962 réponses à ce sujet

[mcsupersport]

Personally I would like the Adept to be something like this:

Mandatory powers:
Pull
Throw
Singularity
Barrier
Warp


1 with a later upgrade to 2 optional powers, ie bonus

Stasis
Dominate
an improved version of Shockwave(more damage/through defenses)
Warp Ammo
Biotic melee attack

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

how come in game it seems as tho health is much easier to take down then defenses? i know someone figured something out numbers-wise, but still, how so?

Defenses go down much faster than health and is hard to miss when playing. Whatever you do, health goes down slower. Enemies who've lost defenses can easily be CC ed which reduces their threat to zero. Because enemies are vulnerable to CC does not mean they die quicker, they're simply easier to control.

Dave666 wrote...

15% sounds small, but its not really when you think about it. Thats 15% added on top of base weapon damage for all defences and health and its added to every single shot that a gun makes, it all adds up very quickly. Then add on the double damage from an enemy being ragdolled via a Squadmates Pull and enemies die so fast from gunfire that its ridiculous.

15% is nothing, it's added to the upgrade bonuses, it's not added on top of the total damage - like the +100% vs shield/barrier for Scimitar, Katana and GPS does. Fully upgraded that 15% adds maybe 5-10% extra damage:

Mattock 50 damage; 7/7 upgrades > 85 (health), 85*1.45 = 123 (shield/barrier), 85*1.55 = 132 (armor) > with the extra 15% numbers will become 92 (+8%), 133 (+8%), 142 (+8%)

Katana 220 damage; 6/6 upgrades > 352 (health/armor), 352*2 = 704 (shield/barrier) > with 15% bonus numbers become 385 (+9%) and 770 (+9%)

Enemies die just as fast after you've Pulled them as they lose defense without having to anything at all. Shield vs Health is 1 vs 2 (roughly).

The issue I have is that only biotics suffer the protection system (and Engineer to a lesser extent). Imagine if Vangards couldn't Charge if enemies still had protections? Or what if Infiltrators couldn't get head shots until defences were stripped first? Why is it only biotics that feel this? I just want them to level the damned playing field.

I don't see what buffs have to do with protection. You can always headshot somebody (Adepts can do it too and do exactly the same amount of damage), you always receive the headshot bonus, you can always Charge, and you can always shotgun enemies even if the first shot doesn't klill em. Cloak has no effect on enemies, you can use it a million times and nothing happens to enemies - what does this have to do with powers which need to be targeted at enemies to trigger some kind of effect?

If you want a broken game, play below hardcore or mod the game so you can Pull everyone (even worse). Also, about half of all biotic powers are highly effective against defenses (Singularity, Warp, Reave and Stasis) - compare that to Soldiers, Vanguards and Infiltrators. Only Infiltrators have something they can use against armor; thus they're all incredibly gimped when faces with defenses, eh? Or are Adepts somehow allergic to weapons?

If Protections remained as they are but Health was doubled and the damage that powers did to health was increased then I'd feel a lot happier about it. Using powers to kill an enemy (especially when you've had to strip defences before you can even use the damned powers) should be much more effective than using guns and quite frankly, thats just not how it feels (to me) when playing.

Enemies already have more health than defenses and making powers even more powerful against health only reduces their usefulness. If one Warp strips defenses and one Warp kills enemy than there is no difference between health and defenses. As it is you need at least two Warps to kill someone who has lost protection by a single Warp.

The point of ME is to use both weapons and powers combined - not one or the other. A Soldier is an Adept without using ARush; an Adept is a Soldier without using biotics. Their powers sets them apart, not weapons everybody can use.

I'm not saying get rid of protections. I'm saying make them be just as much of an issue for other classes. Like playing Vangard? Good for you, better get good at stripping protections if you want to Charge. Like getting Head shots with your Infiltrator? Better get good at stripping defences first. As it stands for half of the classes protections are no different to the enemies having more health (just half of that health happens to be blue, yellow or purple).

That would ruin the combat classes imo. OSOKs are needed to not make ME a mess like most other games (on hardest difficulty) where you have to put 10+ shots into a normal grunt's head before they die. I agree that OSOKs are too easy. I'd like to see a more specialized way to develop your character so only Infiltrators who invest most of their points into skills/buffs to snipe are able to OSOK using the most powerful SR in-game - Infiltrators who like to mess around with other abilities cannot one-shot enemies - Vanguards idem. There's nothing wrong with OSOK but it's too easy in ME2 and no comprimises are required to get em going.

I hope in ME3 only true specialists can pull em off. Vanguards who want to one-shot enemies? Sure, but they will lose most (or all) of their defensive buff to get the damage boost needed to one-shot. They can kill fast, but they will die faster whenever they make a mistake.

[Sparrow44]

Aside from Dominate (as cool as a power it is, it isn't really a biotic power) I would like to see the Adept with all of the biotic powers at it's disposal and maybe ME3 will introduce new ones as well.

In comparison with biotics from the other games, ME1 meant you could render targets helpless with Lift or Singularity and by then you still had to shoot enemies in order to kill them even if they were 30-40 ft. in the air. ME2 (on Insanity) required you to either shoot protections off or use squadmate de-buffs to get rid of them before being able to throw targets around the map.

I think in ME3 the weapons/biotics ratio could do with more of a balance in terms of using both sets of the arsenal equally; Shepard shouldn't be able to handle ALL situations with guns alone and so has to use their biotics, however also shouldn't be able to steamroll every tough enemy in the game with biotic 'I WIN BUTTONS' as not only would that make the game too easy but realistically if Shepard did that he/she would be physically and mentally drained from the heavy power usage.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

how come in game it seems as tho health is much easier to take down then defenses? i know someone figured something out numbers-wise, but still, how so?

Defenses go down much faster than health and is hard to miss when playing. Whatever you do, health goes down slower. Enemies who've lost defenses can easily be CC ed which reduces their threat to zero. Because enemies are vulnerable to CC does not mean they die quicker, they're simply easier to control.

so i dont get what you were arguing about then, if health and protections seem much the same.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The
issue I have is that only biotics suffer the protection system (and
Engineer to a lesser extent). Imagine if Vangards couldn't Charge if
enemies still had protections? Or what if Infiltrators couldn't get
head shots until defences were stripped first? Why is it only biotics
that feel this? I just want them to level the damned playing
field.

I don't see what buffs have to do with
protection. You can always headshot somebody (Adepts can do it too and
do exactly the same amount of damage), you always receive the headshot
bonus, you can always Charge, and you can always shotgun enemies even
if the first shot doesn't klill em. Cloak has no effect on enemies, you
can use it a million times and nothing happens to enemies - what does
this have to do with powers which need to be targeted at enemies to
trigger some kind of effect?

If you want a broken game, play
below hardcore or mod the game so you can Pull everyone (even worse).
Also, about half of all biotic powers are highly effective against
defenses (Singularity, Warp, Reave and Stasis) - compare that to
Soldiers, Vanguards and Infiltrators. Only Infiltrators have something
they can use against armor; thus they're all incredibly gimped when
faces with defenses, eh? Or are Adepts somehow allergic to weapons?

thats the point! you can always headshot with a sniper rifle, you can always charge as a vangaurd and you can always cloak as an infiltrator. you CANT always play biotics like an adept, AND THATS HIS POINT. why does the adept see such a drastic change to its gameplay, while everyone else can still charge, cloak, and headshot. the game is broken in an almost backwards way for the adept.

i also wanted to mention an adepts weapons will NEVER compare to the effectiveness of those same weapons on an infiltrator or vangaurd. the soldier has an ability for every enemy type they face in game, just because its ammo powers are not an active ability doesnt mean its doesnt count. reave and warp should strip defenses because they are debuffs. stasis is available to everyone, and is possibly the best biotic ability in the game, and singularity is far to inconsistant and ineffective to have it be something to compare to waht AR, cloak, charge, drone, and tech armor can do for your character.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I'm
not saying get rid of protections. I'm saying make them be just as much
of an issue for other classes. Like playing Vangard? Good for you,
better get good at stripping protections if you want to Charge. Like
getting Head shots with your Infiltrator? Better get good at stripping
defences first. As it stands for half of the classes protections are no
different to the enemies having more health (just half of that health
happens to be blue, yellow or purple).

That would ruin
the combat classes imo. OSOKs are needed to not make ME a mess like
most other games (on hardest difficulty) where you have to put 10+
shots into a normal grunt's head before they die. I agree that OSOKs
are too easy. I'd like to see a more specialized way to develop your
character so only Infiltrators who invest most of their points into
skills/buffs to snipe are able to OSOK using the most powerful SR
in-game - Infiltrators who like to mess around with other abilities
cannot one-shot enemies - Vanguards idem. There's nothing wrong with
OSOK but it's too easy in ME2 and no comprimises are required to get em
going.

I hope in ME3 only true specialists can pull em off.
Vanguards who want to one-shot enemies? Sure, but they will lose most
(or all) of their defensive buff to get the damage boost needed to
one-shot. They can kill fast, but they will die faster whenever they
make a mistake.

so screw the caster classes as long as the combat classes kick ass?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 19 mai 2011 - 05:32 .

[Ahglock]

The Spamming Troll wrote...


so screw the caster classes as long as the combat classes kick ass?

That does seem to be the general consensus.  It is perfectly fine for a combat class to one shot one kill most targets through defenses but if a Biotic CCs a target through defenses dear god it is broken.  You want to relax the restrictions on adept that is broken, you say fine add the same level of restirctions to other classes and that is not fair.  

[Dave666]

Ahglock wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...


so screw the caster classes as long as the combat classes kick ass?

That does seem to be the general consensus.  It is perfectly fine for a combat class to one shot one kill most targets through defenses but if a Biotic CCs a target through defenses dear god it is broken.  You want to relax the restrictions on adept that is broken, you say fine add the same level of restirctions to other classes and that is not fair.  

Precisely.  If its not fair to add those same restrictions to the gun-centric classes, then by definition its unfair to give them to power-centric ones.  If Infiltrators could only get OSOK headshots on enemies if they were on health (i.e. you had to strip defences first).  Or Vangards could only Charge enemies on Health then I wouldn't be asking for equality, now would I?

Modifié par Dave666, 19 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

[Sparrow44]

A Vanguard being able to Charge an enemy and send it flying even if they had protections would not benefit them at all as they wouldn't be able to use the shotgun on them while they've flown away.

And sometimes stripping the barriers of a Collector Guardian/Assassin not even fully could let you OSOK them with a Widow headshot as you get that particular bonus regardless.

Adept's being able to use biotics on targets with 'standard' shields earlier on in the game and then later in the game with tougher enemies with 'advanced' shields may be able to resist biotics fully or not and may need defense stripping then. I don't know certain types of enemies like the Cerberus jet-pack troops would be ripe for Adept picking no?

[Tony Gunslinger]

Dave666 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...


so screw the caster classes as long as the combat classes kick ass?

That does seem to be the general consensus.  It is perfectly fine for a combat class to one shot one kill most targets through defenses but if a Biotic CCs a target through defenses dear god it is broken.  You want to relax the restrictions on adept that is broken, you say fine add the same level of restirctions to other classes and that is not fair.  

Precisely.  If its not fair to add those same restrictions to the gun-centric classes, then by definition its unfair to give them to power-centric ones.  If Infiltrators could only get OSOK headshots on enemies if they were on health (i.e. you had to strip defences first).  Or Vangards could only Charge enemies on Health then I wouldn't be asking for equality, now would I?

I don’t exactly agree with this. First of all, powers are much easier to use than guns: you point the camera in the general direction of your target and press a button. With the Widow, you still need to move your reticule a head that’s moving around. So in this regard, being able to One-Button-One-Kill just because you can One-Shot-One-Kill is silly.

Secondly, you need to invest in at least 3 skill trees to constantly OSOK level 30 enemies with the Widow: your class passive, your special ability and at least one ammo power. With 3 skills, I could invest in my Adept: passive, singularity, warp. In the time you snipe and then go back to reload, I can cast a singularity + shoot with my “crappy” SMG to strip defense + warp bomb all in 2.7 secs, capable of knocking out anyone within a 5-7 m radius.

Third of all, snipers have no crowd control abilities and bad at teamwork. They’re a one trick pony trying to make most with a very narrow aspect of the game. If you cast Miranda’s Overload on a group of mercs, the most you can kill with the Widow is one(1) of them. With my Adept's I can Pull Field them all in the air, and then I have options to either a) finish them off or attack another group. The common gripe from players new infiltrator/soldier on insanity is that squadmates suck and die too often, and they have to constantly micromanage them. That’s because sniper builds are too specialized. If you can't use teamwork and can't imagine how to use a balanced attack between guns and powers, then you're going to have a harder time on insanity, no matter what class you are.

[Dave666]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...


so screw the caster classes as long as the combat classes kick ass?

That does seem to be the general consensus.  It is perfectly fine for a combat class to one shot one kill most targets through defenses but if a Biotic CCs a target through defenses dear god it is broken.  You want to relax the restrictions on adept that is broken, you say fine add the same level of restirctions to other classes and that is not fair.  

Precisely.  If its not fair to add those same restrictions to the gun-centric classes, then by definition its unfair to give them to power-centric ones.  If Infiltrators could only get OSOK headshots on enemies if they were on health (i.e. you had to strip defences first).  Or Vangards could only Charge enemies on Health then I wouldn't be asking for equality, now would I?

I don’t exactly agree with this. First of all, powers are much easier to use than guns: you point the camera in the general direction of your target and press a button. With the Widow, you still need to move your reticule a head that’s moving around. So in this regard, being able to One-Button-One-Kill just because you can One-Shot-One-Kill is silly.

Secondly, you need to invest in at least 3 skill trees to constantly OSOK level 30 enemies with the Widow: your class passive, your special ability and at least one ammo power. With 3 skills, I could invest in my Adept: passive, singularity, warp. In the time you snipe and then go back to reload, I can cast a singularity + shoot with my “crappy” SMG to strip defense + warp bomb all in 2.7 secs, capable of knocking out anyone within a 5-7 m radius.

Third of all, snipers have no crowd control abilities and bad at teamwork. They’re a one trick pony trying to make most with a very narrow aspect of the game. If you cast Miranda’s Overload on a group of mercs, the most you can kill with the Widow is one(1) of them. With my Adept's I can Pull Field them all in the air, and then I have options to either a) finish them off or attack another group. The common gripe from players new infiltrator/soldier on insanity is that squadmates suck and die too often, and they have to constantly micromanage them. That’s because sniper builds are too specialized. If you can't use teamwork and can't imagine how to use a balanced attack between guns and powers, then you're going to have a harder time on insanity, no matter what class you are.

Easier to use is debateable when you're arching powers around corners or over cover and using multiple powers at a time.  Seems much easier to me to just point a cross hair at an enemy and hold down a trigger.

Infiltrator gets Overload and Incinerate for Shield and Armour stripping so thats a moot point about how the Adept would be using powers, the Infiltrator should be doing the same.

Snipers have no Crowd Control?  Really?  I'm assuming you mean apart from the Infiltrators Disruptor Ammo (which when used against synthetic enemies can disable enemy weaponry), Cryo Ammo which can freeze enemies in their tracks, AI Hacking which is all about Crowd Controling synthetics and Incinerate which when used on undefended organic enemies spreads and causes the 'fire dance'?  Sure...no Crowd Control whatsoever there...

Hell even the Soldier gets Crowd Control through Ammo Powers.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

BW's route in ME3 seems to be to relax restrictions on powers (by expanding their functions), while keeping shooting more or less the same. I believe they've taken a good middle-of-the-road approach, though we won't know their results for some time.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Dave666 wrote...

Easier to use is debateable when you're arching powers around corners or over cover and using multiple powers at a time.  Seems much easier to me to just point a cross hair at an enemy and hold down a trigger.

Actually arching powers are the ideal power in certain situations since they go around obstacles. And how many times did your target go back into hiding when you turn on cloak for a snipe? This doesn’t even count that you can only snipe 13 times from your position. If you want to discuss in detail about how use to powers (arching vs insta-cast), I'll do it in another post/thread because it's quite long for a single reply.

Infiltrator gets Overload and Incinerate for Shield and Armour stripping so thats a moot point about how the Adept would be using powers, the Infiltrator should be doing the same.

Infiltrator gets Disruptor Ammo, not Overload. And I agree that they should be using powers other than Cloak, but it’s hard to use Incinerate while carrying around your OSOK sniper rifle, so you have to switch to your SMG/pistol. In essence, when you're using the Widow, you can't using CC powers that much.

Snipers have no Crowd Control?  Really?  I'm assuming you mean apart from the Infiltrators Disruptor Ammo (which when used against synthetic enemies can disable enemy weaponry), Cryo Ammo which can freeze enemies in their tracks, AI Hacking which is all about Crowd Controling synthetics and Incinerate which when used on undefended organic enemies spreads and causes the 'fire dance'?  Sure...no Crowd Control whatsoever there...

Hell even the Soldier gets Crowd Control through Ammo Powers.

Incinerate/Disruptor/Cryo ammo's CC properties only work when you strip off their defenses. And you can't strip defenses with the Widow, you OSOK them, one at a time. So again, you have to switch to another weapon if you want to CC.

[Dave666]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Easier to use is debateable when you're arching powers around corners or over cover and using multiple powers at a time.  Seems much easier to me to just point a cross hair at an enemy and hold down a trigger.

Actually arching powers are the ideal power in certain situations since they go around obstacles. And how many times did your target go back into hiding when you turn on cloak for a snipe? This doesn’t even count that you can only snipe 13 times from your position. If you want to discuss in detail about how use to powers (arching vs insta-cast), I'll do it in another post/thread because it's quite long for a single reply.

Infiltrator gets Overload and Incinerate for Shield and Armour stripping so thats a moot point about how the Adept would be using powers, the Infiltrator should be doing the same.

Infiltrator gets Disruptor Ammo, not Overload. And I agree that they should be using powers other than Cloak, but it’s hard to use Incinerate while carrying around your OSOK sniper rifle, so you have to switch to your SMG/pistol. In essence, when you're using the Widow, you can't using CC powers that much.

Snipers have no Crowd Control?  Really?  I'm assuming you mean apart from the Infiltrators Disruptor Ammo (which when used against synthetic enemies can disable enemy weaponry), Cryo Ammo which can freeze enemies in their tracks, AI Hacking which is all about Crowd Controling synthetics and Incinerate which when used on undefended organic enemies spreads and causes the 'fire dance'?  Sure...no Crowd Control whatsoever there...

Hell even the Soldier gets Crowd Control through Ammo Powers.

Incinerate/Disruptor/Cryo ammo's CC properties only work when you strip off their defenses. And you can't strip defenses with the Widow, you OSOK them, one at a time. So again, you have to switch to another weapon if you want to CC.

I see what you're saying Tony, but I hope that you see where I'm coming from.  Yes, when it comes to Crowd Control the Infiltrator, Vangard or Soldier are in the same boat as the Adept.  They all have to strip protections first.  However there's still a bit of a disconnect in that those classes can also be doing OSOK's inbetween Crowd Controling.  Can you think of a single ability that the Adept gets that can equal the OSOK of the combat classes?  I can't.  Sure the Adept can kill multiple enemies if you strip all of their defences and manage to get them grouped close enough together, but in the same time it takes to do all that the Infiltrator or Soldier could have OSOK'd the lot.  Don't get much more Crowd Controled than dead.

[Guilebrush]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

If you want a broken game, play below hardcore or mod the game so you can Pull everyone (even worse). Also, about half of all biotic powers are highly effective against defenses (Singularity, Warp, Reave and Stasis) - compare that to Soldiers, Vanguards and Infiltrators. Only Infiltrators have something they can use against armor; thus they're all incredibly gimped when faces with defenses, eh? Or are Adepts somehow allergic to weapons?

I think herein lies the fundamental issue (flaw?) with the way certain powers were handled in ME1&2, they have a tendency to be binary. Basically once a power has the capability to effect something it does it's job too well. While on the flipside against something protected against it, nearly nothing happens...

Hopefully come ME3 they find a way to smoothen the discrepancy vs effective targets and less than ideal targets. I'm not saying that certain powers shouldn't be specialized but maybe tone down the level of specialization a bit. Coversely if what I've been gathering from the tidbits of information they've been releasing is correct, the increase in character build choice should help mitigate the impact of the dilemma anyway. The "problem," if you even want to call it that, is far more pronounced on companion characters than on Shepards anyway since they each have very shallow talent and weapon pools to draw from (I'm looking at you Jack and Jacob!). I'm pretty sure that the data and videos provided by Boz and other skilled Adept players have more than proven that the class and the power and weapon suite available to it, is in a very good place as is, in ME2.

[The Spamming Troll]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Easier to use is debateable when you're arching powers around corners or over cover and using multiple powers at a time.  Seems much easier to me to just point a cross hair at an enemy and hold down a trigger.

Actually arching powers are the ideal power in certain situations since they go around obstacles. And how many times did your target go back into hiding when you turn on cloak for a snipe? This doesn’t even count that you can only snipe 13 times from your position. If you want to discuss in detail about how use to powers (arching vs insta-cast), I'll do it in another post/thread because it's quite long for a single reply.

you can use cloak for more things then simply shooting while hiden. cloak is the somewhat the most usefull offensive and deensive abilit in the game, im sure youve seen the CQC infiltrator. i hate the fact that an infiltrator only carries 13 rounds at a time, but thats a problem that you arent directing to bioware. biotic powers are ideal when ledges are around, other then that, id rather take insta cast, even tho gameplay wouldnt look as flashy.

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

so i dont get what you were arguing about then, if health and protections seem much the same.

If you think 1 dollar equals 2 dollars - yes.

thats the point! you can always headshot with a sniper rifle, you can always charge as a vangaurd and you can always cloak as an infiltrator. you CANT always play biotics like an adept, AND THATS HIS POINT. why does the adept see such a drastic change to its gameplay, while everyone else can still charge, cloak, and headshot. the game is broken in an almost backwards way for the adept.

Adepts can ALWAYS headshot (like everyone else); they can ALWAYS use biotic powers - Adept gameplay does NOT change - you only have to strip defenses first to use the OTHER biotic powers that are not very effective against defenses. This is also the case playing on Casual btw. Your point is nonsense.

i also wanted to mention an adepts weapons will NEVER compare to the effectiveness of those same weapons on an infiltrator or vangaurd. the soldier has an ability for every enemy type they face in game, just because its ammo powers are not an active ability doesnt mean its doesnt count. reave and warp should strip defenses because they are debuffs. stasis is available to everyone, and is possibly the best biotic ability in the game, and singularity is far to inconsistant and ineffective to have it be something to compare to waht AR, cloak, charge, drone, and tech armor can do for your character.

Weapon damage is equal for all classes; Adepts are just as able with weapons as the combat classes - the only real difference is early-game when the Adept doesn't have his/her bonus weapon yet. Adepts have multiple abilities they can use against EVERY enemy in the game. Adept can also OSOK enemies with the Mantis or a shotgun - no difference compared to the combat classes.

You're considering every biotic power to be total crap whilst (less useful / powerful) powers - which are not available to Adepts - rock.

so screw the caster classes as long as the combat classes kick ass?

Casters are not 'screwed' - you're the one who's playstyle's 'screwed' - that's quite a difference

you can use cloak for more things then simply shooting while hiden. cloak is the somewhat the most usefull offensive and deensive abilit in the game, im sure youve seen the CQC infiltrator. i hate the fact that an infiltrator only carries 13 rounds at a time, but thats a problem that you arent directing to bioware. biotic powers are ideal when ledges are around, other then that, id rather take insta cast, even tho gameplay wouldnt look as flashy.

Cloak hides Shepard; nothing more - using Cloak to pick off enemies from afar or at close range is not different than an Adept using biotic power X at long-range or at CQC range. How you use powers and how you implement them into your playstyle is an entirely different matter. Adepts can play snipers or go CQC - like every other class for that matter.

Arcing means controlling your powers, so you can drag someone out of cover, Pull em towards their pals to follow up with a Warp explosion; Pull explosive containers towards enemies; smash them into walls or other obstacles. Ledges are the icing on the (biotic) cake. Arcing powers are great though I agree that the Adept could use at least one insta-cast power (like all other classes) - insta-cast Singularity would be great imo; everything else should remain the same.

[Bozorgmehr]

Dave666 wrote...

Precisely.  If its not fair to add those same restrictions to the gun-centric classes, then by definition its unfair to give them to power-centric ones.  If Infiltrators could only get OSOK headshots on enemies if they were on health (i.e. you had to strip defences first).  Or Vangards could only Charge enemies on Health then I wouldn't be asking for equality, now would I?

What restrictions? Everyone can one-shot enemies if they really want to - weapons one-shot, not powers. Cloak, Charge and ARush don't kill enemies; weapons do, weapons which can be used by everyone. The combat classes cannot OSOK using HP, SMG or AR - like Adepts; and since there will be no more weapon restrictions in ME3, Adepts can use stuff like the Claymore and Widow too - problem solved.

Easier to use is debateable when you're arching powers around corners or over cover and using multiple powers at a time. Seems much easier to me to just point a cross hair at an enemy and hold down a trigger.

Then why complain about biotics if you can tear the enemy apart with weapons so easily?

Infiltrator gets Overload and Incinerate for Shield and Armour stripping so thats a moot point about how the Adept would be using powers, the Infiltrator should be doing the same.

Snipers have no Crowd Control? Really? I'm assuming you mean apart from the Infiltrators Disruptor Ammo (which when used against synthetic enemies can disable enemy weaponry), Cryo Ammo which can freeze enemies in their tracks, AI Hacking which is all about Crowd Controling synthetics and Incinerate which when used on undefended organic enemies spreads and causes the 'fire dance'? Sure...no Crowd Control whatsoever there...

Hell even the Soldier gets Crowd Control through Ammo Powers.

Infiltrators don't get Overload; and every class has CC capabilities, just like every class can use weapons - some just have better CC abilities while others have better weapons, so what?

Why should an Infiltrator (who's focused on pure sniping) has to go casting? Infiltrators are (part) combat specialists, they ought to be great snipers.

I see what you're saying Tony, but I hope that you see where I'm coming from. Yes, when it comes to Crowd Control the Infiltrator, Vangard or Soldier are in the same boat as the Adept. They all have to strip protections first. However there's still a bit of a disconnect in that those classes can also be doing OSOK's inbetween Crowd Controling. Can you think of a single ability that the Adept gets that can equal the OSOK of the combat classes? I can't. Sure the Adept can kill multiple enemies if you strip all of their defences and manage to get them grouped close enough together, but in the same time it takes to do all that the Infiltrator or Soldier could have OSOK'd the lot. Don't get much more Crowd Controled than dead.

Adepts are NOT in the same boat; they can slap Singularity on everybody regardless defenses - Infiltrators, Vanguards and Soldiers have NO CC abilities like that. Stasis ought to be in the original game and should have been part of the Adept power layout, which would have given the Adept two options instead of one (to CC protected enemies).

How can you OSOK and CC? You either kill enemy or you strip defenses and CC enemy - you can't do both. Adepts have CC powers which not only last multiple times longer, will be available more frequently (better CD) and can affect multiple enemies at once - Adepts are far better CC ers, as it should be.

Adepts can take out groups much faster than Soldiers, Vanguards and Infiltrators - instead of having to shoot every single enemy, they can detonate the lot killing em instantly.

[Bozorgmehr]

Guilebrush wrote...

I think herein lies the fundamental issue (flaw?) with the way certain powers were handled in ME1&2, they have a tendency to be binary. Basically once a power has the capability to effect something it does it's job too well. While on the flipside against something protected against it, nearly nothing happens...

I don't consider this to be flawed. Every (decent) game I ever played which involved some kind of tactical layer had powers, abilities, weapons etc which were effective in situation X and less effective / close to being useless in situation Y.

I do agree, that Singularity is a little behind the other signature powers b/c it doesn't (fully) work against a select few enemies in ME2. This isn't a bad thing per se, but making Singularity a little more usefull wouldn't hurt. Making it insta-cast, affect dogs, more reliable CC against enemies with defenses up would suffice imo.

Hopefully come ME3 they find a way to smoothen the discrepancy vs effective targets and less than ideal targets. I'm not saying that certain powers shouldn't be specialized but maybe tone down the level of specialization a bit. Coversely if what I've been gathering from the tidbits of information they've been releasing is correct, the increase in character build choice should help mitigate the impact of the dilemma anyway. The "problem," if you even want to call it that, is far more pronounced on companion characters than on Shepards anyway since they each have very shallow talent and weapon pools to draw from (I'm looking at you Jack and Jacob!). I'm pretty sure that the data and videos provided by Boz and other skilled Adept players have more than proven that the class and the power and weapon suite available to it, is in a very good place as is, in ME2.

It looks like ME3 solves the major issue by removing weapon restrictions. The only problem with Adepts (less so for the Sentinel and Engineer) is the lack of effective powers AND weapons during the early parts of ME2. The combatants start with good weaponry and rely on one power primarily, hence they're ready to rock almost straight away (ARush, Charge + SG, Cloak + SR). Their problem is the lack of development while leveling up; the combat classes get 'weaker' beyond level ~10. Adepts require some time to mature, they rely on multiple powers (instead of one) and having a powerful weapon also helps a lot - both things will be available around level 15 at which point the Adept has become incredibly powerful too - though I think some players have given up on the Adept before reaching this level (pity).

I hope in ME3 this will be better balanced, so no class can simply invest in one skill, max it asap and spam the same power over and over again throughout the game. A more gradually leveling system, which is focused on multiple powers, buffs, passives etc - for all classes - could do the trick. I really like the Global CD system, but it's kinda lame that a Vanguard can have Heavy Charge before the first mission; the only improvements through leveling up are a 1 second cooldown reduction for Charge, and an ammo power (Inferno) which can ignite enemies through defenses. Being at 80-90% of max power at the start of a game is not good imo. Vanguards should be able to Charge their way through, but it should take a bit longer before they're at their best.

[Guilebrush]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

It looks like ME3 solves the major issue by removing weapon restrictions. The only problem with Adepts (less so for the Sentinel and Engineer) is the lack of effective powers AND weapons during the early parts of ME2. The combatants start with good weaponry and rely on one power primarily, hence they're ready to rock almost straight away (ARush, Charge + SG, Cloak + SR). Their problem is the lack of development while leveling up; the combat classes get 'weaker' beyond level ~10. Adepts require some time to mature, they rely on multiple powers (instead of one) and having a powerful weapon also helps a lot - both things will be available around level 15 at which point the Adept has become incredibly powerful too - though I think some players have given up on the Adept before reaching this level (pity).

I hope in ME3 this will be better balanced, so no class can simply invest in one skill, max it asap and spam the same power over and over again throughout the game. A more gradually leveling system, which is focused on multiple powers, buffs, passives etc - for all classes - could do the trick. I really like the Global CD system, but it's kinda lame that a Vanguard can have Heavy Charge before the first mission; the only improvements through leveling up are a 1 second cooldown reduction for Charge, and an ammo power (Inferno) which can ignite enemies through defenses. Being at 80-90% of max power at the start of a game is not good imo. Vanguards should be able to Charge their way through, but it should take a bit longer before they're at their best.

This is a great point. You're right that with certain classes the gains you experience are so marginal by the time you finish the 2nd recruitment mission or so, with only the collector's ship bonus weapon being having a truly noticeable impact on your power level (especially true with Vanguards and Soldiers not abusing Mattocks).

What I also find rather strange is the fact that many people, myself included, dismiss or rather have very narrow viewpoints on certain biotic powers due to their inherent limitations yet we don't apply the same level of scrutiny to other aspects of the game. I'm specifically getting at weapons and their inherent limitations here. While layers of defense for the most part matter very little to weapons, sure some function better against certain types of defenses but you never find yourself going: "that guy has shields I guess I wont use the Widow on him;" they are hit just as hard or harder as biotic powers in other ways, yet people readily accept that. You don't see anyone going "why can't Sniper Rifles function super well in CQC?" or "I hate shotguns cause they suck at long distances!" Realistically speaking aren't these limitations just as crippling as certain powers not being ideal against certain defenses, just that maybe the workaround takes a different approach, one that we're more used to?

I dunno maybe I'm just overthinking things here. What I do know is that this thread has gotten me to try out power combinations I may have taken for granted in the past, see how effective they can be in some situations (LotSB) and encouraged me to try out an Adept sometime in the future on Insanity. Thanks for that.

[NackterGolfer]

quite interesting read so far. playing a new adept on insanity at the moment, I too feel it lacks something. I don't quite have a name for it, so I call it 'oooomph!'

To points mentioned earlier: 
- If biotics worked through defenses it would be overpowered. I think that is also the general consensus.
- Almost every class CAN play as a one-trick pony, which is backed by the general cooldown. Exceptions are Engineer (although maybe you could by just dronespamming?) and Adept in my opinion. But Engineer has such a variety of skills, which I think the Adept has not. It's maybe me, for I am not very good at biotics.
- The dilemma is that almost all biotics do the same: applying force to an unprotected enemy. So basically Pull, Throw and Singularity do the same: CC. I know there is a difference, while Singularity can block paths, and works more like a trap and Pull has a lesser cooldown, but the difference is not that much. Throw is useful to shove enemies off ledges or so, but you can also just pull/singularitate them and wait for squadmates to finish.
- And even if you can finish an insanity-playthrough, I don't feel the same 'ooomph!' as with a vanguard, soldier. Or the satisfaction of a OSOK chain with the infiltrator, or cryo-blasted krogans shattering. Again this could be my playstyle or my lack of experience.

The way out of this dilemma cannot be that biotics work through defenses. It could be achieved, by changing biotic skills, which I wouldn't do.
So my idea is this: Like in the Wasea fight (Recruiting Samara) an adept should be able to pull objects from the environment and throw them to the enemy with a bit more devastating effect than Wasea of course. Or letting objects fall down on enemies etc.
Generally speaking a physical force based class should be able to interact with the environment more. However this may be hard to realize, but it would depthen the Adept class much more than making biotics work though defenses.


apologies for wall of text.

[Dave666]

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...

[quote]Dave666 wrote...

Precisely.  If its not fair to add those same restrictions to the gun-centric classes, then by definition its unfair to give them to power-centric ones.  If Infiltrators could only get OSOK headshots on enemies if they were on health (i.e. you had to strip defences first).  Or Vangards could only Charge enemies on Health then I wouldn't be asking for equality, now would I?[/quote]

What restrictions? Everyone can one-shot enemies if they really want to - weapons one-shot, not powers. Cloak, Charge and ARush don't kill enemies; weapons do, weapons which can be used by everyone. The combat classes cannot OSOK using HP, SMG or AR - like Adepts; and since there will be no more weapon restrictions in ME3, Adepts can use stuff like the Claymore and Widow too - problem solved.[/quote]

What restrictions?  Seriously?  The very core of the Adept is using abilities on enemies, which you can't do effectively until you strip defences.  Thats a restriction.  The core of the Vangard is Charging enemies.  Do defences prevent Charging?  The Core of the Infiltrator is sniping.  Do defences prevent this?  The core of the Soldier is gun use.  Do protections prevent this?

In ME:2 only three classes can OSOK enemies, Soldier, Infiltrator and Vangard.  The other three cannot, they simply don't have the weapons for it and even if they did have the weapons the lack of passives relating to guns would probably mean that they still couldn't OSOK, they just wouldn't do enough damage and the enemy would still be alive and shooting at you.

[quote]
Easier to use is debateable when you're arching powers around corners or over cover and using multiple powers at a time. Seems much easier to me to just point a cross hair at an enemy and hold down a trigger.[/quote]

Then why complain about biotics if you can tear the enemy apart with weapons so easily?[/quote]

My issue is simply that guns are too powerful compared to abilities.  Why use an ability when I know that a gun will finish them off faster?

[quote]
Infiltrator gets Overload and Incinerate for Shield and Armour stripping so thats a moot point about how the Adept would be using powers, the Infiltrator should be doing the same.

Snipers have no Crowd Control? Really? I'm assuming you mean apart from the Infiltrators Disruptor Ammo (which when used against synthetic enemies can disable enemy weaponry), Cryo Ammo which can freeze enemies in their tracks, AI Hacking which is all about Crowd Controling synthetics and Incinerate which when used on undefended organic enemies spreads and causes the 'fire dance'? Sure...no Crowd Control whatsoever there...

Hell even the Soldier gets Crowd Control through Ammo Powers.
[/quote]

Infiltrators don't get Overload; and every class has CC capabilities, just like every class can use weapons - some just have better CC abilities while others have better weapons, so what?

Why should an Infiltrator (who's focused on pure sniping) has to go casting? Infiltrators are (part) combat specialists, they ought to be great snipers. [/quote]

Yeah, I cocked up with remembering that part about Overload I was thinking of Disruptor Ammo (basically I was thinking of the shield stripping power).
Infiltrators are (part) combat specialists and (part) tech specialists they should be sniping certainly but they should also be using tech abilities also, or why give them tech abilities?
[quote]
[quote]
I see what you're saying Tony, but I hope that you see where I'm coming from. Yes, when it comes to Crowd Control the Infiltrator, Vangard or Soldier are in the same boat as the Adept. They all have to strip protections first. However there's still a bit of a disconnect in that those classes can also be doing OSOK's inbetween Crowd Controling. Can you think of a single ability that the Adept gets that can equal the OSOK of the combat classes? I can't. Sure the Adept can kill multiple enemies if you strip all of their defences and manage to get them grouped close enough together, but in the same time it takes to do all that the Infiltrator or Soldier could have OSOK'd the lot. Don't get much more Crowd Controled than dead.[/quote]

Adepts are NOT in the same boat; they can slap Singularity on everybody regardless defenses - Infiltrators, Vanguards and Soldiers have NO CC abilities like that. Stasis ought to be in the original game and should have been part of the Adept power layout, which would have given the Adept two options instead of one (to CC protected enemies).

How can you OSOK and CC? You either kill enemy or you strip defenses and CC enemy - you can't do both. Adepts have CC powers which not only last multiple times longer, will be available more frequently (better CD) and can affect multiple enemies at once - Adepts are far better CC ers, as it should be.

Adepts can take out groups much faster than Soldiers, Vanguards and Infiltrators - instead of having to shoot every single enemy, they can detonate the lot killing em instantly.[/quote]

Adepts have Singularity?  Woop de doo! It doesn't even work on some enemies!
How can you OSOK and CC?  Ever thought of switching weapons?  Would anyone try to cc with a Widow?  Of course not. You'd switch to an SMG or AR for that part.

Adepts can only take out groups if you can get them grouped close enough to get caught in the blast, for the three OSOK classes distance doesn't matter, especially for the Widow users, you just line up the next shot and fire.

Modifié par Dave666, 20 mai 2011 - 03:20 .

[Sparrow44]

Dave666 wrote...

Adepts have Singularity?  Woop de doo! It doesn't even work on some enemies!
How can you OSOK and CC?  Ever thought of switching weapons?  Would anyone try to cc with a Widow?  Of course not. You'd switch to an SMG or AR for that part.

Adepts can only take out groups if you can get them grouped close enough to get caught in the blast, for the three OSOK classes distance doesn't matter, especially for the Widow users, you just line up the next shot and fire.

Dave, I understand where you are coming from when comparing the Adept to other classes like the Infiltrator, and while I agree that one of the Adept's strengths is getting enemies grouped together ready to nuke them and it doesn't always happen that often they can still be deadly against singular targets where Pull, Throw and even a Singularity can still disable an enemy.

Going back to the Adept's capability of getting targets grouped together I think this is a main issue of Singularity and it's radius. In ME1 disregarding it's ability to affect most if not all targets it had up to a massive surface radius of something like 8-9 meters; capable of pulling in EVERYTHING.

ME2's had in comparison a measly 1.50/1.75 meters to start off with and even Wide S'larity which was 3 meters wasn't nearly as useful as Heavy simply because without Heavy it couldn't hold that many protected enemies all at once which really messed up it's higher potential of being a cool power.

What I'm getting to is that I agree with some of your thoughts as well as agreeing with others' opinions such as Bozorgmehr, I think at the very least Singularity in ME3 should start of with at least 3 meters, and with a maximum evolution radius of somewhere around 5 or 6 meters and also being able to much much more enemies in the vortex.

As long as Singularity isn't the massievly overpowered (super massive blackhole, Muse reference ftw :happy:) ability it was in ME1 then I think the ME3 Adept is capable of kicking more ass than it did in ME2 AND ME1.

[dbndzb]

I hope all this complaining doesn't get us biotics that work through protections. I just finished an insanity run with my adept (first go) and I very nearly never die. If, instead of thinking "man, I can't lift this guy up yet, he still has armor... Better shoot," you think "hold still, so I can shoot you," the biotic changes dramatically. I use singularity almost incessantly. It stops most enemies in their tracks; they shoot very little, and can't get near you. Sounds like an easy kill to me.

Also, once you've managed to strip their defenses, they're as good as dead. A red health bar means I can pull or singularity him into uselessness. That's one enemy out of the fight BEFORE he's dead. I think saying the adept is gimped just means it's not being played correctly. In fact, sometimes the class is too easy. I only died twice on the collector mission, and maybe once every other loyalty mission.

[Dave666]

Sparroww wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Adepts have Singularity?  Woop de doo! It doesn't even work on some enemies!
How can you OSOK and CC?  Ever thought of switching weapons?  Would anyone try to cc with a Widow?  Of course not. You'd switch to an SMG or AR for that part.

Adepts can only take out groups if you can get them grouped close enough to get caught in the blast, for the three OSOK classes distance doesn't matter, especially for the Widow users, you just line up the next shot and fire.

Dave, I understand where you are coming from when comparing the Adept to other classes like the Infiltrator, and while I agree that one of the Adept's strengths is getting enemies grouped together ready to nuke them and it doesn't always happen that often they can still be deadly against singular targets where Pull, Throw and even a Singularity can still disable an enemy.

Going back to the Adept's capability of getting targets grouped together I think this is a main issue of Singularity and it's radius. In ME1 disregarding it's ability to affect most if not all targets it had up to a massive surface radius of something like 8-9 meters; capable of pulling in EVERYTHING.

ME2's had in comparison a measly 1.50/1.75 meters to start off with and even Wide S'larity which was 3 meters wasn't nearly as useful as Heavy simply because without Heavy it couldn't hold that many protected enemies all at once which really messed up it's higher potential of being a cool power.

What I'm getting to is that I agree with some of your thoughts as well as agreeing with others' opinions such as Bozorgmehr, I think at the very least Singularity in ME3 should start of with at least 3 meters, and with a maximum evolution radius of somewhere around 5 or 6 meters and also being able to much much more enemies in the vortex.

As long as Singularity isn't the massievly overpowered (super massive blackhole, Muse reference ftw :happy:) ability it was in ME1 then I think the ME3 Adept is capable of kicking more ass than it did in ME2 AND ME1.

Yeah, no problem.  The reason why I often use simple examples for comparison is that I've been (mentally) inactive for a long time and my debating skills leave a bit to be desired at times.  Sometimes I just can't think of a good way to say what I want to say and end up using less than stellar examples.

One of the simple changes for ME:3 that I would make if given the choice would be to re-introduce Lift (vertical movement only) and change Pull to the opposite of Throw.  This would alow the Adept to move enemies around the field at will and help get enemies grouped together.

For Singularity I agree the radius needs to be larger (not necessarily ME:1 size, but definately larger than ME:2).  Personally I hope that they remove the whole x enemies before dispel thing and simply have a duration time.

[MELTOR13]

The CC and group-killing abilities of an Adept are pretty much unmatched (Engineer might match them at CC, Sentinel might match them at group-killing). If you think an Infiltrator can OSOK three mooks before an Adept could Overload->Pull->Warp the whole group, you are delirious. Teammates Overload/Pull, Adept warps, goodbye group. That takes about 3 seconds. It takes an Infiltrator 3 seconds to reload the Widow twice.

[Dave666]

MELTOR13 wrote...

The CC and group-killing abilities of an Adept are pretty much unmatched (Engineer might match them at CC, Sentinel might match them at group-killing). If you think an Infiltrator can OSOK three mooks before an Adept could Overload->Pull->Warp the whole group, you are delirious. Teammates Overload/Pull, Adept warps, goodbye group. That takes about 3 seconds. It takes an Infiltrator 3 seconds to reload the Widow twice.

I understand what you're saying but we both know that its very situational at best.  If you can get enemies grouped close enough together to be caught in a warp explosion (which will usually just strip the protections of his friends and throw them apart), then well done, you've managed to kill one enemy.  You now need to use another pull on the two that survived (while hoping that they're still close enough to both get caught in a Pull's radius) and now you need to throw another warp for another explosion to finish them off.

You tell me, in that time could an Infiltrator have gotten three head stots?