962 réponses à ce sujet

[Guilebrush]

An approach they could try in to help "increase the value" of Biotic powers without making them "completely unbalanced" would be to change the relative proportions between defenses and health on certain enemies. As we know in ME2 higher difficulties enemies usually have:

<Shields>
<Health_>

Sometimes:

<Shields>
<Armor_>
<Health_>

What if we had some enemies where they have set ups similar to:

<Shields>
<Armor>
<_____Health_____>

And other combinations of high variations between "life layers."

With the example above when you expose an enemy you don't feel like you're simply working on the "final bits" of their lifebar. Biotic and other CC powers start having a more impactful/noticeable effect on killing certain enemies, rather than what most people feel "meh, at that point it's just a few Mattock/Viper shots away from death." I dunno, maybe I'm just rambling from sleep deprivation but I thought it might be an interesting approach to increasing CC power value without blatantly overpowering them.

[Alamar2078]

As far as OSOK melee attacks I wouldn't necessarily mind it against a "goon" that has not detected you at all [stealth kill]. For example in Halo I didn't mind it.

I know that Thane approves of the stealth kill. I'm not sure if the other ME lore would agree with me though

[Alamar2078]

Having huge amounts of life and comparatively low amounts of shields & armor is an interesting take. Overall I think I'd rather see comparatively large [huge??] amounts of Armor or Shields while health should be "just the last little bit left" ...

A lot of it has to do with how the systems work & are developed though. I'd personally prefer Biotics that were at least somewhat functional vs. defenses but obviously they shouldn't be an "I Win" type of power.

[Sailears]

Really?
I never even gave thought to OSOK melee when writing that post (I said "knock-out"), but as some of you have brought it up:

Now that you mention it, I like the idea of OSOK melee - albeit under specific circumstances.

Those being:
- firstly this being about a biotic class, there is the ability to exert a lot of force with a biotically enhanced physical attack - plenty of examples I won't go into.
- secondly it could only apply if the target is ragdolled, as in the example I gave - is that any different from the power of a warp bomb now?
- finally if the target has enough health/defences, it could perhaps knock down and keep them disabled for a short duration - much like crippling slam or neural shock, after which they would get up and continue (maybe even recharge their shields or wahtever). Essentially just a knock-out punch.

Obviously this only really has consequences for vanguard and adept; other classes would have a different take on it. Besides, given those three points, and add to that it might be more difficult to get in close with a target (especially with the bigger maps they keep talking about), makes me think it would fit in just fine.


About heavy pull - yeah I didn't really give that much thought, and yes that suggestion wouldn't work well with the current mechanics in ME2.
Essentially I'd just like it to have something in its favour.
Of course the thinking is limited by this 1-2-3-4-two choice evolution process, which will naturally be different in ME3, so any thinking about changes to current powers without understanding the framework they will/have implemented is just not possible.

Modifié par Curunen, 16 mai 2011 - 07:23 .

[Lumek]

Real quick, I've been playing around with an adept for a while, and I'm getting close to the collector ship. I was wondering what assault rifles would be good for defence stripping. Before anyone says GPS I'm shooting that down, I don't like shotguns when I can't teleport into melee range, and before you bring up the GPS's range, I find it annoying to aim, so rifles or snipers are what I'm taking.

Also, what would be a good bonus power to take along? I'm considering warp ammo, just because I never use anything other than warp (explosions) pull (the setup) and singularity (conbination CC and setup) because I can only have three powers hotkeyed on a console. Throw is useless to me (mainly because I can't keep an enemy locked with it and aim it properly because it always targets someone else) so I'm thinking of something like

Heavy singularity 10
Heavy warp 10
Area pull 10
throw 1
Bastion 10
Heavy Warp Ammo 10

Thoughts?

[Ahglock]

I think without mods the only 2 assault rifle choices are vindicator or mattock. I prefer the mattock's accuracy, but the vindicator is pretty damn cool. I don;t think any of the other assault rifles you would have access to as an adept are even remotely on the same playing field as these 2 guns.

As for bonus powers I do not believe in ammo powers, the amount they help is far too small IMO. I like stasis in that it is a great 1 point power, if you plan on sinking 10 points into the bonus power though I'd say barrier.

[SonofMacPhisto]

Lumek wrote...

Real quick, I've been playing around with an adept for a while, and I'm getting close to the collector ship. I was wondering what assault rifles would be good for defence stripping. Before anyone says GPS I'm shooting that down, I don't like shotguns when I can't teleport into melee range, and before you bring up the GPS's range, I find it annoying to aim, so rifles or snipers are what I'm taking.

Also, what would be a good bonus power to take along? I'm considering warp ammo, just because I never use anything other than warp (explosions) pull (the setup) and singularity (conbination CC and setup) because I can only have three powers hotkeyed on a console. Throw is useless to me (mainly because I can't keep an enemy locked with it and aim it properly because it always targets someone else) so I'm thinking of something like

Heavy singularity 10
Heavy warp 10
Area pull 10
throw 1
Bastion 10
Heavy Warp Ammo 10

Thoughts?

Besides the extra point in Shockwave, I'm on 360 and that's the build I use.  It works very well, and if you're trying to pause as little as possible your ammo power provides the most efficient use of points.  You also become a nightmare for Collectors.

Regarding the ARs, I'd look at it this way: if you're a good shot and prefer precision weapons, choose the Vindicator or Mattock.  The Mattock is truly semi-auto as well, so if battle gets hot in CQC, you can unleash some serious firepower.  For spray and pray and generous ammo capacity pick the Avenger or Geth Pulse Rifle.  IIRC, the GPR has the best shield penetration.

Modifié par SonofMacPhisto, 16 mai 2011 - 09:44 .

[Ahglock]

The GPR has the best shield damage multiplier, but its base damage sucks so hard it doesn't help it any. The vindicator and mattock do about twice the damage per clip that the GPR does, and you can empty each clip in about the same time. The Avenger is in almot the same exact boat as the GPR though it does a bit better vs armor and a bit worse vs shields and barriers.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^I :tear: when I think of the GPR. It's handling, modifiers and huge ammo clip are perfect for the Adept, yet it's terrible base damage make me wonder what they were thinking when they made it a reward weapon for playing Hardcore+.

[The Spamming Troll]

Ahglock wrote...

I think without mods the only 2 assault rifle choices are vindicator or mattock. I prefer the mattock's accuracy, but the vindicator is pretty damn cool. I don;t think any of the other assault rifles you would have access to as an adept are even remotely on the same playing field as these 2 guns.

As for bonus powers I do not believe in ammo powers, the amount they help is far too small IMO. I like stasis in that it is a great 1 point power, if you plan on sinking 10 points into the bonus power though I'd say barrier.

although an option doesnt exist for bonus powers, iinferno ammo does have some fairly usefull CC capabilites. is it comparable to the impotent feeling a half second stagger gives them in using heavy throw on protections, some even call that effect, effective, and inferno ammos CC works pretty effectively and quickly.

i know id love having warp ammo do some kind of stun effect as well as cause damage.

[Ahglock]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I think without mods the only 2 assault rifle choices are vindicator or mattock. I prefer the mattock's accuracy, but the vindicator is pretty damn cool. I don;t think any of the other assault rifles you would have access to as an adept are even remotely on the same playing field as these 2 guns.

As for bonus powers I do not believe in ammo powers, the amount they help is far too small IMO. I like stasis in that it is a great 1 point power, if you plan on sinking 10 points into the bonus power though I'd say barrier.

although an option doesnt exist for bonus powers, iinferno ammo does have some fairly usefull CC capabilites. is it comparable to the impotent feeling a half second stagger gives them in using heavy throw on protections, some even call that effect, effective, and inferno ammos CC works pretty effectively and quickly.

i know id love having warp ammo do some kind of stun effect as well as cause damage.

Yeah the cc effects of ammo can be good especially inferno ammo since the AoE part causes the fire dance even through defenses.  I should have been more specific in my complaints about ammo powers.  

[The Spamming Troll]

sorry Ah, i see one thing i disagree with and i go into "HEY!" mode. i shouldnt try to point things out to you, you get it.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 18 mai 2011 - 12:45 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Guilebrush wrote...

What if we had some enemies where they have set ups similar to:

<Shields>
<Armor>
<_____Health_____>

And other combinations of high variations between "life layers."

With the example above when you expose an enemy you don't feel like you're simply working on the "final bits" of their lifebar. Biotic and other CC powers start having a more impactful/noticeable effect on killing certain enemies, rather than what most people feel "meh, at that point it's just a few Mattock/Viper shots away from death." I dunno, maybe I'm just rambling from sleep deprivation but I thought it might be an interesting approach to increasing CC power value without blatantly overpowering them.

On Insanity enemies have 1:1 ratio between shield/armor/barrier and health. But since weapons and powers receive massive damage multipliers against defenses (assuming one uses the 'right' powers/weapons) ratio becomes 1:2 (there are no multipliers against health). This basically means you have to use twice the number of powers or shots to kill enemies whom are down to health than to shoot down their defenses.

Example: One Warp will strip armor or barrier > two Warps are required to kill enemies down to health. One GPS shot will strip shield; two shots are needed to kill enemy etc etc. In ME2 enemy hitpoints are (relatively):

<Protection>
<_______Health_______>

This makes (biotic) powers, which are only useful / effective against unprotected enemies, incredibly valuable; regardless difficulty level. Adepts can easily inflict more than 2/3 of their total damage through powers - on Insanity.

[Ahglock]

Bozorgmehr wrote...



On Insanity enemies have 1:1 ratio between shield/armor/barrier and health. But since weapons and powers receive massive damage multipliers against defenses (assuming one uses the 'right' powers/weapons) ratio becomes 1:2 (there are no multipliers against health). This basically means you have to use twice the number of powers or shots to kill enemies whom are down to health than to shoot down their defenses.

Example: One Warp will strip armor or barrier > two Warps are required to kill enemies down to health. One GPS shot will strip shield; two shots are needed to kill enemy etc etc. In ME2 enemy hitpoints are (relatively):

<Protection>
<_______Health_______>

This makes (biotic) powers, which are only useful / effective against unprotected enemies, incredibly valuable; regardless difficulty level. Adepts can easily inflict more than 2/3 of their total damage through powers - on Insanity.

Well since all ragdolled targets take double damage it almost goes right pack to 

<protection>
<health----->

I mean sure you can go out of your way to do less damage with things like warp on a non-biotic effected target, but that is no different than using pistols against shields.  

[Dave666]

Ahglock wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...



On Insanity enemies have 1:1 ratio between shield/armor/barrier and health. But since weapons and powers receive massive damage multipliers against defenses (assuming one uses the 'right' powers/weapons) ratio becomes 1:2 (there are no multipliers against health). This basically means you have to use twice the number of powers or shots to kill enemies whom are down to health than to shoot down their defenses.

Example: One Warp will strip armor or barrier > two Warps are required to kill enemies down to health. One GPS shot will strip shield; two shots are needed to kill enemy etc etc. In ME2 enemy hitpoints are (relatively):

<Protection>
<_______Health_______>

This makes (biotic) powers, which are only useful / effective against unprotected enemies, incredibly valuable; regardless difficulty level. Adepts can easily inflict more than 2/3 of their total damage through powers - on Insanity.

Well since all ragdolled targets take double damage it almost goes right pack to 

<protection>
<health----->

I mean sure you can go out of your way to do less damage with things like warp on a non-biotic effected target, but that is no different than using pistols against shields.  

Indeed.  Especially when you add on the bonus damage that the gun-centric classes get in their passives.  Any class can gain the double damage to biotic affected enemies, just bring along an appropriate squaddie.

[Bozorgmehr]

Ahglock wrote...

Well since all ragdolled targets take double damage it almost goes right pack to 

<protection>
<health----->

I mean sure you can go out of your way to do less damage with things like warp on a non-biotic effected target, but that is no different than using pistols against shields.

How does this change anything? For all I know enemies are not automatically considered ragdolled whenever they lose defenses. When you use the GPS you will one-shot shields and barriers; you cannot one-shot enemies who are down to health. It's like:

<protection>
use Pull, Singularity (or Cryo Blast/Ammo and wait 1-2 seconds) on target first
<health-----> instead of -->

This also works for Warp; one Warpbomb will kill enemy (if Warp can one-shot armor/barrier of that enemy). But using Pull AND Warp does not equal using Warp only.

You don't have to use a power on enemies to get damage multipliers against defenses first; you do need powers to get any damage increase against health.

Dave666 wrote...

Indeed. Especially when you add on the bonus damage that the gun-centric classes get in their passives. Any class can gain the double damage to biotic affected enemies, just bring along an appropriate squaddie.

What passives? You mean the +15% damage bonus? That is neglectible with pretty much every weapon available. The GPS gets a +100% damage bonus (that's twice the damage you do against health); passives are in the range of one and a half weapon damage upgrade - you won't notice the difference (more like a ~5% damage bonus).

I don't see what squadmates have to do with enemies' health and defense ratio.

[Ahglock]

Bozorgmehr wrote...



How does this change anything? For all I know enemies are not automatically considered ragdolled whenever they lose defenses. When you use the GPS you will one-shot shields and barriers; you cannot one-shot enemies who are down to health. It's like:

<protection>
use Pull, Singularity (or Cryo Blast/Ammo and wait 1-2 seconds) on target first
<health-----> instead of -->

This also works for Warp; one Warpbomb will kill enemy (if Warp can one-shot armor/barrier of that enemy). But using Pull AND Warp does not equal using Warp only.

You don't have to use a power on enemies to get damage multipliers against defenses first; you do need powers to get any damage increase against health.

I am not sure a broken DLC shotgun proves a point.  And while powers like overload will one shot defenses, they have twice the cool down of pull.  So it almsot works out to be the same.  You neutralize defneses in one shot, you neutralize the targets in one shot and finish them off with one more.  Is it as fast to get rid of health, no.  But it is so damn close(1.6 second cooldown) to it I don't see the point in making the distinction.  And it can be basically just as fast if you are using squadmates.  1 squadmate to remove defenses, the other to ragdoll, you to finish off.

If you are talking pure weapon damage vs targets a ragdoll power on a squadmate is instant cast so it is the same time to kill with guns as it is to take down their defenses. Hitting hotkey 4 doesn't really slow you down.

[Bozorgmehr]

Ahglock wrote...

I am not sure a broken DLC shotgun proves a point.  And while powers like overload will one shot defenses, they have twice the cool down of pull.  So it almsot works out to be the same.  You neutralize defneses in one shot, you neutralize the targets in one shot and finish them off with one more.  Is it as fast to get rid of health, no.  But it is so damn close(1.6 second cooldown) to it I don't see the point in making the distinction.  And it can be basically just as fast if you are using squadmates.  1 squadmate to remove defenses, the other to ragdoll, you to finish off.

If you are talking pure weapon damage vs targets a ragdoll power on a squadmate is instant cast so it is the same time to kill with guns as it is to take down their defenses. Hitting hotkey 4 doesn't really slow you down.

The GPS, like the Katana and the Scimitar receives a 100% bonus against shields and barriers, Evi and Claymore 75% but also get a bonus against armor. All ARs get a 40-65% damage bonus against all defenses, all SRs get a 75-100% damage bonus against armor etc.

Speed is irrelevant to the aspect ratio imo, but since you mentioned it, using Pull plus waiting before it affects target requires more than 1.6 seconds and you wasted a cooldown which could also be used on other enemies - it will slow you down no matter what. Defenses go down faster than health which makes biotic powers powerful, regardless if enemies have defenses or not (your Pull example only supports the point).

[The Spamming Troll]

the GPS, and the mattock were put into the game to throw its balance, not to level the playing field. is the katana or the scimitar the starter shotgun? i hope your not trying to compare the two...

how come in game it seems as tho health is much easier to take down then defenses? i know someone figured something out numbers-wise, but still, how so?

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^I feel that way too. It's probably b/c all the cc, stagger and knockdown effects are unhindered when health is exposed - it usually means that unprotected enemies are helpless once you start wailing on them. That, and the opportunity to instakill, ignoring the health figure altogether, I guess.

[Ahglock]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the GPS, and the mattock were put into the game to throw its balance, not to level the playing field. is the katana or the scimitar the starter shotgun? i hope your not trying to compare the two...

how come in game it seems as tho health is much easier to take down then defenses? i know someone figured something out numbers-wise, but still, how so?

Because you can insantly diasble them in one shot removing the threat they pose to you.  The time it takes to kill them is insignifgantly longer on top of that.  So less preassure, and very little extra time.  

[Dave666]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Indeed. Especially when you add on the bonus damage that the gun-centric classes get in their passives. Any class can gain the double damage to biotic affected enemies, just bring along an appropriate squaddie.

What passives? You mean the +15% damage bonus? That is neglectible with pretty much every weapon available. The GPS gets a +100% damage bonus (that's twice the damage you do against health); passives are in the range of one and a half weapon damage upgrade - you won't notice the difference (more like a ~5% damage bonus).

15% sounds small, but its not really when you think about it.  Thats 15% added on top of base weapon damage for all defences and health and its added to every single shot that a gun makes, it all adds up very quickly.  Then add on the double damage from an enemy being ragdolled via a Squadmates Pull and enemies die so fast from gunfire that its ridiculous.

The issue I have is that only biotics suffer the protection system (and Engineer to a lesser extent).  Imagine if Vangards couldn't Charge if enemies still had protections?  Or what if Infiltrators couldn't get head shots until defences were stripped first?  Why is it only biotics that feel this?  I just want them to level the damned playing field.

If Protections remained as they are but Health was doubled and the damage that powers did to health was increased then I'd feel a lot happier about it. Using powers to kill an enemy (especially when you've had to strip defences before you can even use the damned powers) should be much more effective than using guns and quite frankly, thats just not how it feels (to me) when playing.

[mcsupersport]

Dave666 wrote...



The issue I have is that only biotics suffer the protection system (and Engineer to a lesser extent).  Imagine if Vangards couldn't Charge if enemies still had protections?  Or what if Infiltrators couldn't get head shots until defences were stripped first?  Why is it only biotics that feel this?  I just want them to level the damned playing field.

If Protections remained as they are but Health was doubled and the damage that powers did to health was increased then I'd feel a lot happier about it. Using powers to kill an enemy (especially when you've had to strip defences before you can even use the damned powers) should be much more effective than using guns and quite frankly, thats just not how it feels (to me) when playing.

The problem with biotics is if they don't suffer the penalty against protections then you are back to GOD mode they had in ME1.  If I can float a guy, then on a bunch of areas he is dead within seconds, as in falls and punted off map.  If you allow full biotic action like in ME1 then the Adept becomes a cakewalk like Veteran level and below now or ME1 was.  It would require massive redesign of enemies and levels to prevent a problem that simply allowing protections to prevent full biotic ragdoll effect does.  Protections go down very fast with the right crew and then enemies start dying in a hurry, or at least they do on my current insanity run.

[Dave666]

mcsupersport wrote...

Dave666 wrote...



The issue I have is that only biotics suffer the protection system (and Engineer to a lesser extent).  Imagine if Vangards couldn't Charge if enemies still had protections?  Or what if Infiltrators couldn't get head shots until defences were stripped first?  Why is it only biotics that feel this?  I just want them to level the damned playing field.

If Protections remained as they are but Health was doubled and the damage that powers did to health was increased then I'd feel a lot happier about it. Using powers to kill an enemy (especially when you've had to strip defences before you can even use the damned powers) should be much more effective than using guns and quite frankly, thats just not how it feels (to me) when playing.

The problem with biotics is if they don't suffer the penalty against protections then you are back to GOD mode they had in ME1.  If I can float a guy, then on a bunch of areas he is dead within seconds, as in falls and punted off map.  If you allow full biotic action like in ME1 then the Adept becomes a cakewalk like Veteran level and below now or ME1 was.  It would require massive redesign of enemies and levels to prevent a problem that simply allowing protections to prevent full biotic ragdoll effect does.  Protections go down very fast with the right crew and then enemies start dying in a hurry, or at least they do on my current insanity run.

I'm not saying get rid of protections.  I'm saying make them be just as much of an issue for other classes.  Like playing Vangard?  Good for you, better get good at stripping protections if you want to Charge.  Like getting Head shots with your Infiltrator?  Better get good at stripping defences first.  As it stands for half of the classes protections are no different to the enemies having more health (just half of that health happens to be blue, yellow or purple).

[The Spamming Troll]

mcsupersport wrote...

Dave666 wrote...



The issue I have is that only biotics suffer the protection system (and Engineer to a lesser extent).  Imagine if Vangards couldn't Charge if enemies still had protections?  Or what if Infiltrators couldn't get head shots until defences were stripped first?  Why is it only biotics that feel this?  I just want them to level the damned playing field.

If Protections remained as they are but Health was doubled and the damage that powers did to health was increased then I'd feel a lot happier about it. Using powers to kill an enemy (especially when you've had to strip defences before you can even use the damned powers) should be much more effective than using guns and quite frankly, thats just not how it feels (to me) when playing.

The problem with biotics is if they don't suffer the penalty against protections then you are back to GOD mode they had in ME1.  If I can float a guy, then on a bunch of areas he is dead within seconds, as in falls and punted off map.  If you allow full biotic action like in ME1 then the Adept becomes a cakewalk like Veteran level and below now or ME1 was.  It would require massive redesign of enemies and levels to prevent a problem that simply allowing protections to prevent full biotic ragdoll effect does.  Protections go down very fast with the right crew and then enemies start dying in a hurry, or at least they do on my current insanity run.

were all under the impreion ME3 is going to have a MASSIVE redisgned huge levels, and combat is going to be advanced further with rocket boots enemies causing havoc and shepard shooting or using abilities to strip enemy protections(as in shields!!!).

you have to ask yourself, why would an evolved version of throw be worse in ME3 then it is in ME2? 

this is what i want an adept to be in ME2......

singularity
stasis
pull
warp
warp ammo
barrier
stasis
dominate

...is that too OP or is that just "an adept?"

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 19 mai 2011 - 02:33 .