962 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

kstarler wrote...

I don't want to get too far off topic, so what I'll say is that it is always the player's choice what difficulty they play on and who they want to bring with them. Which is as it should be. On Normal, one should be able to go through the game with any sqaud combination and any powers, and beat the game. Maybe not dominate it, but certainly beat it. But to dominate as an adept, it really does help to do some planning ahead and bring squadmates whose powers compliment Shepards.

with 6 classes, why is the adept the only class that needs correct squad mates? if the adept is supposed to be the best at taking out enemies without the use of weapons, then why do i need squad mates at all?

JaegerBane wrote...

I
agree the argument about bringing the right squadmates is on unsteady
ground - ultimately, it becomes a question of whether you expect to solo
the game. This is a squad based game nonetheless, so it's not
surprising that there would be some expectation to rely on squadmates.

'Course,
this inevitably begs the question why some classes have to depend on
squadmates and why some don't. That is the real issue, but it's not
strictly relevant to the Adept.

Don't forget that the Adept is
clearly designed to be the Thinking Man's class. While it benefits from
being played agressively, it's fairly obvious the developers intended it
to be used by someone wanting an altogether more tactical,
'chessmaster'-style game. The argument stands that someone who revels in
playing this class would also be someone who'd approach every mission
with a plan and considered squad rather than a million bullets and an
itchy trigger-finger.

your first point goes along with my first comment in this post, but i dont think everyones perception of each class is exactly the same. i dont think theres much thinking going on with the adept when your choices are singularity, or singularity. i think the engineer is the thinking mans class.

on higher difficulties, ONLY adepts NEED specific squad mates........ why?

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i frickin hate this argument. i really do. to me theres obviouse reasons why. tali and legion take 15 hours to recruit, i dont have squadmates on kasumis mission, i cant use squad mates abilites or weapons nearly as much as i can if shepard had them....... i understand squad mates are there to help out, but i dont understand how you can include them in an argument about what shepard can do. im not looking for a guide on how to respec or what squad mates would work the best on each mission.

Perhaps the Tali & Legion example wasn't the best, but you'll be playing for 10 (out of 15) hours before you can recruit them anyway. You can still play all Geth missions with one or both in your squad.

JaegerBane wrote...

I agree the argument about bringing the right squadmates is on unsteady ground - ultimately, it becomes a question of whether you expect to solo the game. This is a squad based game nonetheless, so it's not surprising that there would be some expectation to rely on squadmates.

'Course, this inevitably begs the question why some classes have to depend on squadmates and why some
don't. That is the real issue, but it's not strictly relevant to the Adept.

Exactly, but you can reverse the argument. Instead of labeling the Adept class ill designed just because it depends more on squadmates than some other classes; you could argue that the other classes are ill designed because squadmates are not needed at all. It is a squad based game after all. It makes sense teammates contribute something to your squad.

kstarler wrote...

On Normal, one should be able to go through the game with any sqaud combination and any powers, and beat the game. Maybe not dominate it, but certainly beat it. But to dominate as an adept, it really does help to do some planning ahead and bring squadmates whose powers compliment Shepards.

Yes, and what's wrong with some thinking before battle:

"Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be defeated. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant of both your enemy and yourself, you are sure to be defeated in every battle" Sun Tzu - The Art of War

JaegerBane wrote...

Don't forget that the Adept is clearly designed to be the Thinking Man's class. While it benefits from being
played agressively, it's fairly obvious the developers intended it to be used by someone wanting an altogether more tactical, 'chessmaster'-style game. The argument stands that someone who revels in playing this class would also be someone who'd approach every mission with a plan and considered squad rather than a million bullets and an itchy trigger-finger.

Well said, but you're a genius, eh?

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:59 .

[JaegerBane]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
your first point goes along with my first comment in this post, but i dont think everyones perception of each class is exactly the same. i dont think theres much thinking going on with the adept when your choices are singularity, or singularity. i think the engineer is the thinking mans class.

Well, according to this, I think it's fairly clear that the Adept was intended to function as a character that plays outside the box. Plenty of talk about tactical play, combos and environmental exploitation and not much about pew-pew-pew.

Obviously, player perceptions could be different.... but if they choose to ignore what the devs clearly intended the class to be, any disappointment they have is to a certain extent, self-inflicted.

As for choices... I frankly don't recognise the idea of Singularity being your only choice to make sense with the way the Adept plays. Singularity is one power. The Adept, more so than any class, depends on using many of it's powers in tandem.

on higher difficulties, ONLY adepts NEED specific squad mates........ why?

Because the higher difficulty levels weren't implemented particularly well. Not the Adept's fault.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:58 .

[kstarler]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

with 6 classes, why is the adept the only class that needs correct squad mates? if the adept is supposed to be the best at taking out enemies without the use of weapons, then why do i need squad mates at all?

It's not, but this thread is about the power of the adept, so that is why I referenced it. To dominate as other classes, it also helps immensely to have the right squad powers. But if you want to talk about class balance, that's for a different thread.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i frickin hate this argument. i really do. to me theres obviouse reasons why. tali and legion take 15 hours to recruit, i dont have squadmates on kasumis mission, i cant use squad mates abilites or weapons nearly as much as i can if shepard had them....... i understand squad mates are there to help out, but i dont understand how you can include them in an argument about what shepard can do. im not looking for a guide on how to respec or what squad mates would work the best on each mission.

Perhaps the Tali & Legion example wasn't the best, but you'll be playing for 10 (out of 15) hours before you can recruit them anyway. You can still play all Geth missions with one or both in your squad.

that statement only benefits my arguemnt. if i own a guide, or played the game more then once, sure. its not exactly as easy as you might think to know the exact enemies youll face unless youve prepared yourself more then the average player. you want me to postpone half the game so i can play my adept the way its supposed to be played?


that puke face makes me laugh. i think im gonna make it my "chris preistly" call sign.

[kstarler]

Honestly, I think you're just looking for things to gripe about. I doubt there are more than 10% of people who have felt that on Casual or Normal the adept is still not powerful enough to complete the game without a guide or playing through as another class first. I would be willing to bet that I could beat the game on Normal without ever firing a shot as an adept, and as I stated before, I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of folks that play only at Insanity difficulty. And as an adept, even if you got the changes you've asked for here and elsewhere, you still wouldn't have combat drones, overload, or incinerate as class abilities, unless you went to a system like the Oblivion system that you hate.

Modifié par kstarler, 24 octobre 2010 - 09:15 .

[JaegerBane]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I agree the argument about bringing the right squadmates is on unsteady ground - ultimately, it becomes a question of whether you expect to solo the game. This is a squad based game nonetheless, so it's not surprising that there would be some expectation to rely on squadmates.

'Course, this inevitably begs the question why some classes have to depend on squadmates and why some
don't. That is the real issue, but it's not strictly relevant to the Adept.

Exactly, but you can reverse the argument. Instead of labeling the Adept class ill designed just because it depends more on squadmates than some other classes; you could argue that the other classes are ill designed because squadmates are not needed at all. It is a squad based game after all. It makes sense teammates contribute something to your squad.

Uh... well, I suppose you could reverse the argument... but only insofar as changing the definition of what 'ill-designed' was intended to be in the context of the original point. I wouldn't ordinarily consider a class to be badly designed on the basis that it can play on it's own. Normally the ability to play without squadmates in a squad-based game is a mark of their potency, not their weakness...

Well said, but you're a genius, eh?

Meh

Modifié par JaegerBane, 24 octobre 2010 - 09:29 .

[Bozorgmehr]

JaegerBane wrote...


Uh... well, I suppose you could reverse the argument... but only insofar as changing the definition of what 'ill-designed' was intended to be in the context of the original point. I wouldn't ordinarily consider a class to be badly designed on the basis that it can play on it's own. Normally the ability to play without squadmates in a squad-based game is a mark of their potency, not their weakness...

I think it's fair to say that a squad based game that doesn't require some teamwork not even on the hardest difficulty for some classes isn't well designed. A well designed object doesn't have useless parts; every part has some purpose, if not; its best to remove it altogether.

[kstarler]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I think it's fair to say that a squad based game that doesn't require some teamwork not even on the hardest difficulty for some classes isn't well designed. A well designed object doesn't have useless parts; every part has some purpose, if not; its best to remove it altogether.

But what if the squad AI just got Miranda killed for the fourth time this mission because she positioned herself on top of the cover, and I'm out of medi-gel?! And now I'm screwed because I brought Jacob along for "the priiize" but he sucks against geth, and besides, I haven't recruited anyone else before playing Overlord?!? And I'm an adept so I don't have anything useful against shields?!?!? My head may explode just thinking about it!

Seriously though, I think all classes should (and I feel that in ME2 as of now, they do) have the ability to solo for a short time, though you'll always have classes that can do it better than others.

[ryoldschool]

The squad element is critical to how this game is played. It adds a whole lot of complexity. As far as Overlord goes, I always wait and play that to just before the Reaper IFF. Always take either squad cryo, or have Zaeed with me for squad disruptor. Don't know what this is doing in an Adept strategy topic.

[kstarler]

ryoldschool wrote...

The squad element is critical to how this game is played. It adds a whole lot of complexity. As far as Overlord goes, I always wait and play that to just before the Reaper IFF. Always take either squad cryo, or have Zaeed with me for squad disruptor. Don't know what this is doing in an Adept strategy topic.

Not sure if that's in response to my post, but I was attempting to make a satirical argument against those who think it is too much to bring a complimentary squad. I tend to play by the seven P's; Prior Planning and Preparation Prevent ****** Poor Performance. And just because I don't always do it doesn't mean I shouldn't or can't. I'm with you. I normally save Overlord for after I have Legion, because I like the extra dialogue and because he tends to be quite useful throughout the whole mission. Plus, I like to hear his post-suicide mission dialogue options.

[The Spamming Troll]

kstarler wrote...

Honestly, I think you're just looking for things to gripe about. I doubt there are more than 10% of people who have felt that on Casual or Normal the adept is still not powerful enough to complete the game without a guide or playing through as another class first. I would be willing to bet that I could beat the game on Normal without ever firing a shot as an adept, and as I stated before, I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of folks that play only at Insanity difficulty. And as an adept, even if you got the changes you've asked for here and elsewhere, you still wouldn't have combat drones, overload, or incinerate as class abilities, unless you went to a system like the Oblivion system that you hate.

im talking about insanity here. ofcorse easy difficulties are easy.

i dont want the removal of classes. i want classes to have more options then what the preset abilites that are forced upon MY adept are.

shouldnt it be MY adept, not biowares???

[Bozorgmehr]

kstarler wrote...

But what if the squad AI just got Miranda killed for the fourth time this mission because she positioned herself on top of the cover, and I'm out of medi-gel?! And now I'm screwed because I brought Jacob along for "the priiize" but he sucks against geth, and besides, I haven't recruited anyone else before playing Overlord?!? And I'm an adept so I don't have anything useful against shields?!?!? My head may explode just thinking about it!

Seriously though, I think all classes should (and I feel that in ME2 as of now, they do) have the ability to solo for a short time, though you'll always have classes that can do it better than others.

I completed ME2 solo with an Adept without Heavy Weapons. But that wasn't my point. In the end it comes down to what you consider to be the benchmark. If you label Soldiers; and compare Adepts you can conclude that Soldiers are capable to handle every situation whether they've got help or not. While Adept's performance is hugely influenced, without squadmates.

If you add squadmates, they should have purpose. They do for Adepts, they don't for Soldiers. Either way you look at it; there's a flaw in the design. Whether to call Adepts ill designed because they rely on squadmates; or Soldiers because they would be fine if ME2 wasn't a squad based game, comes down to personal preference.

But I'm with Ryoldschool; we're getting way off topic.

BTW the Arc Projector is great against shields, Adepts can use it too.

[kstarler]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

kstarler wrote...

Honestly,
I think you're just looking for things to gripe about. I doubt there are more than 10% of people who have felt that on Casual or Normal the adept is still not powerful enough to complete the game without a guide or playing through as another class first. I would be willing to bet that I could beat the game on Normal without ever firing a shot as an adept, and as I stated before, I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of folks that play only at Insanity difficulty. And as an adept, even if you got the changes you've asked for here and elsewhere, you still wouldn't have combat drones, overload, or incinerate as class abilities, unless you went to a system like the Oblivion system that you
hate.

im talking about insanity here. ofcorse easy difficulties are easy.

i dont want the removal of classes. i want classes to have more options
then what the preset abilites that are forced upon MY adept are.

shouldnt it be MY adept, not biowares???

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought you posted a bit back in this very forum that you don't play adepts on Insanity, and that the base experience is balanced to Normal difficulty. Am I misremembering? It reads like you want a super adept that can do all things biotic, including use all the bonus powers in tandem, and never need a companion to boot. Or maybe I'm misreading here. Assuming I am not, the fact that you don't want to use companions, and you don't want to cheat to give yourself both Reave and Warp Ammo shouldn't mean that the whole class needs to be rebalanced so that Shepard can solo the entire game. Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree on how well the adept is balanced at higher difficulties, because I happen to think that it is well balanced to provide a decent challenge and a very rewarding gameplay experience on Hardcore/Insanity.

Edit: I hate the cut and paste errors on these forums.<_<

Modifié par kstarler, 24 octobre 2010 - 11:24 .

[kstarler]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

BTW the Arc Projector is great against shields, Adepts can use it too.

I've never really used the Avalanche, but is it better or worse against shields than the Arc Projector?

Edit: My instinct is that it is worse, because it has an AoE, where the Arc Projector is a chained effect.

Modifié par kstarler, 24 octobre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Bozorgmehr]

kstarler wrote...

I've never really used the Avalanche, but is it better or worse against shields than the Arc Projector?

Edit: My instinct is that it is worse, because it has an AoE, where the Arc Projector is a chained effect.

Avalanche is great; extreme RoF; decent AoE; very good against defenses and targets will stay froozen for ever (basically). I've got a vid using the Avalanche here

[kstarler]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

kstarler wrote...

I've never really used the Avalanche, but is it better or worse against shields than the Arc Projector?

Edit: My instinct is that it is worse, because it has an AoE, where the Arc Projector is a chained effect.

Avalanche is great; extreme RoF; decent AoE; very good against defenses and targets will stay froozen for ever (basically). I've got a vid using the Avalanche here

Thanks for the link! I've never been a huge fan of the Arc Projector because of the delayed fire (on higher difficulties, it seems hard to get a clear chance to use it without putting yourself in jeopardy.) I'll give the Avalanche a try on my adept this time through.

[The Spamming Troll]

kstarler wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

kstarler wrote...

Honestly,
I think you're just looking for things to gripe about. I doubt there are more than 10% of people who have felt that on Casual or Normal the adept is still not powerful enough to complete the game without a guide or playing through as another class first. I would be willing to bet that I could beat the game on Normal without ever firing a shot as an adept, and as I stated before, I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of folks that play only at Insanity difficulty. And as an adept, even if you got the changes you've asked for here and elsewhere, you still wouldn't have combat drones, overload, or incinerate as class abilities, unless you went to a system like the Oblivion system that you
hate.

im talking about insanity here. ofcorse easy difficulties are easy.

i dont want the removal of classes. i want classes to have more options
then what the preset abilites that are forced upon MY adept are.

shouldnt it be MY adept, not biowares???

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought you posted a bit back in this very forum that you don't play adepts on Insanity, and that the base experience is balanced to Normal difficulty. Am I misremembering? It reads like you want a super adept that can do all things biotic, including use all the bonus powers in tandem, and never need a companion to boot. Or maybe I'm misreading here. Assuming I am not, the fact that you don't want to use companions, and you don't want to cheat to give yourself both Reave and Warp Ammo shouldn't mean that the whole class needs to be rebalanced so that Shepard can solo the entire game. Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree on how well the adept is balanced at higher difficulties, because I happen to think that it is well balanced to provide a decent challenge and a very rewarding gameplay experience on Hardcore/Insanity.

Edit: I hate the cut and paste errors on these forums.<_<

well i can and have played adepts on insanity, untill i found enemy protections to be gimping my adept play on insanity that is. but no, i dont want an adept with every biotic ability maxed with no cooldowns and all the weapons and energy drain too or whatever it is your thinking, that im thinking. i like having companions in ME, just like i do for fallout3. but i dont like enemy protections preventing my adept from being a CCer, and i dont like bringing specific squadmates to make my adept play like an adept. i dont want to solo anything. im not complaining about the challenge i face when i play insanity, im complainging about insanity taking away the very reason why im playing an adept. insanity for an adept means using your weapons more often, which isnt what the adept should be relying on.

enemy protections thats only implementation was to stop shepard from using their abilities is a cheap way to challenge me. i dont make video games or even have a clue as to how complicated those decisions can be, but by bioware adding something that only takes away from my gaming experience, is a really bad idea.

and yes i do think an adept should be able to do all things biotic! isnt that exactly what an adept should be capable of?

itd be like making insanity for a soldier meaning the soldier can only use the pistol and SMG.

go packers!

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 25 octobre 2010 - 12:23 .

[The Spamming Troll]

there should be a separate forum that is specific to insanity discussions. adepts dont play the same on veteran and hardcore, and most of my thoughts revolve around the higher difficulty settings and you cant argue about an adept being awesome on veteran like you can with insanity.

[kstarler]

Out of curiosity, how do the readers here level their adepts? I tend to follow the route of maxing my main skill first, then my support skill, then other skills (maxing one if I'm going to evolve it before moving on to the next). I've thought about dumping a couple of points into each skill as an adept to give more options, but on hardcore/insanity, I worry that none of the skills will be very effective with that method.

[Bozorgmehr]

kstarler wrote...

Out of curiosity, how do the readers here level their adepts? I tend to follow the route of maxing my main skill first, then my support skill, then other skills (maxing one if I'm going to evolve it before moving on to the next). I've thought about dumping a couple of points into each skill as an adept to give more options, but on hardcore/insanity, I worry that none of the skills will be very effective with that method.

I unlock Pull and Throw first and put one point in both; everything else goes into passive (Bastion); after that I max Singularity and ensure Warp can strip defenses in one go (rank 3 is usually enough). At this point you're going or already been to Horizon and you can get all biotic upgrades fast and easy, get the bonus weapon on CS and you're pretty much unstopable.

Early game, when you don't have biotic upgrades (duration being the most important factor), your powers are weak and won't last long. My experience indicates better cooldown and (with Bastion) longer duration make biotics more effective than an extra rank or increased power damage. I still don't know why there isn't armor or gear boosting duration a little - would make life somewhat easier for Adepts (esspecially early on).

[Sailears]

kstarler wrote...

Out of curiosity, how do the readers here level their adepts? I tend to follow the route of maxing my main skill first, then my support skill, then other skills (maxing one if I'm going to evolve it before moving on to the next). I've thought about dumping a couple of points into each skill as an adept to give more options, but on hardcore/insanity, I worry that none of the skills will be very effective with that method.

Haven't played from scratch in a while - I usually edit an endgame save for class and ME1 decisions with the save editor, and play NG+.

In any case, importing from ME1 means I could max out the passive fairly quickly. I do this not just for the adept, but for all classes, mainly for paragon/renegade points (that's if I want to play legitimately, and not just give free points to the character). Combat is still manageable, though slow.

After that, I go for warp - get it to level 2; back to singularity get a few more points in there. If there's a spare point, that goes straight in pull (1 point wonder).

That's really the important bit. Then I just level as I feel like it - I like to max singularity next followed by warp, both to heavy. Throw is low on my priority list - it's only really necessary on things like fenris mechs and klixen which can be a problem if you use pull.


Anyway, as I said I haven't done that in a while (few months). I've had my fill of levelling through the game, and NG+ allows for me to enjoy the combat a lot more.
And yes, I go as far as giving myself the necessary upgrades (excluding automatic mission rewards, the AR damage and heavy weapon ammo on Zaeed's loyalty, and LotSB delivery terminal upgrades), after acquiring Mordin on NG+ - hey, I don't want to be forced into doing the missions in a specific order to benefit from upgrades. I would like to enjoy the main plot missions in the same way as post endgame N7 missions.

[sinosleep]

I prefer maxing singularity first, then passive, then whatever else.

[The Spamming Troll]

sinosleep wrote...

I prefer maxing singularity first, then passive, then whatever else.

same here.

i put one point in warp and stasis before i start filling out singularity tho. my last 11 points never really get put into a skill becasue ill never use throw, shockwave, or pull anyways.

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

I prefer maxing singularity first, then passive, then whatever else.

same here.

i put one point in warp and stasis before i start filling out singularity tho. my last 11 points never really get put into a skill becasue ill never use throw, shockwave, or pull anyways.

I can understand why you don't invest in Shockwave, but Pull and Throw are among the best rank 1 powers available. Just two tiny skill points gives you much more flexibility; remember you can use Pull and Throw; or Warp (same cooldown).

One warp explosion won't kill powerful enemies, Krogan require 2 or 3 (depends on your level, upgrades and Warp); Vasir can take up to 10 consecutive warp detonations before dying. One (well targeted) Pull-Throw combo can kill them instantly (and it looks nice too; tossing stuff around)

If you don't use Pull and Throw it's kinda obvious you consider Adepts to be one-trick-ponies (you can only use Singularity and Warp if you ignore the other powers). Pull and Throw are not only fun to use, but very effective too.