605 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I would rather ask Solid Snake for help with women, lol.

Alistair has no real manly qualities, and his relationship with a male warden is too freaking wierd. He got lucky he didn't get the sword in the landsmeet... I would think chicks would find that bad**** Loghain way more awesome than that wimp Alistair.

I don't want to repeat myself, but please read my post on page 6 of this thread for an explanation of the errors in your assumptions. Or read KoP's excellent post above.

[Loki330]

Asdara wrote...

Re-reading the Elf gets dumped by Alistair scenario - which brings back all sorts of unhappy memories of my long ago first play that will be cleansed with this current play through I hope - a thought has newly occurred to me.

Alistair could have become king to stop the Blight and then abdicated in favor of love and his promises. I mean, yes duty and yes the need for a King is apparent and justified while the Archdemon is bearing down on us - but after that, maintaing the throne is really done for the (in my opinion) somewhat hollow reason of the Therin Bloodline. Political upheaval sucks, but sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles. It wouldn't do as much damage to the country as darkspawn hordes by half. So... yeah. I can't believe I just realized that.

In some cultures-especially england until fairly recently (in terms of the country's timeline, and I believe Fereldan is based off england)  you couldn't 'just' abdicate. It's actually a relatively new concept in the past 2000 years of rule-or at the very least, one that's ever been implemented as most rulers decide the risk of the old ruler deciding they want to get back in the saddle is too great and send off assassins.

There is a power vacuum that Anora is attempting to fill, but it doesn't matter if she's the child of one of the country's greatest war heroes, it doesn't matter she was actually the de-facto ruler while her husband was still alive; she isn't of the Therin bloodline and in a political system based on inheritance that means she isn't good enough-why do you think Alistair can essentially walk in a go 'Sup imma Therin, follow me plz' and then people decide to? Probably the greatest reason is because he is Maric's (albiet illigetemate) son.

However, his political position is very uneasy-amusingly Logain has the problem pegged perfectly if you recruit him and talk to it. Alastair doesn't have a strong political powerbase-he has his relatives but that's only one family, and their power and influence is limited. Anora was very politically shrewd, constantly playing the nobles off against each other and keeping them too busy screwing each other over to try it on the royalty. Alastair has become king in a very unstable-politically and militarily-moment and coupled with the weak powerbase he can't afford to alienate the nobles. As such, he has to make concessions. Such as a human wife from a noble family.

[asaiasai]

I am not going to win any friends with this reply but in a nut shell, women have no clue what they want, which is why it is thier perogative to change thier minds at a moments notice. The reason they all like Allistair is because he is something YOU as a flesh and blood male will never be, and that is what ever they want when they want it because as a fictional character he is infinatly more flexible in who he is because it is fantasy.



Perfect example is i work at a hospital so the primary sex of the work force is female. I have been here for almost 20 years and for the first 10 i could not get a date out of here. So i went and looked someplace else found a girl from outside the workplace, and got married. From the moment i slipped that 100 dollar piece of gold on my finger i was like Tom Jones at a Vegas show trying to work and having to duck slingshot panties from across the nurses stations. I would come home from work reach into my lab coat pocket and occasionaly there would be a name and a number on a slip of paper in there, and as i do have a sense of humor about it sometimes the names were not all female.



I am now getting a divorce, and the panties have stopped flying around, gone are the names on paper, so the only conclusion i can draw is that women what what they can not have more than anything else and since Allistair is fantasy there you have it.



Asai

[Xandurpein]

asaiasai wrote...

I am not going to win any friends with this reply but in a nut shell, women have no clue what they want, which is why it is thier perogative to change thier minds at a moments notice. The reason they all like Allistair is because he is something YOU as a flesh and blood male will never be, and that is what ever they want when they want it because as a fictional character he is infinatly more flexible in who he is because it is fantasy.

Perfect example is i work at a hospital so the primary sex of the work force is female. I have been here for almost 20 years and for the first 10 i could not get a date out of here. So i went and looked someplace else found a girl from outside the workplace, and got married. From the moment i slipped that 100 dollar piece of gold on my finger i was like Tom Jones at a Vegas show trying to work and having to duck slingshot panties from across the nurses stations. I would come home from work reach into my lab coat pocket and occasionaly there would be a name and a number on a slip of paper in there, and as i do have a sense of humor about it sometimes the names were not all female.

I am now getting a divorce, and the panties have stopped flying around, gone are the names on paper, so the only conclusion i can draw is that women what what they can not have more than anything else and since Allistair is fantasy there you have it.

Asai

If Morrigan's popularity is any indication, I'd say that men are very similar to women in that respect then.

[exorzist]

wow, 18 pages and counting ... y'all are crazy (in a good way)

[Costin_Razvan]

exorzist wrote...

wow, 18 pages and counting ... y'all are crazy (in a good way)

The topic of Alistair is probably the most discussed topic on these forums, next to Loghain...so did you truly expect anything else?

[Asdara]

Loki330 wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Re-reading the Elf gets dumped by Alistair scenario - which brings back all sorts of unhappy memories of my long ago first play that will be cleansed with this current play through I hope - a thought has newly occurred to me.

Alistair could have become king to stop the Blight and then abdicated in favor of love and his promises. I mean, yes duty and yes the need for a King is apparent and justified while the Archdemon is bearing down on us - but after that, maintaing the throne is really done for the (in my opinion) somewhat hollow reason of the Therin Bloodline. Political upheaval sucks, but sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles. It wouldn't do as much damage to the country as darkspawn hordes by half. So... yeah. I can't believe I just realized that.

In some cultures-especially england until fairly recently (in terms of the country's timeline, and I believe Fereldan is based off england)  you couldn't 'just' abdicate. It's actually a relatively new concept in the past 2000 years of rule-or at the very least, one that's ever been implemented as most rulers decide the risk of the old ruler deciding they want to get back in the saddle is too great and send off assassins.

There is a power vacuum that Anora is attempting to fill, but it doesn't matter if she's the child of one of the country's greatest war heroes, it doesn't matter she was actually the de-facto ruler while her husband was still alive; she isn't of the Therin bloodline and in a political system based on inheritance that means she isn't good enough-why do you think Alistair can essentially walk in a go 'Sup imma Therin, follow me plz' and then people decide to? Probably the greatest reason is because he is Maric's (albiet illigetemate) son.

However, his political position is very uneasy-amusingly Logain has the problem pegged perfectly if you recruit him and talk to it. Alastair doesn't have a strong political powerbase-he has his relatives but that's only one family, and their power and influence is limited. Anora was very politically shrewd, constantly playing the nobles off against each other and keeping them too busy screwing each other over to try it on the royalty. Alastair has become king in a very unstable-politically and militarily-moment and coupled with the weak powerbase he can't afford to alienate the nobles. As such, he has to make concessions. Such as a human wife from a noble family.

T'was a thought at the moment and nothing more.

However, even if Alistair had all the noble houses behind him, a mage - Elf or Human - was not going to sit beside him on the throne.  The Chantry would have to lead an Exalted March on Denerim (Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him).  Then Orlais would be up in Ferelden and Loghain would be proved right... swooping is bad.  

On the other hand, the likelihood of Alistair begetting an heir seems pretty slim from his description even with a non-Warden partner so the Therin line might see the end of its days anyway.  I'm sure they'll find a new line of royalty - Fergus Cousland maybe or one of the other high noble houses in line.  Or they'll do the civil war thing until someone emerges.  It happens.

[maxernst]

Abdication was not an easy option, particularly in a situation where there was no heir apparent. The most similar historical situation (aside from Edward VIII who lived in more genteel times when the royalty had no real power) might be Queen Christina who left the Swedish throne after becoming catholic. Abdication was normally done only under extreme duress and to do it to pursue private happiness would be viewed as an extreme dereliction of duty. It would just be OOC for Alistair--it's one thing to abandon duty in rage and betrayal (as he does at Landsmeet), and quite something else to do it after long consideration.

Modifié par maxernst, 15 juin 2010 - 02:47 .

[Xandurpein]

maxernst wrote...

Abdication was not an easy option, particularly in a situation where there was no heir apparent. The most similar historical situation (aside from Edward VIII who lived in more genteel times when the royalty had no real power) might be Queen Christina who left the Swedish throne after becoming catholic. Abdication was normally done only under extreme duress and to do it to pursue private happiness would be viewed as an extreme dereliction of duty. It would just be OOC for Alistair--it's one thing to abandon duty in rage and betrayal (as he does at Landsmeet), and quite something else to do it after long consideration.

I would agree. Alistair is really very concientous about doing his duty. Once he actually is made King he would not step down. IF Alistair is made king, then it also means that the Landsmeet has recognized him as Maric's sole surviving heir (which he really isn't until then). I can't see how Alistair would abandon his duty to pursue happiness at that point.

[Asdara]

See him doing it? Probably not. See some of my characters conspiring with Arl Eamon later to make it happen - that's more likely.

As I said - random thought came to me and I shared it. Speculation is fun.

And, no one says abdication is the only option - we could fake his death too!

(Oh, and by the by, Real Life abdication situations / acceptability and / or any real world customs ... giant dragons and hordes of walking tainted death - getting rid of that should earn you a blank check on ' the normal order of things ' )

Modifié par Asdara, 15 juin 2010 - 03:02 .

[errant_knight]

exorzist wrote...

wow, 18 pages and counting ... y'all are crazy (in a good way)

Too bad so much of it is 'women are stupid and I can't get a date' posts. On the other hand, it does provide a nice example, in counterpoint, of some of the things a lot of women like about Alistair, by being the exact opposite.

[maxernst]

Asdara wrote...

See him doing it? Probably not. See some of my characters conspiring with Arl Eamon later to make it happen - that's more likely.

Eammon?  Not a chance.  Anora would be your best bet.

[Asdara]

Well, as one of the nobles in the tavern said, let the line of Loghain begin with the crown and Anora - she's in the tower she wants the throne and he (if you swing things just so) can end up being the Hero of Ferelden who slew the archdemon. Pretty good bid to the people I'd think.

And do you mean "I can't make a bid because it would look power hungry" Eamon?  Who must know Alistair will be a puppet king no matter what he says to convince you otherwise?  That one?  If we ship him a baby later he'll be happy to sit Regent to the child king no doubt in my mind there.

Modifié par Asdara, 15 juin 2010 - 03:09 .

[Addai]

Asdara wrote...

Well, as one of the nobles in the tavern said, let the line of Loghain begin with the crown and Anora - she's in the tower she wants the throne and he (if you swing things just so) can end up being the Hero of Ferelden who slew the archdemon. Pretty good bid to the people I'd think.

That guy?  What a weasel.  Need to read The Calling to know why his opinion is a little bit... um, biased.

[nos_astra]

Asdara wrote...
Well, as one of the nobles in the tavern said, let the line of Loghain begin with the crown and Anora - she's in the tower she wants the throne and he (if you swing things just so) can end up being the Hero of Ferelden who slew the archdemon. Pretty good bid to the people I'd think.

Or you could simply give the throne to Anora at the Landsmeet.

[Asdara]

I'm just saying that, politically speaking, one Royal line is as good as another. There's no such thing as divinely appointed Kings the Maker smiles on for some mysterious reasons (since he's left us anyway). It's about getting someone, anyone, up there that will be followed by the nobles and not plunge the country back into barbarism. That was the point, and the duty, and all the practical reason behind it.

[errant_knight]

Asdara wrote...

I'm just saying that, politically speaking, one Royal line is as good as another. There's no such thing as divinely appointed Kings the Maker smiles on for some mysterious reasons (since he's left us anyway). It's about getting someone, anyone, up there that will be followed by the nobles and not plunge the country back into barbarism. That was the point, and the duty, and all the practical reason behind it.

That's true in life, but not necessarily in a fantasy game/book/movie. And in this game, a Guardian of the ashes can live for thousands of years, the ashes can heal, the dead rise, and we can see the Black City. Real life arguments can't be taken as fact here.

[Weiser_Cain]

Gemaphrodite wrote...
So, although Alistair is many things, he is not a douchebag.

Ashton Kutcher is a douchebag. Ashton Kutcher would do a good job playing Alistair in a DA movie. Thus Allistair is a ____?

[errant_knight]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Gemaphrodite wrote...
So, although Alistair is many things, he is not a douchebag.

Ashton Kutcher is a douchebag. Ashton Kutcher would do a good job playing Alistair in a DA movie. Thus Allistair is a ____?

Do you completely lack the ability to make a coherent argument for your point of view?

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Gemaphrodite wrote...
So, although Alistair is many things, he is not a douchebag.

Ashton Kutcher is a douchebag. Ashton Kutcher would do a good job playing Alistair in a DA movie. Thus Allistair is a ____?

Do you completely lack the ability to make a coherent argument for your point of view?

Apparently so.

[Weiser_Cain]

errant_knight wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Gemaphrodite wrote...
So, although Alistair is many things, he is not a douchebag.

Ashton Kutcher is a douchebag. Ashton Kutcher would do a good job playing Alistair in a DA movie. Thus Allistair is a ____?

Do you completely lack the ability to make a coherent argument for your point of view?

That's up for you to decide, it makes sense to me.

[Asdara]

errant_knight wrote...

Asdara wrote...

I'm just saying that, politically speaking, one Royal line is as good as another. There's no such thing as divinely appointed Kings the Maker smiles on for some mysterious reasons (since he's left us anyway). It's about getting someone, anyone, up there that will be followed by the nobles and not plunge the country back into barbarism. That was the point, and the duty, and all the practical reason behind it.

That's true in life, but not necessarily in a fantasy game/book/movie. And in this game, a Guardian of the ashes can live for thousands of years, the ashes can heal, the dead rise, and we can see the Black City. Real life arguments can't be taken as fact here.

Fair point.  Of course, that means 'life' based arguments against the idea become equally suspect.  

Like I said though, t'was just a thought.  We all know what Alistair does / doesn't do in every permutation I assume so the whole thing is moot.  Fun to think about, but ultimately moot.  

I just think it is interesting that Alistair's honor isn't as ironclad as people tend to want to believe.  He does, after all, abandon the Warden if they spare Loghain.  He also, despite his promises, puts aside his relationship with a non-Human Warden to fulfill the obligations of a role he neither wanted nor made any formal commitment to (the coronation not having taken place yet) - and he shirks that role to die to the Archdemon if given the opportunity.  

So Alistair doesn't always do what we think his duty and honor should have him do - or he arranges his priorities of what that duty and honor is in a particular way given the situation and mediated by what he wants and doesn't want if given a chance to do so unnoticed.  Rather more complex than it seems at first glance.