605 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

As for when I'm playing my characters, there are a number of things that are appealing about him.  He's funny, snarky, charming and witty.  Whether I'm playing as a lover or friend, he is appealing on all of those levels.  In a relationship with him, he's sweet, awkward and, if you let him take the lead, willing to go after what he wants.  I like that aspect of his personality: that he's fairly laid-back, until he finds something he really wants, and then he's willing to take risks on it.  I know other LIs so that as well, but none of them just kiss my PC without waiting for an okay.

I also love the fact that, like all the LI's, he is flawed.  Perfect people are not interesting, and my two favorite characters (Alistair and Zevran) are simultaneously the most awesome and most flawed.  It's great as a player to see that, and it keeps me engaged throughout mulitple play throughs.

That being said, Alistair can also be incredibly infuriating, and I think at some point everyone has thrown up their hands and yelled at their screens "Goddamnit, Alistair!"  And for some reason, Alistair fangirls love him even more for that. Wander over the gush thread and observe the disturbing high amount of love given to Angry Alistair.  We are bad, bad people, and enjoy tormenting him because he is so hot when he is angry.

I think your post explains very well why women love Alistair, but so many male players misunderstand him and call him a whimp. The classic Alpha male, that men tend to equate with being "manly" is the top dog. The one who dominates those around him. Men are brought up to respect the pecking order and respect the Alpha male. Alistair has no pretentions on being an Alpha male, so by default many men thinks he is "whimpy".

Women, in my experience, tend to be far less impressed by Alpha males, than men. If some women like Alpha Males it's probably more due to the "bragging rights" for catching him, than for how they try to act within the relationship. I think women can feel it's hot when a man stands up for himself and refuse to be pushed around, but that does NOT equate to them liking him trying to push her around.

Men are so much more accustomed to thinking in terms of pecking orders that they fail to realize that Alistair is not a whimp, just because he doesn't try to dominate the woman. As LadyD says, he can be snarky and totally infuriating, i.e. he won't always bend to the players will, but neither will he try to bend her to his will. If Alistair had been a true whimp and just said "yes dear" to everything the PC says, he would never had been as popular as he is.

And everyone who thinks Alistair is just a whimp needs to at least once "harden" Alistair and let him duel Loghain to see how he acts when he becomes King.

Xandurpein, you are consistantly impressive. Just sayin'....  

[Carmen_Willow]

Alistair is popular with many women because he fulfills a basic evolutionary need of human females.  

He is the male who is strong enough (and willing) to fend off the enemy while I (and our offspring) get away from the danger.  At the same time, he is gentle enough to never ever beat me or my offspring to a pulp.  His humor and ability to look honestly at himself are just icing on the basic biological cake.

Women want men who are violent enough to protect them from danger but gentle enough to never, ever turn that violence on the woman or her kids.

You just know from play this game that Alistair would never be a mean  or depressed drunk.  He'd giggle, laugh, get sick and pass out instead. 

That's the appeal. He's the perfect tank, and women of child bearing age need a tank much more than a damage-dealer.

[Herr Uhl]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

You just know from play this game that Alistair would never be a mean  or depressed drunk.  He'd giggle, laugh, get sick and pass out instead. 

Him becoming a depressed drunk is one of the endings.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

You just know from play this game that Alistair would never be a mean  or depressed drunk.  He'd giggle, laugh, get sick and pass out instead. 

Him becoming a depressed drunk is one of the endings.

Irony tickles me.

[Carmen_Willow]

adneate wrote...

Loghain is evil? He might be very mistaken about things but he's not running around Denerim clubbing babies and eating people's faces.

No, he's just selling off a part of his population for gold and ordering sneaky hits on anyone who survived to tell the tale of his desertion at Ostagar.

[Carmen_Willow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

You just know from play this game that Alistair would never be a mean  or depressed drunk.  He'd giggle, laugh, get sick and pass out instead. 

Him becoming a depressed drunk is one of the endings.

Irony tickles me.

Touche!  Well, I have to admit that's true, but only after you break his heart.....

[Addai]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

You just know from play this game that Alistair would never be a mean  or depressed drunk.  He'd giggle, laugh, get sick and pass out instead. 

Him becoming a depressed drunk is one of the endings.

That's when he doesn't get the girl.

[Herr Uhl]

Addai67 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

You just know from play this game that Alistair would never be a mean  or depressed drunk.  He'd giggle, laugh, get sick and pass out instead. 

Him becoming a depressed drunk is one of the endings.

That's when he doesn't get the girl.

So you have in the same league as Oghren?

(not about Felsi about Branka)

[Carmen_Willow]

Gemaphrodite wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

As for when I'm playing my characters, there are a number of things that are appealing about him.  He's funny, snarky, charming and witty.  Whether I'm playing as a lover or friend, he is appealing on all of those levels.  In a relationship with him, he's sweet, awkward and, if you let him take the lead, willing to go after what he wants.  I like that aspect of his personality: that he's fairly laid-back, until he finds something he really wants, and then he's willing to take risks on it.  I know other LIs so that as well, but none of them just kiss my PC without waiting for an okay.

I also love the fact that, like all the LI's, he is flawed.  Perfect people are not interesting, and my two favorite characters (Alistair and Zevran) are simultaneously the most awesome and most flawed.  It's great as a player to see that, and it keeps me engaged throughout mulitple play throughs.

That being said, Alistair can also be incredibly infuriating, and I think at some point everyone has thrown up their hands and yelled at their screens "Goddamnit, Alistair!"  And for some reason, Alistair fangirls love him even more for that. Wander over the gush thread and observe the disturbing high amount of love given to Angry Alistair.  We are bad, bad people, and enjoy tormenting him because he is so hot when he is angry.

I think your post explains very well why women love Alistair, but so many male players misunderstand him and call him a whimp. The classic Alpha male, that men tend to equate with being "manly" is the top dog. The one who dominates those around him. Men are brought up to respect the pecking order and respect the Alpha male. Alistair has no pretentions on being an Alpha male, so by default many men thinks he is "whimpy".

Women, in my experience, tend to be far less impressed by Alpha males, than men. If some women like Alpha Males it's probably more due to the "bragging rights" for catching him, than for how they try to act within the relationship. I think women can feel it's hot when a man stands up for himself and refuse to be pushed around, but that does NOT equate to them liking him trying to push her around.

Men are so much more accustomed to thinking in terms of pecking orders that they fail to realize that Alistair is not a whimp, just because he doesn't try to dominate the woman. As LadyD says, he can be snarky and totally infuriating, i.e. he won't always bend to the players will, but neither will he try to bend her to his will. If Alistair had been a true whimp and just said "yes dear" to everything the PC says, he would never had been as popular as he is.

And everyone who thinks Alistair is just a whimp needs to at least once "harden" Alistair and let him duel Loghain to see how he acts when he becomes King.

Agreed. To both.

Ditto

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Alistair's drunkness.
Well that's part of his appeal. Some (if not many) women like the idea of them "saving" a man and the idea that without them, that man would crumble.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 juin 2010 - 05:11 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Alistair's drunkness.
Well that's part of his appeal. Some (if not many) women like the idea of them "saving" a man and the idea that without them, that man would crumble.

Obviously the writers believe men like the same idea, since Leliana doesn't fare well in a US ending, either.  Morrigan moves on regardless, but we know she's going to figure in further stories so it's an exception to the rule.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Alistair's drunkness.
Well that's part of his appeal. Some (if not many) women like the idea of them "saving" a man and the idea that without them, that man would crumble.

Kind of like men with Morrigan and "teaching" her about love you mean?

[Giggles_Manically]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Alistair is popular with many women because he fulfills a basic evolutionary need of human females.  

He is the male who is strong enough (and willing) to fend off the enemy while I (and our offspring) get away from the danger.  At the same time, he is gentle enough to never ever beat me or my offspring to a pulp.  His humor and ability to look honestly at himself are just icing on the basic biological cake.

Women want men who are violent enough to protect them from danger but gentle enough to never, ever turn that violence on the woman or her kids.

You just know from play this game that Alistair would never be a mean  or depressed drunk.  He'd giggle, laugh, get sick and pass out instead. 

That's the appeal. He's the perfect tank, and women of child bearing age need a tank much more than a damage-dealer.

Darwin approves of this post.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 10 juin 2010 - 05:16 .

[Addai]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

You just know from play this game that Alistair would never be a mean  or depressed drunk.  He'd giggle, laugh, get sick and pass out instead. 

Him becoming a depressed drunk is one of the endings.

That's when he doesn't get the girl.

So you have in the same league as Oghren?

(not about Felsi about Branka)

As I said above, all of the LIs except Morrigan are pretty much devastated if the Warden dies.  I don't think we're told what happens to Zevran if he leaves because the Warden doesn't return his feelings, but I can't imagine the end result being pretty.

Myself, I don't like the idea of the PC being end-all be-all, which is also why I dislike the idea of the Warden as self-contained god of the universe.  But that's how the writers do it, probably because most people do like the idea of their PCs as little gods on whom the fate of mankind and their LIs' happiness depends.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Alistair's drunkness.
Well that's part of his appeal. Some (if not many) women like the idea of them "saving" a man and the idea that without them, that man would crumble.

Kind of like men with Morrigan and "teaching" her about love you mean?

Somewhat. Morrigan doesn't crumble without you, whether you do the DR  or not.
But you get to show her the meaning of love, yea.

It's actually quite interesting. Women enjoy the emotional openness of Alistair and that they don't have to work for it. Men,  at least me, enjoy the emotional closeness of Morrigan and the challenge in making her open up.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 juin 2010 - 05:18 .

[Carmen_Willow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Alistair's drunkness.
Well that's part of his appeal. Some (if not many) women like the idea of them "saving" a man and the idea that without them, that man would crumble.

It wasn't about being without me....don't you realize that sparing Loghain is a fundamental betrayal as far as Alistair is concerned?  Whether you agree with Alistair's thinking or not (which I don't....I'm much more political and hard-headed and would willingly enlist Loghain just so he can die at the end and leave Alistair and me [edit for grammar] alive and kicking) to him you betrayed him in the worst possible way.

Who among us wouldn't react severely when betrayed -- in the worst possible way -- by someone we loved.  Think about it!  Think about what some people do when they feel they've been betrayed. Alistair kills himself (through drink), he doesn't take a sword to you.  It supports my original hypothesis.

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 10 juin 2010 - 05:19 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Alistair's drunkness.
Well that's part of his appeal. Some (if not many) women like the idea of them "saving" a man and the idea that without them, that man would crumble.

Kind of like men with Morrigan and "teaching" her about love you mean?

Somewhat. Morrigan doesn't crumble without you, whether you do the DR  or not.
But you get to show her the meaning of love, yea.

It's actually quite interesting. Women enjoy the emotional openness of Alistair and that they don't have to work for. Men,  at least me, enjoy the emotional closeness of Morrigan and the challenge in making her open up.

While you can like it, I cant avoid metagaming the ending and her romance is ruined for me.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's actually quite interesting. Women enjoy the emotional openness of Alistair and that they don't have to work for it. Men,  at least me, enjoy the emotional closeness of Morrigan and the challenge in making her open up.

The Zevran romance functions similarly.

Alistair is pretty easy, it's true.  To my mind, both he and Leliana really want to fall in love.  Alistair tells you he didn't think it would ever happen, but I interpret this to mean that he was resigned to templar vows and then to a Warden's shortened life.

[Maria13]

Xandurpein wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

As for when I'm playing my characters, there are a number of things that are appealing about him.  He's funny, snarky, charming and witty.  Whether I'm playing as a lover or friend, he is appealing on all of those levels.  In a relationship with him, he's sweet, awkward and, if you let him take the lead, willing to go after what he wants.  I like that aspect of his personality: that he's fairly laid-back, until he finds something he really wants, and then he's willing to take risks on it.  I know other LIs so that as well, but none of them just kiss my PC without waiting for an okay.

I also love the fact that, like all the LI's, he is flawed.  Perfect people are not interesting, and my two favorite characters (Alistair and Zevran) are simultaneously the most awesome and most flawed.  It's great as a player to see that, and it keeps me engaged throughout mulitple play throughs.

That being said, Alistair can also be incredibly infuriating, and I think at some point everyone has thrown up their hands and yelled at their screens "Goddamnit, Alistair!"  And for some reason, Alistair fangirls love him even more for that. Wander over the gush thread and observe the disturbing high amount of love given to Angry Alistair.  We are bad, bad people, and enjoy tormenting him because he is so hot when he is angry.

I think your post explains very well why women love Alistair, but so many male players misunderstand him and call him a whimp. The classic Alpha male, that men tend to equate with being "manly" is the top dog. The one who dominates those around him. Men are brought up to respect the pecking order and respect the Alpha male. Alistair has no pretentions on being an Alpha male, so by default many men thinks he is "whimpy".

Women, in my experience, tend to be far less impressed by Alpha males, than men. If some women like Alpha Males it's probably more due to the "bragging rights" for catching him, than for how they try to act within the relationship. I think women can feel it's hot when a man stands up for himself and refuse to be pushed around, but that does NOT equate to them liking him trying to push her around.

Men are so much more accustomed to thinking in terms of pecking orders that they fail to realize that Alistair is not a whimp, just because he doesn't try to dominate the woman. As LadyD says, he can be snarky and totally infuriating, i.e. he won't always bend to the players will, but neither will he try to bend her to his will. If Alistair had been a true whimp and just said "yes dear" to everything the PC says, he would never had been as popular as he is.

And everyone who thinks Alistair is just a whimp needs to at least once "harden" Alistair and let him duel Loghain to see how he acts when he becomes King.

You've restored some of my faith in guykind.

[Xandurpein]

Maria13 wrote...

You've restored some of my faith in guykind.

A little faith is always nice...

[GavrielKay]

Xandurpein wrote...

Women, in my experience, tend to be far less impressed by Alpha males, than men. If some women like Alpha Males it's probably more due to the "bragging rights" for catching him, than for how they try to act within the relationship. I think women can feel it's hot when a man stands up for himself and refuse to be pushed around, but that does NOT equate to them liking him trying to push her around.

This is so true. 
Some women will, of course, be attracted to the Type A personality for many reasons:  status, ambition, pride etc.  True Alpha males always need to maintain that position and it can get tiring for the partner to be a member of that adoring pack or be replaced by someone who will.  Men who thrive on a position of status and power often don't have energy left over to be a loving generous partner.  I've known men like this who simply can't handle a relationship where their partner is more talented at something or more popular in a ceratin crowd.  It's a lousy feeling to be resented for your abilities just because they outshine some aspect of his.
Many many women prefer to be roughly equal partners in their relationships.  With Alistair he flat out says he feels that you're more competent to lead and he'll back you up.  No anger, no resentment, and he still offers everything he has to you and your whole endeavor.  You can have Alistair's devotion, flaws and all, if you just give the same back to him.  It's really quite a lovely story.

[Giggles_Manically]

Right up until he can leave you at the most important part of course if he dosent get his way.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Right up until he can leave you at the most important part of course if he dosent get his way.

If you get to that point, from his perspective you've left him.  And your senses.

[Xandurpein]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Right up until he can leave you at the most important part of course if he dosent get his way.

But unlike other companons who don't get their way, he doesn't fight you over it, he leaves.

[GavrielKay]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Right up until he can leave you at the most important part of course if he dosent get his way.

If you get to that point, from his perspective you've left him.  And your senses.

Exactly.  I find it a bit harsh how Alistair reacts, but I have to admit that on my first playthrough (when I was really wrapped up in the story) I had nearly the same reaction as Alistair.  There was no way I wanted to let that monster live, let alone join me.  If Alistair couldn't draw the line at this point, after all that happened to him, then I really would think he was wimpy.  Just because you want a guy who's dedicated to you doesn't mean you want him to abandon his deepest values.