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[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Right up until he can leave you at the most important part of course if he dosent get his way.

If you get to that point, from his perspective you've left him.  And your senses.

I think it's also important to know that a main reason Alistair fares so terribly badly if he leaves the PC at the Landsmeet over Loghain's fate is that he really can't forgive himself for doing it. Once he cools down he knows he did something terribly wrong, and that knowledge, in my opinion, is what shatters him and make him a drunk.

[nos_astra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Right up until he can leave you at the most important part of course if he dosent get his way.

He doesn't try to kill you, he doesn't stop you from getting what you want, he'll simply leave you with an army and a replacement you oviously value more than him. That's not the wisest course of action but your character forgave worse things than that.

It's also part of his charm for me. A flawed character who can make bad decisions, so I can shout at the screen and feel sad that things went like this. Plus, the epilogue hints that once he cools down he'll regret what he has done.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 juin 2010 - 08:55 .

[LadyDamodred]

klarabella wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Right up until he can leave you at the most important part of course if he dosent get his way.

He doesn't try to kill you, he doesn't stop you from getting what you want, he'll simply leave you with an army and a replacement you oviously value more than him. That's not the wisest course of action but your character forgave worse things than that.

It's also part of his charm for me. A flawed character who can make bad decisions, so I can't shout at the screen and feel sad that things went like this. Plus, the epilogue hints that once he cools down he'll regret what he has done.

I agree with klara on this, and lord knows how many times I have gone over my feelings in this situation.  Also...

LadyDamodred wrote...
That being said, Alistair can also be incredibly infuriating, and I think at some point everyone has thrown up their hands and yelled at their screens "Goddamnit, Alistair!"

As for the alpha male thing...  It gets very tiring, very quickly.  I can handle it in short doses, but to be around all the time?  No.  I will take an Alistair any day over an alpha male.

[Giggles_Manically]

Zevran wouldnt classify as an Alpha Male would he? Sten does however I believe.

[LadyDamodred]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Zevran wouldnt classify as an Alpha Male would he? Sten does however I believe.

None of them do, really.  At least, I wouldn't classify Sten as an alpha male.  He is content to follow up until a point, and if/when he objects, it's easy to get him to fall back in line and you get approval for beating his ass.  So no, not alpha male in my book.

[Herr Uhl]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Zevran wouldnt classify as an Alpha Male would he? Sten does however I believe.

That depends. He will accept orders from a superior, but if he doesn't feel that he has one he'd try to take control.

He was a platoon leader after all.

[Xandurpein]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I think Sten is Alpha by Xand's definition. Look at how establishes himself as superior to all the other party members earlier in the game in their conversations. He questions Lelianna being a female fighter, belittles her about staying in the Chantry for free. Later he gets to liking her. He challenges Morrigan as well, then she comes on to him, then he eventually makes her look the fool with his armor and something to bite down on comments. Alistair asks Sten if he ever talks and Sten shuts Alistair right down by insulting him with, "Shall I make polite conversation about the weather while I'm cleaving peoples' heads off?"

Sten could be alpha - at least at first. Eventually he gets to like some of the party members - especially Lelianna.

Sten could be said to show typical male alpha behaviour. At first he is very dominating and tries to assert his authority, then he calms down, because the pecking order is established.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 juin 2010 - 09:12 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Or because I gave him a really good concussion in Haven.

[Xandurpein]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Or because I gave him a really good concussion in Haven.

LOL. There is nothing more alpha male behaviour than establishing the pecking order with a few blows...

[frostajulie]

Addai67 wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

I can't explain it I like AL but Zev is far more mature and emotionally stable even if he is an assassin. I like him better. Ali is a 16 yr olds 1st love and his romance has all the depth of such a love Zev on the other hand is the man to end up with if you want a love built on more than lovesick smiles

I couldn't let this go.  I love the Zevran romance, too, and I agree that the Alistair romance is a "first romance."  That much is obvious.  I do very strenuously disagree that that makes it shallow, immature, or not lasting.  Perhaps I'm biased because I know people from monastic settings, and their celibacy does not equal immaturity.  On the contrary, they can develop an even greater respect for the opposite sex than most young men because they value self-control and do not look at women only as sexual objects.

I also know people who married their high school sweethearts, and far from their relationships being shallow or unenduring, it is like no other person in the world exists in that way for them.  For one couple I know, there is a quality to their marriage that many couples would envy.  It's hard to describe, but it almost is like they were made for each other.  They work together, even, and yet are best friends.  They're the ones I think of when I picture my Alistair-romanced PCs years down the road.

I think you misunderstand me.  A first romance when you are 16 is not always shallow.  I too know people who married their first love and it worked out wonderfully, my grandma included.  Ali's romance is shallow similar to a 1st romance when you are 16.  You know, the typical one most people experience and then outgrow and move on.

It is shallow and immature because Alistair as sexy awesome as he is never loves the PC he loves the idea of who he thinks she is, and then only long enough to shag her and then publicly dump her if she is not a noble human.  I would argue that any man who could do that to his woman did not love her and never did love her regardless of whether or not he was a product of his times but ESPECIALLY not Alistair.  He always goes on and on about honor this and duty that and be good, do right, then his first act as nearly crowned king is to dump you.

Alistair is the guy that like likes you but he doesn't love you. His easy and casual desertation on the eve of the end of the world, his bigotry toward nonhuman love interests and his snarky attitude when you ask about the future and that -10 disaproval hit for bringing it up prove that he is not emotionally ready for a committed relationship, very similar to a typical 1st romance expereienced by most 16 year olds. My Pc's always give it up to ALi because I don't want his 1st time to be with Morrigan and I really cannot resist starting the romance with him.  EVER.  But after the what about the future convo my characters drop him and they become best friends.

A first romance can grow to be forever but this isn't typical.  Most 1st romances are shallow and fade when you get to know the other person.  My first love was so deep and true right up until I saw the boy eat icecream.  WITH HIS MOUTH OPEN:sick: It was over right there and I couldn't get away fast enough.  My story is nothing out of the ordinary, it happens to lots of people.  This was my first love.  It was so full of warm feelings and dreamy sighs and high hopes this was the first guy to ever givve me flowers.  I loved being in love with him.  But open mawed masticated neopolitan ice cream killed that love.

If it had been true I would have looked past the icecream and taught that boy to chew with his mouth closed.  If Ali had ever loved any of my characers he would have stood against the landsmeet for her and when they rejected him as king gone off with her.  But he didn't because the opinions of strangers and her race meant more to hm than the love he supposedly felt for her.

If he had really loved her he would have returned the night of the battle and warded her from harm because in spite of it all it was the end of the world if they lost and he did supposedly love her.

If he had truly loved her he would have entertained an idea of the future with her especially since he is such a fanciful Alistair and does tend to see the world through rose tinted glasses.

If he had truly loved her he would have come to her funeral and wept on her grave and asked for forgiveness.

But he didn't.  He was infatuated with the warden.  But you can't call it love.


He is not only willing to publicly humiliate her.  He is quite willing to walk away and leave her to die.
How can you call that love?  It is shallow and immature.  Very sweet and intoxicating.  But unable to hold up over time.  But I understand that other women see it differently.

[Miri1984]

Eh? Walk away and leave her to die? He sacrifices himself for the PC even if he broke up with her. And hardened Alistair doesn't dump the PC if the PC makes him realise that he doesn't have to. He's just so used to having to take the road that doesn't make him happy that he automatically assumes that doing the right thing also means being miserable. I don't think that's proof he doesn't love her.



He can't marry the PC if they're not a human noble because the landsmeet will reject him for King - not because he doesn't love her. YES I know that it's hypocritical that he marries the noble but it doesn't mean he doesn't love the non-human characters.



He's flawed, yes, and that's a lot of his appeal - he doesn't return the night before the battle because he is ashamed of walking out of the landsmeet and thinks the PC will (probably rightly) tell him to b*gger off. He becomes a drunk because he knows what he did is wrong and can't live with himself. But again, it doesn't mean he doesn't love the PC.



Being in love doesn't automatically make you perfect - some of the stupidest things in the world can be done to people by people who love them.

[frostajulie]

Miri1984 wrote...

Eh? Walk away and leave her to die?

Yep after she chooses Loghain over his revenge he leaves her on the eve of battle with thefate of the nation in balance and hello an army of darkspawn between her and the dragon and oh yeah a dragon.  That is pretty much leaving her to die since it is so obvious he doesn't trust Loghain to have her back.

Miri1984 wrote... He can't marry the PC if they're not a human noble because the landsmeet will reject him for King - not because he doesn't love her. YES I know that it's hypocritical that he marries the noble but it doesn't mean he doesn't love the non-human characters.

1. Yes it does.  He like likes my character but he doesn't love her.
2. He doesn't want to be king anyway right?  If he ever wanted to make a stand this was the time to do it.  What nobler reason could there be to stand against the world if not for love! (This very attitude is why initially Alistair held such appeal).

Miri1984 wrote...

He's flawed, yes, and that's a lot of his appeal - he doesn't return the night before the battle because he is ashamed of walking out of the landsmeet and thinks the PC will (probably rightly) tell him to b*gger off. He becomes a drunk because he knows what he did is wrong and can't live with himself. But again, it doesn't mean he doesn't love the PC.

So Alistair, the brave Alistair I fought beside through countless campaigns and multiple PC lives the awesome Alistair I know and love wouldn't come back the night of the battle because he was embarassed?  Instead he would rather let his supposed love wade through a sea of darkspawn with LOGHAIN at her back and face down A DRAGON not because he is immature and shallow but because he is embarassed and worried she would tell him to bug off:blink:.  Maybe you are right that doesn't mean he doesn't love the PC.  That just means that he is incredibly stupid.

Miri1984 wrote...

Being in love doesn't automatically make you perfect - some of the stupidest things in the world can be done to people by people who love them.

 

Ain't that the truth. Not to cry like a whiny little wiener but my dad that I hero worshipped for kmost of my life in a fit of rage slung me into the bathroom door and told me he never wanted me and that he would end me if I wanted him to.  He doesn't remember doing or saying that and I know he didn't mean it but the pain is still there.  My entire life revolves around that moment and it has affected my view of every man I have ever thought of being in a relationship with.  No one can hurt you worse than someone who loves you and who you love back.

I love that Alistair is flawed but over the course of several playthroughs with multiple characters it is not just that he is flawed that makes his romance so weak.  1 or 2 of these huge awfuls in context is understandable but taken collectlively as a whole you got to realize his feelings are weak with no depth.  That or we just have very different definitions of what real love is.  I can live with that.


I never expected Al to be perfect but I never thought he would abandon my PC.  Break up with her, sure, I did afterall spare Loghain Stop travelling with the group ok.  But he just turned his love off like a faucet one second there and the next second gone.  He didn't help in the final battle.  He didn't come to my pc's funeral.  He never cared beyond infatuation.

[Addai]

frostajulie wrote...

Alistair is the guy that like likes you but he doesn't love you. His easy and casual desertation on the eve of the end of the world, his bigotry toward nonhuman love interests and his snarky attitude when you ask about the future and that -10 disaproval hit for bringing it up prove that he is not emotionally ready for a committed relationship, very similar to a typical 1st romance expereienced by most 16 year olds.

Wow where to begin.  How about with the fact that his "easy and casual desertion" follows the most wrenching public betrayal he's ever experienced and basically ruins his life.

Let's move on to the fact that I generally romance him with elves, and he's never once dumped one of them publicly or otherwise.  One of my favorite dialogues is the "where do you see this going" after the Landsmeet and his lines "I'll tell you one thing, I don't intend to let you get away if that is what you're thinking.  I'll make it work, king or no."  What he does express is concern that you might feel it's unfair to be mistress and see him have to take a wife.  Very bigoted of him!

Blaming Alistair for your game choices and for the way the world works is a bit much.  Is he supposed to make your elf PC queen and see himself deposed before he even ascends the throne?  Is it the loving thing to do for a PC to expect that of him, or not to understand the position he is put in when trying to be both a good king and yet be true to his lover?

But I think we simply see this so differently because our game experiences have been very different.  All evidence points to Alistair remaining faithful and in love with his Warden lover, the same as all the other LIs, whether it is a "first love" or not.  The ironic thing in your comparison to Zevran is that the Warden is Zevran's "first love," too.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 juin 2010 - 10:48 .

[pudi0072000]

Alistair dumps a non noble because he doesn’t want to humiliate her by keeping her as his mistress. He doesn’t think it’s fair to the PC or his wife to have an affair because he has a very strong sense of morality, and sneaking around like that goes again what he believes. It has nothing to do with not loving you; if anything, in his mind, he’s trying to save your good
name by ending the relationship. It breaks his heart to do it, and if he had his way, he’d have stayed a Grey Warden (even hardened, he says he’d prefer that, but he understands that someone needs to take the blight seriously), and continued the relationship. You forced his hand by crowning him, and in some circumstances, he can consider it a sort of betrayal,  since you, like everyone else, choose to disregard what he wanted and made an important life decision for him. Yes, it was stupid and cold to break up in front of the entire group, but sometimes people don’t think clearly when they’re emotional. Did he intend to humiliate you? I don’t think so; he has a lot of ‘foot-in mouth’ moments where he should’ve taken more time to think before saying something, and I’m inclined to think this was one of those times. Of course, you could see it as intentional, but me, I just don’t think it was.

 
And if you choose to allow Loghain to join the Grey Wardens, Alistair sees it as the ultimate betrayal, especially if you were in love. The woman that loves him does not side with the enemy – the man that was responsible for Duncan and the other Warden’s deaths – and so when you do, it’s a huge slap in the face to him. He doesn’t love you at that point because you’re clearly not the person he thought you were. That and you humiliate him in front of the entire Landsmeet if you refuse to make him King. (I don’t want to make this Alistair v. Loghain; I’m just trying to look at this all from Alistair’s POV.) David Gaider says that Alistair comes to deeply regret not returning to fight, but at the time he was too hurt to think things through clearly.

If you don’t betray Alistair or make him King, he’ll choose to keep traveling with you, for “as long as you’ll have him” and if you make the US, he gives a heartfelt speech about how he though you would be together forever. I think he says that even if he dumps you, but you still remain on good terms, (I’ve only had that ending once, so I don’t remember exactly how the approval thing worked).


Do you mean that he loves the idea of you, as in The Grey Warden? I don’t think that’s true either. If he doesn’t like the way you handle things, he’ll tell you and you’ll get approval hits, so no romance. Alistair likes people that live up to his idea of ‘good’. So while in his mind, Grey Wardens should strive to do good, that isn’t enough for him to fall in love. You – the PC – has to be a genuinely good person for him to be interested. Maybe it won’t last, maybe it is just a first love thing, but that’s up to your interpretation. They could go on to be soul mates, like one dialogue ending for Awakening suggests, or you can decide it’s not working and go your separate ways.


My memory is a little fuzzy in regards to the -10 disapproval when you try to discuss the future, so I’m not going to get into
that. I’ll have to load up an old save to see what the exact dialogue is.


And by now I’m sure there are a dozen other similar responses, but oh well. I wanted to get my 2 cents in.

Modifié par pudi0072000, 10 juin 2010 - 11:03 .

[Miri1984]

Also, despite all our romantic hearts - love ISN'T the most important thing in the game - ending the blight is, and Alistair says it several times during the romance - "we have the whole blight to deal with first" "there will never be a perfect time" etc, etc. He takes his duty as a grey warden seriously, and it's the same with his duty to the crown.



AND YES... all the Loghain supporters who groan about his desertion at the landsmeet are RIGHT to a certain extent - he abandons you at a crucial point, but as Addai points out that is after you do the one thing that will break him. It's not mature or intelligent or well thought out, but it's coming entirely from hurt and not from anywhere else.

[nos_astra]

frostajulie, it really sounds like you expect your PC to be worshipped and loved for her mere existence. If that's what you want you're in for some surprises. I think Alistair is the most realistic romance option. To make it work, you have to invest a bit more than simply being female, breathing and telling him he's handsome, just like in reality. You are rewarded with a long-term relationship if your PC is Alistair's true love but you have to prove yourself "worthy". ;-)

Modifié par klarabella, 10 juin 2010 - 11:02 .

[Finiffa]

*groan* This is heading to the Loghain vs Alistair direction again....

[Miri1984]

Yup, I think I shall bow out now .

[Addai]

Miri1984 wrote...

AND YES... all the Loghain supporters who groan about his desertion at the landsmeet are RIGHT to a certain extent - he abandons you at a crucial point, but as Addai points out that is after you do the one thing that will break him. It's not mature or intelligent or well thought out, but it's coming entirely from hurt and not from anywhere else.

This is no different than the breaking points for the other LIs, as well, except in that Alistair is breaking faith with the Grey Wardens in addition.  Leliana will physically attack a romanced PC for defiling the Ashes, and Zevran will leave the Warden to his or her fate if he believes you don't return his feelings in kind.  You can choose to view these decisions cynically, as frostajulie is doing, and say that the LIs are selfish, don't care if the Warden dies, and doesn't even send flowers to the funeral.  Or you can see it as the LI believing their lover was not the person they thought they were, or in Zevran's case not being able to live in a casual romance.  And let's not even get into Morrigan.  LOL

[frostajulie]

I certainly don't expect Ali to worship my PC's. But real love is stronger than biggotry and it is stronger than society's expectations. It is stronger than hate. It is stronger than vengeance. It is stronger than duty. And this does not mean those things may not be important and you can't have those things too but the crux is love is stronger. And Alistairs love is NOT.



My PC's never wanted Ali to worship them. They did expect he would love them more than he hated Loghain.



This is why it is so hard for me to see any romantic appeal from a female perspective for Alistair. I like the guy but hes a good friend and a good lay. He has no clue about love. But again my opinion is certainly skewed by how I play and my own personal values as Addai67 pointed out and this is a very true statement for myself. I value love above everything else. From my perspective Alistair does not. Love should conquer all and if it doesn't its not real. Again personal Skew.



Addai 67 you are so insightful I never considered that my pc was Zev's first love I'm going to have to think about that, but with Zev you get a vetted individual who would probably do the opposite of Alistair in all my Alistair was awful moments.



And if I wanted my character to be worshipped why oh why do they always adore Zevran? That pointy eared turd won't kiss in public, gets bent out of shape over a casual question about love, never says I love you though I might possibly be going to die (Not really I always let someone else die anymore) And he thinks a earring from his first mark is a romantic gift. Eww! But my Pc's always adore him. He likes to kill people and wants to continue being an assassin hows that for imperfect. There is bound to be discontent especially since many of my characters are goody too shoes but Zev will follow you to the dark city itself and my PC's never doubt it. Zev will always guard my pc against Loghains possible betrayal. Alistair just takes off to get drunk.



I think in the end We just have to agree to disagree. Maybe I do see Alistair far differently than most female players but I see the appeal of a him as a friend, even a friend with benefits his voice really is sexy as heck, just not as a love interest. Alistair is a stepping stone to Zevran his love and subsequent breakup is a mildly entertaining diversion until I finish Redcliffe.

[frostajulie]

Addai67 wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

AND YES... all the Loghain supporters who groan about his desertion at the landsmeet are RIGHT to a certain extent - he abandons you at a crucial point, but as Addai points out that is after you do the one thing that will break him. It's not mature or intelligent or well thought out, but it's coming entirely from hurt and not from anywhere else.

This is no different than the breaking points for the other LIs, as well, except in that Alistair is breaking faith with the Grey Wardens in addition.  Leliana will physically attack a romanced PC for defiling the Ashes, and Zevran will leave the Warden to his or her fate if he believes you don't return his feelings in kind.  You can choose to view these decisions cynically, as frostajulie is doing, and say that the LIs are selfish, don't care if the Warden dies, and doesn't even send flowers to the funeral.  Or you can see it as the LI believing their lover was not the person they thought they were, or in Zevran's case not being able to live in a casual romance.  And let's not even get into Morrigan.  LOL

Oh ouch!  I didn't think I was being cynical.  I think of it more as I hold Alistair to a higher standard because lets face it he is the most noble (and I don't mean rank) character in the party. I always expected to be stabbed in the back by everyone else but not Alistair and especially not when he was my love interest.  Of course if he had not then my first game would not have been nearly as memorable.

[pudi0072000]

frostajulie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

AND YES... all the Loghain supporters who groan about his desertion at the landsmeet are RIGHT to a certain extent - he abandons you at a crucial point, but as Addai points out that is after you do the one thing that will break him. It's not mature or intelligent or well thought out, but it's coming entirely from hurt and not from anywhere else.

This is no different than the breaking points for the other LIs, as well, except in that Alistair is breaking faith with the Grey Wardens in addition.  Leliana will physically attack a romanced PC for defiling the Ashes, and Zevran will leave the Warden to his or her fate if he believes you don't return his feelings in kind.  You can choose to view these decisions cynically, as frostajulie is doing, and say that the LIs are selfish, don't care if the Warden dies, and doesn't even send flowers to the funeral.  Or you can see it as the LI believing their lover was not the person they thought they were, or in Zevran's case not being able to live in a casual romance.  And let's not even get into Morrigan.  LOL

Oh ouch!  I didn't think I was being cynical.  I think of it more as I hold Alistair to a higher standard because lets face it he is the most noble (and I don't mean rank) character in the party. I always expected to be stabbed in the back by everyone else but not Alistair and especially not when he was my love interest.  Of course if he had not then my first game would not have been nearly as memorable.

Double standard much? You stabbed him in the back first, of course he's not going to be 'twu lub' with you after that. Treat him right and he'll be yours forever, same as all the other LI's.