242 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

I think Bioware presents Batarians like Balkan nationalists.



I would take that as an insult( since I'm nationalist myself but I'm not anti-anyone) but this is just my theory so I can't go in rage. :-P

[didymos1120]

Mesina2 wrote...

I think Bioware presents Batarians like Balkan nationalists.

I would take that as an insult( since I'm nationalist myself but I'm not anti-anyone) but this is just my theory so I can't go in rage. :-P

Why specifically Balkan nationalists?  If anything, the closest parallel would be Southern secessionists before the US Civil War, what with the whole "Slavery is essential to the Batarian way of life" thing.  Then again, you could just as easily say they're based on India, because mainstream Batarian society (as opposed to the criminals and mercs we actually deal with in the games) is very caste-conscious and stratified.  Their government is also extremely totalitarian and tightly controls what its citizens are allowed to know, so maybe they're Space Soviets.   But really, the fact is, the Batarians are not meant to be taken as some simple allegory of a real life group.  What they have are various traits in common with real world nations and cultures, just like every other alien race we've seen.

[CroGamer002]

didymos1120 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

I think Bioware presents Batarians like Balkan nationalists.

I would take that as an insult( since I'm nationalist myself but I'm not anti-anyone) but this is just my theory so I can't go in rage. :-P

Why specifically Balkan nationalists?  If anything, the closest parallel would be Southern secessionists before the US Civil War, what with the whole "Slavery is essential to the Batarian way of life" thing.  Then again, you could just as easily say they're based on India, because mainstream Batarian society (as opposed to the criminals and mercs we actually deal with in the games) is very caste-conscious and stratified.  Their government is also extremely totalitarian and tightly controls what its citizens are allowed to know, so maybe they're Space Soviets.   But really, the fact is, the Batarians are not meant to be taken as some simple allegory of a real life group.  What they have are various traits in common with real world nations and cultures, just like every other alien race we've seen.

Well I was just speculating.

[megatron999]

Basically the Batarians are bitter and resentful due to them attacking humanity without warning and then getting there heads kicked in.



So like a wounded bully whose bitten of more than they can chew they slink away trading insults and occasional terror attacks.



I hope in ME3 we get to beat them senseless and conquer there homeworld. Then we can liberate all the slaves and introduce democracy/human rights.

[Foolsfolly]

megatron999 wrote...

Basically the Batarians are bitter and resentful due to them attacking humanity without warning and then getting there heads kicked in.

So like a wounded bully whose bitten of more than they can chew they slink away trading insults and occasional terror attacks.

I hope in ME3 we get to beat them senseless and conquer there homeworld. Then we can liberate all the slaves and introduce democracy/human rights.

Yes, I too would like a strong parallel to the current war in the middle east in my entertainment...oh wait no I don't!

[didymos1120]

megatron999 wrote...

Basically the Batarians are bitter and resentful due to them attacking humanity without warning and then getting there heads kicked in.

If you're referring to Elysium, that wasn't just the Batarians.  Remember Elanos Haliat?

[Clone 071]

@GreenDragon

Not only do you have to stake a counterclaim to my last post, but I am presenting you with another challenge: I want you to justify why the following Batarians are intolerable. If you fail to provide proper justification and hide behind something else, then you will forfeit this discussion between the two of us.

Justify why the following Batarians are intolerable:
1. Marsh, the Omega Shopkeep
2. Batarian plague victim in the Slums
3. The Batarians holding David hostage

I don't want to hear "prejudice" as an excuse because members of other races are prejudiced against humans. Might as well hate them too if you state that prejudice is an excuse.

And if any member has a Batarian I might have missed, feel free to add on.

Modifié par Clone 071, 25 juin 2010 - 04:18 .

[Christmas Ape]

Clone 071 wrote to someone else...

If you fail to provide proper justicification and hide behind something else, then you will forfeit this discussion between the two of us.

Oh, my, you are just adorable!

[GreenDragon37]

Clone 071 wrote...

@GreenDragon

Not only do you have to stake a counterclaim to my last post, but I am presenting you with another challenge: I want you to justify why the following Batarians are intolerable. If you fail to provide proper justification and hide behind something else, then you will forfeit this discussion between the two of us.

Justify why the following Batarians are intolerable:
1. Marsh, the Omega Shopkeep
2. Batarian plague victim in the Slums
3. The Batarians holding David hostage

I don't want to hear "prejudice" as an excuse because members of other races are prejudiced against humans. Might as well hate them too if you state that prejudice is an excuse.

And if any member has a Batarian I might have missed, feel free to add on.

1. Marsh. Well, he just wants money. We don't know his motives, but again, he just wants my damn money. Who knows what he will do with it? It is a possiblity he is a criminal.

2. The Batarian Victim came off as a racist ass. Accusing you and Humanity for spreading the plague, when you didn't. If you were in his position, he probably wouldn't have offered the same kind of treatment that I did. I actually healed him. He probably would have ignored you or lauged and spat on you and went along about his buisiness. Didn't think I'd feel "bad" for a Batarian.

3. The Batarians holding David hostage is a simple one. They took him HOSTAGE! They blamed him for spreading the plague, when in fact, he was only there to help them. Ungrateful douchebags. And even when I let them go i they let David go(yes, I honor my promises), they still give me lip. "Huh, Human nobility. Didn't think such a thing existed." No "thanks you for sparing our lives", just a damn insult. Again, ungrateful douchebags.

Also, I shouldn't hate the other races because I have seen the good in their species as well as the bad. The Batarians, eh, I've just seen the doucheness and the bad.

Oh, and by the way, if the Batarian Government doesn't even try to stop these terrorists. Hell, they may even be funding them. Why didn't they condemn that Batarian Ambassador, Jath'Amon, when he attacked the Citadel? Why didn't they condemn Balak? How do you know they're NOT funding the terrorists? Again, you don't know. Heck, I don't know. But I am working on what has happened and what is happening during the events of ME2. They are still commiting terrorist acts. Their government dosen't condemn these acts. They are douchebags AND sinners.

[SpectreSeven]

The only Batarian that struck me as alright was Salkie. The rest just fit the stereotype

[skl]

And I actually like the Batarians. I agree that most of them are extremely prejudiced against humans - well I would be too, in their place. So I enjoyed very much at least giving them something to think about by helping them where possible.

[didymos1120]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

1. Marsh. Well, he just wants money. We don't know his motives, but again, he just wants my damn money. Who knows what he will do with it? It is a possiblity he is a criminal.

And yet, he'll give you a discount just for asking nice.  Also: he runs a store, dude.  Of course he wants your damn money.  As for what he'll do with it....WTF?  What do you do with yours?  How can I be sure you're not a criminal?

2. The Batarian Victim came off as a racist ass. Accusing you and Humanity for spreading the plague, when you didn't. If you were in his position, he probably wouldn't have offered the same kind of treatment that I did. I actually healed him. He probably would have ignored you or lauged and spat on you and went along about his buisiness. Didn't think I'd feel "bad" for a Batarian.

Well, one, guy gets some slack seeing as he was about to f*cking die at the time.  Two, talk to him in Mordin's clinic afterwards: he's very grateful, regrets misjudging you simply because you were human, and has obviously had his cozy belief system upended by Shep. 

3. The Batarians holding David hostage is a simple one. They took him HOSTAGE! They blamed him for spreading the plague, when in fact, he was only there to help them. Ungrateful douchebags. And even when I let them go i they let David go(yes, I honor my promises), they still give me lip. "Huh, Human nobility. Didn't think such a thing existed." No "thanks you for sparing our lives", just a damn insult. Again, ungrateful douchebags.

And they were supposed to trust David why?  Some guy from the only unaffected species (besides Vorcha,  who are barely articulate idiots, even if they do know Gavorn's tricks) shows up with vials and needles and stuff, during a plague that is killing your species, and you're honestly going to trust him instantly when he claims to be "only there to help"?  Please.  Were they in the wrong?  Yes.  Is their suspicion understandable?  Hell yeah it is.  They also backed down, and voluntarily disarmed.  I.e., they still gave the human a chance.  And, if you go the paragon route, you can actually reason with them instead of just threatening to waste 'em all. Is one of them still kind of a jerk afterwards? Well, yeah, but try actually thinking about what he said: he didn't think such a thing as human nobility existed.  Past tense, dude.  Now, he thinks it does exist.  You changed his perception of humans.  Good job!  Too bad you didn't notice.

Now, I fully expect you to ignore all this, since you're apparently immune to logic, but what the hell. I had some time.

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 juin 2010 - 12:10 .

[Zaxares]

I can't say that I have a terribly high opinion of batarians given my experiences with them, but I'm wise enough to know that you can't judge an entire species based on a few individuals. The Batarian Hegemony is like a rogue state; it's ruthless, cruel, and uses state-sponsored terrorism to achieve its goals while publicly disavowing any knowledge or connection to them. They're really not unlike some rogue states on Earth today.

What do the ordinary batarians think about all of this? We don't know, but based on my interactions with them in ME2, I suspect that a lot of them are just trying to go about their daily business, and don't think too much about politics or stuff that's simply out of their hands. Marsh, the storekeeper on Omega, is just like any other merchant in the galaxy; he wants your money, and if he has to give a small discount to make a sale, he'll do it. Salkie, Cathka and Tarak are all just mercenaries doing their job. They're ruthless about it, but they're MERCENARIES. ALL mercenaries are ruthless; they have to be to be good at their job. Look at Zaeed, for instance!

The most telling example was the batarian plague victim in Mordin's recruitment mission. Yes, he hates humans, but he's likely bought into the propaganda that's been blasted at him 24/7 by the Hegemony, and has never thought to question it. When confronted by actual experience that not all humans are like what he's been told about, he changes his tune and is genuinely regretful of what he said to you when you first met.

I don't deny that batarians probably have a greater propensity to brutality or slavery than humans, but that's a result of growing up in a culture which actively embraced such things as normal ways of life. It's like the krogan believing that violence is the proper way to solve all disputes, because that's how they were raised from birth to believe.

Modifié par Zaxares, 26 juin 2010 - 02:39 .

[IccaRa]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

1. Marsh. Well, he just wants money. We don't know his motives, but again, he just wants my damn money. Who knows what he will do with it? It is a possiblity he is a criminal.

He's a merchant. Of course he wants your money. That's sort of the purpose of making a living. Every other shopkeep, bartender and kiosk operator in the game also wants your money. I guess this means Marab the Salarian and Matriarch Aethyta are also douchebags and maybe criminals.

Don't you want money? Isn't that why you get a job? Maybe I shouldn't go to the grocery store either. Those clerks just want my money. Who knows what they'll do with it.

2. The Batarian Victim came off as a racist ass. Accusing you and Humanity for spreading the plague, when you didn't. If you were in his position, he probably wouldn't have offered the same kind of treatment that I did. I actually healed him. He probably would have ignored you or lauged and spat on you and went along about his buisiness. Didn't think I'd feel "bad" for a Batarian.

So you become the very thing you hate in order to prove your point: a racist ass? Doesn't that seem a little hypocritical to you? He thought you were going to kill and rob him... which you actually have an option of doing.

The OP also said to leave prejudice out of your answer. He could have just as easily been a turian.

3. The Batarians holding David hostage is a simple one. They took him HOSTAGE! They blamed him for spreading the plague, when in fact, he was only there to help them. Ungrateful douchebags. And even when I let them go i they let David go(yes, I honor my promises), they still give me lip. "Huh, Human nobility. Didn't think such a thing existed." No "thanks you for sparing our lives", just a damn insult. Again, ungrateful douchebags.

They don't have any reason to believe anything he says and every reason to believe otherwise, until Shepard points out the discrepencies.

Sure, the passing remark is a zinger, but it's also something of a compliment.

Oh, and by the way, if the Batarian Government doesn't even try to stop these terrorists. Hell, they may even be funding them. Why didn't they condemn that Batarian Ambassador, Jath'Amon, when he attacked the Citadel? Why didn't they condemn Balak? How do you know they're NOT funding the terrorists? Again, you don't know. Heck, I don't know. But I am working on what has happened and what is happening during the events of ME2. They are still commiting terrorist acts. Their government dosen't condemn these acts. They are douchebags AND sinners.

So the government and terrorists = everyone now?

[Commander Sheperd12]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

yes

Ah, that is a good question. Probably, yes. Even before you met Wrex, if you go by that Krogan statue on the Citadel you are told how the Krogan were uplifted by the Salarians early and fought in a war which they had no buisiness being a part of. Mordin tells you this as well. I thought it was wrong then, and I still think that now.

But not meeting Wrex would have probably challenged my perceptions of them. It's just a good thing that Wrex was in ME 1, then.

While it is true that I probably wouldn't care for the Krogans in ME 1, until I hear about the Genophage, which I understand the purposem but also see the wrong action, There are still things in ME 2 that would heavily affect my choice on the Krogans. Truthfully, Grunt really changed what I believed the Krogan were, something done before only by Wrex, but that one Krogan Wrex slams his head into (On Tuchanka) really pissed me off. Also, the Rite of passage is something like the Pilgramige of the Quarians, but different because the Quarians aren't putting lives on the line, of course, Krogan are supposed to be al mighty, but a Threser Maw? I mean, all you really have to do is survive, but if it gets you a bigger picture on the minds of the Krogan, plus with Sheperd, why not go for it. I've actually seen people that don't fight the Threser Maw. But, this conversation in about the Batarians, which, truthfully, I can never say that I trusted them. Sure, maybe the slavers and pirates and terrorists and criminals that all seen Batarians are, I still judge em, for one reason. Almost every single one that you see, except for 1 or 2, are evil, so who's to say. If for every 500, there are 10 good ones, for 1 million, there's only 20 thousand good ones. Go to 1 billion, there's only 20 million good ones. For the probably not high 10 billion Batarians, there are only 200 Million good ones. I think that's a good way to judge it, cause the possibility is, you're gonna find a bad one.

[Commander Sheperd12]

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...

[quote]GreenDragon37 wrote...


And they were supposed to trust David why?  Some guy from the only unaffected species (besides Vorcha,  who are barely articulate idiots, even if they do know Gavorn's tricks) shows up with vials and needles and stuff, during a plague that is killing your species, and you're honestly going to trust him instantly when he claims to be "only there to help"?  Please.  Were they in the wrong?  Yes.  Is their suspicion understandable?  Hell yeah it is.  They also backed down, and voluntarily disarmed.  I.e., they still gave the human a chance.  And, if you go the paragon route, you can actually reason with them instead of just threatening to waste 'em all. Is one of them still kind of a jerk afterwards? Well, yeah, but try actually thinking about what he said: he didn't think such a thing as human nobility existed.  Past tense, dude.  Now, he thinks it does exist.  You changed his perception of humans.  Good job!  Too bad you didn't notice.


[/quote]
Dude, come on, you seriously think he would believe otherwise due to one human. No, sure, they know it's possible, but they don't think all have it. They didn't voluntarily disarm, you told them to so no one would die, and I'm pretty sure they didn't want to, that's why they took him hostage.

[didymos1120]

Edit: nevermind.  That was someone else ignoring stuff.

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 juin 2010 - 03:53 .

[Christmas Ape]

Zaxares wrote...

Yes, he hates humans, but he's likely bought into the propaganda that's been blasted at him 24/7 by the Hegemony, and has never thought to question it.

Except he doesn't live in batarian space, he lives on Omega. Outside the control of the Hegemony and surrounded by humans. His ongoing exposure to humans trying to get by in lawless poverty and alien harassment has done nothing to temper his hatred. He just doesn't respect humans.

[didymos1120]

Commander Sheperd12 wrote...

Dude, come on, you seriously think he would believe otherwise due to one human. No, sure, they know it's possible, but they don't think all have it. They didn't voluntarily disarm, you told them to so no one would die, and I'm pretty sure they didn't want to, that's why they took him hostage.

No, I don't believe he thinks "all have it". If I did, I would have said so.  Still, you demonstrated that humans can be what he considers noble.  Before, he didn't believe they could.  Therefore, his perception of humanity has changed.  And no,  you don't have to threaten them.  You can also reason with them and get the same result, which I specifically pointed out.  No matter though: in either case they choose to disarm themselves.  You don't have to take the weapons by force, or make an example out of one or anything like that.  They think about it, and then put down their guns.  That's pretty much a voluntary action, I'd say.

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 juin 2010 - 04:33 .

[Christmas Ape]

didymos1120 wrote...

And no, you don't have to threaten them.

What part of the world are you from where pointing a gun at someone isn't a threat?

[didymos1120]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Zaxares wrote...
Yes, he hates humans, but he's likely bought into the propaganda that's been blasted at him 24/7 by the Hegemony, and has never thought to question it.

Except he doesn't live in batarian space, he lives on Omega. Outside the control of the Hegemony and surrounded by humans. His ongoing exposure to humans trying to get by in lawless poverty and alien harassment has done nothing to temper his hatred. He just doesn't respect humans.

Does nobody else ever talk to that guy afterward in Mordin's clinic?  His tune is very much changed. He apologizes to you for thinking the worst of you, and he's also very impressed that two humans from the clinic came for him as he knows they risked their own lives in doing so, and had nothing to gain from doing it.  So, yeah, he respects at least three humans if you bother to save him.

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 juin 2010 - 04:16 .

[didymos1120]

Christmas Ape wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
And no, you don't have to threaten them.

What part of the world are you from where pointing a gun at someone isn't a threat?

Yes, a weapon is a threat.  I was speaking specifically about your dialogue choices there.  Wasn't that obvious? 
Apparently not, so to paraphrase:

Renegade says "Shoot him and I'll kill you all.  Let him go, though, and you'll live."

Paragon says "Think about it. The pieces don't fit here.  He's not responsible.  Just let him go."

[GreenDragon37]

didymos1120 wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Zaxares wrote...
Yes, he hates humans, but he's likely bought into the propaganda that's been blasted at him 24/7 by the Hegemony, and has never thought to question it.

Except he doesn't live in batarian space, he lives on Omega. Outside the control of the Hegemony and surrounded by humans. His ongoing exposure to humans trying to get by in lawless poverty and alien harassment has done nothing to temper his hatred. He just doesn't respect humans.

Does nobody else ever talk to that guy afterward in Mordin's clinic?  His tune is very much changed. He apologizes to you for thinking the worst of you, and he's also very impressed that two humans from the clinic came for him as he knows they risked their own lives in doing so, and had nothing to gain from doing it.  So, yeah, he respects at least three humans if you bother to save him.

Oh, I've talked to him. I just don't believe him. He could easily just lie to my face. Why should I believe him, after all?  He hasn't done anything to truly make me forgive the Batarians for everything that they've done. Nothing probably ever will. There is already too much blood on Batarian hands for that.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 26 juin 2010 - 04:47 .

[GreenDragon37]

IccaRa wrote...


So the government and terrorists = everyone now?

No, but let me give you examples of those that are not apart of those, but still are antoi-Human. The Batarians at the entrance to Afterlife. The Mad Prophet. The Batarian bar tender. The one at the entrance to the quarantine zone. The ones who captured David. There. I just gave you an example of  non-government and non-terrorist Batarians. They are still vehmently anti-Human, especially the Mad Prophet and the bar tender.

Quit sugar-coating the Batarians as "desperate guys in need of help." Cause if they wanted people to feel sorry for them, they wouldn't be anti-Human and commit terrorist acts. Simple right? Yet they don't get this, why?

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 26 juin 2010 - 04:41 .