if they're unspoiled, have any clue WHAT direction the authors are going to take.

What I mean is that you likely forget or don't even uncover important information. Your character is supposed to be living and breathing in a world you hardly know. Or maye this is simply my problem, it took me a while and a lot of extra reading to have a clue what my character would probaly feel about certain choices.


See, I took the story like reading a book.  I had one rule to my first play through -- no reloading (I did reload once, but that was to change my party at the gates).  I took each decision as it came, and based those decisions based on information as it came at me.  If anything, that playthrough was far more consistent than my subsequent one where I would handwave certain things because I knew the results.

And once you know the game mechanics, you're not roleplaying so much as playing to get the best results.  Very few people in a romance with Alistair are going to give the hardening line -- so when you do so, is that really consistently roleplaying a character in love?  Or is it picking a response for the result?

Edit: And I read every single codex entry trying to figure out WHAT was best.  Most of the characters were very sheltered anyway; yes, the world was strange to me, but it was strange to them as well!

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 juin 2010 - 09:43 .


#408
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Xandurpein wrote...

Isn't the bottom line that it is perfectly reasonable for someone to make Loghain a Grey Warden, for a number of reasons. But equally reasonable for someone else to refuse to do it?

It may only be one correct answer for each individual, but that is not as saying there is only one correct answer that is the same for everyone.


This.

#409
Weiser_Cain

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Then use code.

/lightremark

Or maybe...

/clueless

:)

It isn't a clueless remark as it does apply to a good chunk of women. I have seen it way too often to be persuaded otherwise... Of course the thread has moved on so if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about ignore this post.

#410
Herr Uhl

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ejoslin wrote...

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: And I roleplayed that character probably more in depth than my others.  I have no clue what you mean by you can't roleplay a consistent character unspoiled.  No one, if they're unspoiled, have any clue WHAT direction the authors are going to take.

What I mean is that you likely forget or don't even uncover important information. Your character is supposed to be living and breathing in a world you hardly know. Or maye this is simply my problem, it took me a while and a lot of extra reading to have a clue what my character would probaly feel about certain choices.


See, I took the story like reading a book.  I had one rule to my first play through -- no reloading (I did reload once, but that was to change my party at the gates).  I took each decision as it came, and based those decisions based on information as it came at me.  If anything, that playthrough was far more consistent than my subsequent one where I would handwave certain things because I knew the results.

And once you know the game mechanics, you're not roleplaying so much as playing to get the best results.  Very few people in a romance with Alistair are going to give the hardening line -- so when you do so, is that really consistently roleplaying a character in love?  Or is it picking a response for the result?


Depends on how you define spoilers though. Picking up trivia about the game scene isn't spoilers IMO. Reading the stolen throne or something similar for example.

I think that is what she means by it.

#411
nos_astra

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Herr Uhl wrote...
Depends on how you define spoilers though. Picking up trivia about the game scene isn't spoilers IMO. Reading the stolen throne or something similar for example.

I think that is what she means by it.

:huh: I suppose, it is. ^_^

#412
maxernst

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I think part of it is that a lot of people seem to have little sense of the limits of royal power. They imagine that kings could do whatever they wanted, when in fact they needed to abide by law and custom or they would be forced from their throne. Edward VIII is the obvious example of someone who was compelled to abdicate due to his choice of wife. Given the numerous negative reactions an elf mage PC gets from NPC's throughout the game, it should be pretty obvious to anyone that there is a great deal of prejudice against you.

#413
AnniLau

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Gemaphrodite wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Gemaphrodite wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
called her a "dirty infertile elf mage" in front of all her friends"


Never happened.


Lol. Denial.


Not denial, truth. He explains why he can't be with an Elf and/or Mage as King and also that two Grey Wardens can't have children together, but the first is practical and the second is as much about him as it is the PC. And, yes, he does have unfortunate timing, but he never refers to the PC as a "dirty, infertile Elf Mage."


Ugh. I was joking. I thought maybe you were joking like "never happened, your sister is telling fibs" because you Posted Image him. Obviously not.


Sorry, I left my sense of humor in my other pants today. :?

#414
Miri1984

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Weiser_Cain wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Then use code.

/lightremark

Or maybe...

/clueless

:)

It isn't a clueless remark as it does apply to a good chunk of women. I have seen it way too often to be persuaded otherwise... Of course the thread has moved on so if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about ignore this post.


Really, I think the problem with your original post is that it came off as incredibly sexist. Yes, some women fall for the wrong guy, but not all women and you implied that we were all idiots when it came down to our choices in men which is simply not true.

You would have been better off saying "There are a lot of bloody idiots in the world, and some of them are women, and some of them are men."

Then it would have been irrelevant to the thread. But not as offensive.

#415
Weiser_Cain

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'Nuanced critique' isn't funny.

#416
Bratt1204

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I don't see him as a little boy at all, just a bit innocent and he actually has some morals. I think he's uber-hot and sexy and he just happens to be a gentleman to boot (which makes him EVEN more desirable). Hats off to whomever (at Bioware) is responsible for his likeness; awesome job. Oh and the writing isn't bad either ; )

#417
Jacks Smirking Revenge

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My only gripe about Alistair is his actions at the Landsmeet, but nobody was really on good behavior at the Landsmeet, so I don't judge him for it. I still think he is a good guy would I want him to be King? I don't know I think Anora is a better ruler than him, but that is a different topic entirely.

#418
maxernst

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Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

My only gripe about Alistair is his actions at the Landsmeet, but nobody was really on good behavior at the Landsmeet, so I don't judge him for it. I still think he is a good guy would I want him to be King? I don't know I think Anora is a better ruler than him, but that is a different topic entirely.


Rulers make bad lovers...you'd better put your kingdom up for sale

--Stevie Nicks, Gold Dust Woman

#419
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Weiser_Cain wrote...

It isn't a clueless remark as it does apply to a good chunk of women. I have seen it way too often to be persuaded otherwise... Of course the thread has moved on so if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about ignore this post.


Apparently me taking you out behind the wood shed didn't learn you a thing, son.

Let me give you another hint: when everyone tells you that your perception of the world is wrong, then it probably is.  If what you've "seen way to often" is douchebags getting the girl then either a) your life experience is limited to a very limited social pocket that you should try to get out of or B) you are delusional and making excuses for your own failures with women.

Your experiences aren't the only ones in the world.  Other things happen outside the sphere of "you".  This is why I replied to your first troll and this is why several people piled on after.  Because you don't understand this.

If you did understand that there is a world of experiences outside your own, then you would grasp the concept that when everyone tells you you are wrong the probability of you being right and the rest of the world being wrong is very, very slim.

Modifié par Hanz54321, 15 juin 2010 - 02:55 .


#420
SOLID_EVEREST

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I would rather ask Solid Snake for help with women, lol.



Alistair has no real manly qualities, and his relationship with a male warden is too freaking wierd. He got lucky he didn't get the sword in the landsmeet... I would think chicks would find that bad**** Loghain way more awesome than that wimp Alistair.

#421
GavrielKay

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Loghain is delusional, power mad and my fem-Wardens can wipe the floor with him in single combat. Not exactly awesome in my book.

#422
Miri1984

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SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I would rather ask Solid Snake for help with women, lol.

Alistair has no real manly qualities, and his relationship with a male warden is too freaking wierd. He got lucky he didn't get the sword in the landsmeet... I would think chicks would find that bad**** Loghain way more awesome than that wimp Alistair.


Hehe. No real manly qualities? Really? Have you SEEN him without his armour on?

Rawr.

And Loghain... meh. Doesn't do it for me. Dark and brooding never did. There's no crime in trying to see the funny side of things. Loghain looks like he hasn't laughed for forty years.

#423
KnightofPhoenix

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SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I would rather ask Solid Snake for help with women, lol.

Alistair has no real manly qualities, and his relationship with a male warden is too freaking wierd. He got lucky he didn't get the sword in the landsmeet... I would think chicks would find that bad**** Loghain way more awesome than that wimp Alistair.


Define "real manly qualities". Because for many women, one being in tune with emotions, showing them and being sincere about them, is a manly quality. Not to mention his gentleman like manners, politeness, brave and his devotion to principles and family.

And I found nothign weird in his relationship with a male Warden. My Canon Warden was not that close to him, but I did make a character that was and I didn't see anything weird abou it. He was a good friend and a pleasant comrade at arms for the most part.
 
As for Loghain. Well some girls do like him. Remember that Loghain, while looks incredibly wel for a 50+ year old, was still old in Origins nd looked like a ghoul, with his pale face and melancholic depressed like state. But many liked him from the Stolen Throne. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 juin 2010 - 05:29 .


#424
Addai

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SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I would rather ask Solid Snake for help with women, lol.

Alistair has no real manly qualities, and his relationship with a male warden is too freaking wierd. He got lucky he didn't get the sword in the landsmeet... I would think chicks would find that bad**** Loghain way more awesome than that wimp Alistair.

Sure, just look at that 1800-page Loghain slobberfest on this page... oh wait...  :whistle:

#425
Weiser_Cain

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Hanz54321 wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

It isn't a clueless remark as it does apply to a good chunk of women. I have seen it way too often to be persuaded otherwise... Of course the thread has moved on so if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about ignore this post.


Apparently me taking you out behind the wood shed didn't learn you a thing, son.
HA! I'd tear you apart!

Let me give you another hint: when everyone tells you that your perception of the world is wrong, then it probably is.  If what you've "seen way to often" is douchebags getting the girl then either a) your life experience is limited to a very limited social pocket that you should try to get out of or B) you are delusional and making excuses for your own failures with women.

Your experiences aren't the only ones in the world.  Other things happen outside the sphere of "you".  This is why I replied to your first troll and this is why several? people piled on after.  Because you don't understand this.

If you did understand that there is a world of experiences outside your own, then you would grasp the concept that when everyone tells you you are wrong the probability of you being right and the rest of the world being wrong is very, very slim.

You don't even know how to make an argument without antagonizing somebody so really you're in no position to teach anything about people.