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[hawat333]

Plot hole - Universe inconsistency



In ME1 it's carefully explained that exchanging body-liquids with alien species is lethally dangerous - except for the Asari.

In ME2 you can mount everything that moves. (except for the vorcha and krogan)

[cachx]

hawat333 wrote...

Plot hole - Universe inconsistency

In ME1 it's carefully explained that exchanging body-liquids with alien species is lethally dangerous - except for the Asari.
In ME2 you can mount everything that moves. (except for the vorcha and krogan)

Super safe space-condoms !

*Insert Naked Gun reference picture here*

[Ecael]

hawat333 wrote...

mount everything that moves. (except for the vorcha and krogan)

...Until ME3, that is.

[adam_grif]

There aren't many scientists like that today.

Au contraire, science journals are full to the brim of aspiring young scientists full of life trying to bring new ideas to the table. They subsequently get ****slapped by the peer review community when it becomes apparent that they missed something or made an obvious mistake. But there are plenty of optomistic ones.

And remember, science may set limits to knowledge, but should never set limits to imagination.

Pah, don't get so romantic. Science is just a process by which we find out how reality works.



There's something to be said for not letting dogma hold you back, but there comes a point when it's obvious that something is impossible and you should just let go. We don't force you too of course; some people still try to build perpetual motion machines, cold fusion, and do research on ESP (lol).

[CroGamer002]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Why do people discuss these awfully minor plotholes usally made for the benefit of the gameplay and they miss out the biggest thing.

They brought a guy back to life!

Am I the only person in the community who's actually realised that's completely impossible?!

Mass Effect 2 is Sci-Fi.
Deal with it.

[Ecael]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I swear I've seen a documentary in which Michio Kaku said, and I quote, "There is no law in physics that prevents time travel."

When he labels something as a class II physical impossibility, he means that it does not entirely violate the laws of physics, but he predicts it will require - at the very least - thousands of years of technological advancement to acquire the technology as well as harness the energy needed for it. That's assuming direct control humans survive that long, however.

LMAO!

I see what you mean, though. Makes sense.

I still think Earth will turn into Rakhana before we're able to travel outside our solar system...

You know, Ecael, we could discuss this at length, but it'd seriously take us off-topic.

In any case, the thing about space is that it's big. Like, really big. You might as well consider this to be its defining feature. It's a known fact that we've been wonderfully inventive over the last million or so years since we first came to be; if you look forward another hundred years, we may very well have active colonies scattered throughout our Solar System, but it can hardly get past this point. That is, traveling outside our system and to the stars is, let's not say science fiction, but extremely far-fetched by our current technological standards.

As a matter of fact, we do have the technology to take us to Mars today. What we don't have is the technology to make us thrive on Mars, under the extreme conditions and carbon-dioxide-dominated atmosphere. However, as I said above, in a few more decades, we will most likely have said technology, too. But not the technology to take us to the stars; as that would require what we call FTL, which itself is labeled as a number-one physical impossiblity by scientific convention.

Well, this is the anti-plothole thread, so anything to do with Mass Effect's science or story would apply, I guess.



It's not so much about technology but about resources and vested interest. The amount of money and materials to fund a colony on an uninhabitable planet such as Mars is more than any single country could afford. Even if they could, there would many people infuriated by the use of that money without solving all of the world's current problems first. No private corporation would fund it either, because there's nothing to gain from traveling to that planet.

Landing on Mars would be accomplished for the sake of landing on Mars, not for the advancement of the human race (that sounded very Cerberus for a moment...) - unless there's actual Prothean technology on Mars. Otherwise, we'll have to wait until we're able to effectively travel back and forth past our solar system to other habitable planets to make it worth the effort to get there.

[Veritasinpersonam]

Shepard was rebuilt with cybernetic enhancements allowing Shepard to mount everything that moves.

[Schneidend]

Space opera.



/thread

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well yeah, but that doesn't explain why all the pistols have clips with a never ending supply of bullets and that Chow Yun-Fat has a shotgun that can blow up cars.



Wait, or Space Opera. Never mind.

[Christmas Ape]

In ME1 it's carefully explained that exchanging body-liquids with alien species is lethally dangerous - except for the Asari.

Wait, where? I don't recall this at all, unless you're talking about the chirality issue and that's discussed in ME2. As to the others, krogan and salarian are egg-laying species (Okeer says clutch and he's the krogan scientist), drell are mildly toxic to humans, volus can't even share atmosphere with anyone, and nobody's even sure how to hell hanar genders apart.

All three of the cross-species romances in ME2 come with Solus brand warning labels.

[MaaZeus]

Christmas Ape wrote...

In ME1 it's carefully explained that exchanging body-liquids with alien species is lethally dangerous - except for the Asari.

Wait, where? I don't recall this at all, unless you're talking about the chirality issue and that's discussed in ME2. As to the others, krogan and salarian are egg-laying species (Okeer says clutch and he's the krogan scientist), drell are mildly toxic to humans, volus can't even share atmosphere with anyone, and nobody's even sure how to hell hanar genders apart.
All three of the cross-species romances in ME2 come with Solus brand warning labels.

Yup, even in ME1 this applied only with opposite chirality I think. And so far only opposite chirality aliens we know are Quarians and Turians which are (including their food) toxic to other species of other chirality. And mind you this applies to oral contact or eating or whatever. They arent lethal to touch or anything.

From what I understand saliva doesnt count or atleast is very mild, otherwise Shepard would have gotten allergic reaction after kissing with Tali. I guess this is because saliva is an enzyme with various purposes, including helping to melt food, and probaply doesnt differ much from humans. But in case of other body fluids, I think Mordins advice is quite clear when romancing Garrus...

[didymos1120]

Soverign 666 wrote...

Ok So someoen raised the point taht the council had patrols at every relay conecting the citadel to the terminous system so how did soverign and the geth get to the citadel don't you think one of the patrols would have tried to retreat or send communication to the citadel telling them they were under attack?

Possible Explanation: The geth fleet went from the termonious sytems to a diffrent area that wasent defended that conected to the citadel and attacked from there

Possible Explantion 2: Soverign was capable of ubliterating the fleet guarding the reley in seconds (Seems less likely)

I never understood why so many people got hung up on this.  It's simple: Sovereign is a Reaper.  You know: member of the race of sentient starships that built the entire mass relay network and knows where all of them are (barring the occasional unforseen displacement due to supernova shockfronts ).  This is in contrast to basically everyone else in the galaxy, none of whom have even the faintest idea as to how many relays there actually are in total, much less where they are, and who are generally very wary of activating those they do manage to discover.  In other words, the Citadel forces didn't have a hope in hell of stopping Sovereign and quite literally never saw either him or his Heretic Geth fleet coming. 

As an analogy, it's all well and good installing a massive steel front door with all sorts of giant deadbolts, biometric systems, cameras, alarms and round-the-clock, heavily armed security guards on each side, but it won't help much if someone can just hop the fence in the back yard and use the completely undefended secret door you didn't even know was there.

[Makkovar]

Sorry, I didn't have the will power to read through all the 10 sites of this topic but there are some thoughts, I hope I can bring something new with this post.

ME2 | 12. Why didn't Warden Kuril in Purgatory wait until Shepard and squad stepped INSIDE the cell before closing it on them?

ME1 | 15. If the Mako's jets only work for a few seconds, how does it get back to the Normandy without forcing the Normandy to land?

ME2 | 22. If the Disabled Collector Vessel was a trap by the Collectors, why would they leave behind a large cache of upgraded weapons for Shepard to pick from?

ME2 | 30. The Illusive Man said that an Alliance science team discovered the great rift on Klendagon, but it was a Cerberus team that traced the location of the Derelict Reaper. What happened to the Alliance science team?

ME2 | 38. Why did the Collector Base only have one ship to defend itself when the Base itself is the size of a planet?

12. Why WOULD Shepard step inside? What, was he supposed to think it's an elevator or something?

15. Maybe It can re-route power from other systems (weapons? They're kinda nessesary after you land in a hostile zone<_<) to make them work longer? I don't remember an explanation of why it only works for a few seconds, so...

22. Because Shepard is well armed anyways, and they did not predict in which point exactly will he come in? A pile of weapons from aducted colonists could just be a part of their show - cuz actually, do you expect a trap if your enemy leaves waepons behind him?
30. Hehehe... I believe you can imagine an answer...

38. It didn't, it also had those little drones with beam weapons. I guess you could expect more of them scattered around the debris field other then those that attacked Normandy. Though still having more then one ship would seem reasonable...


While we're at it, WHY didn't the reapers also get the Collectors' help when attacking the Citadel and before, while using Heretic Geth and indoctrinated organics instead? Was that supposed to be a back-up option? If so, how would abducting humans help the Reapers in getting to the Milky Way Galaxy and the Citadel?

Also, with their forces inside the galaxy gone, how will they get there in a time allowing Shepard to stop them (I mean, if they couldn't just fly in in FTL speed not using the Citadel Relay...)?

Most of all, why don't they just delay their plan for another hundred years, then come when Shepard's long gone and nobody believes in the Reapers' existance anymore?

Modifié par Makkovar, 15 juin 2010 - 04:42 .

[LorDC]

Makkovar wrote...
While we're at it, WHY didn't the reapers also get the Collectors' help when attacking the Citadel and before, while using Heretic Geth and indoctrinated organics instead? Was that supposed to be a back-up option?

It was discussed few pages back. Collectors have only one ship(that's most probable explanation to why it was only one ship defending their station). And one ship isn't huge addition to Geth fleet. It could have also been used in some another operation by that time. And it is always good to have some aces up your sleeve.

Makkovar wrote...
If so, how would abducting humans help the Reapers in getting to the Milky Way Galaxy and the Citadel? 

Also, with their forces inside the galaxy gone, how will they get there in a time allowing Shepard to stop them (I mean, if they couldn't just fly in in FTL speed not using the Citadel Relay...)?

Again it was discussed earlier. I believe that Collectors' activity had nothing to do with bringing Reapers back. They were just building Human Reaper. They may had some plans about him(or it?) but it wasn't about bringing Reapers back faster. Reapers just fly on their own.

Makkovar wrote...
Most of all, why don't they just delay their plan for another hundred years, then come when Shepard's long gone and nobody believes in the Reapers' existance anymore?

Do you remember what Protheans did within "another hundred years"? They manged to unlock secrets of Mass relays, built Conduit and hacked Keepers. In the end they managed not to stop but at least hinder cycle of destruction. Basically every second Reapers wait brings galaxy closer to their level. It may happen that by the time they come some crappy dreadnought could kill them with a few hits of main gun.

Modifié par LorDC, 15 juin 2010 - 05:09 .

[Makkovar]

LorDC wrote...

It was discussed few pages back. Collectors have only one ship(that's most probable explanation to why it was only one ship defending their station). And one ship isn't huge addition to Geth fleet. It could have also been used in some another operation by that time. And it is always good to have some aces up your sleeve.

Yeah but they certainly had the time to make more ships. And I can't see any reason why not to.

LorDC wrote...

Again it was discussed earlier. I believe that Collectors' activity had nothing to do with bringing Reapers back. They were just building Human Reaper. They may had some plans about him(or it?) but it wasn't about bringing Reapers back faster. Reapers just fly on their own.

Well the Human Reaper could play Sovereign's role in opening the Citadel Mass Relay. But still, that does not say how will the Reapers threat the galaxy in time for Shepard to react while it's gone (meaning in Mass Efect 3). From where they were they could see the whole galaxy, and if they could just fly in a thousand times faster then any ship in the Council Space then they wouldn't need the Citadel to be a mass relay.

Basically every second Reapers wait brings galaxy closer to their level. It may happen that by the time they come some crappy dreadnought could kill them with a few hits of main gun.

Very unlikely. Especially with the galaxy's government denying their existance even against evidence of it.

Modifié par Makkovar, 15 juin 2010 - 06:37 .

[LorDC]

Makkovar wrote...
Yeah but they certainly had the time to make more ships. And I can't see any reason why not to.

Reapers didn't know about Protheans' deeds until Sovereign tried to activate Citadel for the first time(before meeting with Saren). Yes they had time to build Collector fleet but they didn't think they need to. And bringing in single Collector vessel? Okay it gives you power of one cruiser but it uncovers the fact that Collectors work for Reapers. Same as using deep undercover agent in routine police operation just because you need one more man. Information is best weapon.

Makkovar wrote...
Well the Human Reaper could play Sovereign's role in opening the Citadel Mass Relay. But still, that does not say how will the Reapers threat the galaxy in time for Shepard to react. From where they were they could see the whole galaxy, and if they could just fly in a thousand times faster then any ship in the Council Space then they wouldn't need the Citadel to be a mass relay.

Sovereign with Geth fleet couldn't do it while having surprise opportunity. I don't think Single Human Reaper could do the trick. How it could even be finished, since Collectors don't have enough forces to target Earth to complete its construction?
And using Citadel as relay is not about getting here. It is about getting here very fast and right into our heart very suddenly. You should read Liddell Hart's works on war strategy. If you sum his works up it is:
1) direct attacks against an enemy firmly in position almost never work and should never be attempted(which is direct flying to us)
2) to defeat the enemy one must first upset his equilibrium, which is not accomplished by the main attack, but must be done before the main attack can succeed(which is striking through the Citadel).
Reapers tried to do 2nd but failed. Now they are gonna do 1st.

Makkovar wrote...
Very unlikely. Especially with the galaxy's government denying their existance even against evidence of it.

Read my previous post one more  time. You arguing not with me but with my image in you head. In that part I didn't write(actually on purpose since I foresaw this retort) anything about special anti-Reaper preparations. My point was about general technical progress. If Reapers will come hundred years later we may very well have enough power to destroy them with just our fleet.

[Makkovar]

LorDC wrote...

 Yes they had time to build Collector fleet but they didn't think they need to.

Alright, that makes for an explanation. One could think the Collectors did reproduce through these 50 thousand years, and were not all but those necessary for the station and ship to work spent for genetic experiments... Which would mean a huge fleet just waiting to destroy the Citadel.

Information is best weapon.

They didn't play that card well, did they?

Sovereign with Geth fleet couldn't do it while having surprise opportunity. I don't think Single Human Reaper could do the trick.

Thanks to Shepard, they were stripped of the surprise opportunity. They would've made it if not for the Alliance's arrival and Shepard's disabling Sovereign's shields.

Then again, the whole Alliance fleet could not get through those shields, so if the Human Reaper was to have them too, it could've poulled that out.

My point was about general technical progress. If Reapers will come hundred years later we may very well have enough power to destroy them with just our fleet.

And my point was that with other races' thousands of years of progress still not reaching the Reaper level, a mere hundred years would NOT make such a diference without special anti-Reaper preparations.
Neither did the Protheans. They just didn't hold from attempting to uncover the Keepers' and Mass Relays' secrets like the present Coucil races do.


Now, did you see any trace of possibilty of fighting during FTL travels? All the battles seem to be waged when at normal speed, and if the Reapers could get to the Citadel from the point they're at at the end of ME2 in a short time, They WOULD NOT be detected and so they WOULD still have the surprise advantage.

Modifié par Makkovar, 15 juin 2010 - 07:37 .

[Highdragonslayer]

How come the zerg swarm didn't come yet and kill everyone? As we all know nobody but Mr. T can survive the zerg swarm.

[LorDC]

Makkovar wrote...
They didn't play that card well, did they?

Well, you have to defeat them somehow. I hate metgaming and messing gameplay and lore reasons but still they had to make a mistake because their defeat is inevitable.

Makkovar wrote...
Thanks to Shepard, they were stripped of the surprise opportunity. They would've made it if not for the Alliance's arrival and Shepard's disabling Sovereign's shields.

Then again, the whole Alliance fleet could not get through those shields, so if the Human Reaper was to have them too, it could've poulled that out.

They don't have surprise advantage. They don't have fleet. And I seriously doubt that newly made Reaper is more powerful than old ones. So chances of success are lower than first time. I don't think Reapers are so stupid that they will try to do same thing twice.

Makkovar wrote...
And my point was that with other races' thousands of years of progress still not reaching the Reaper level, a mere hundred years would NOT make such a diference without special anti-Reaper preparations.
Neither did the Protheans. They just didn't hold from attempting to uncover the Keepers' and Mass Relays' secrets like the present Coucil races do.

For the previous thousands years there weren't any humans in general and Shepard in particular on galactic scene. And ME2 events show that Reapers treat them as serious opponents.

Makkovar wrote...
Now, did you see any trace of possibilty of fighting during FTL travels? All the battles seem to be waged when at normal speed, and if the Reapers could get to the Citadel from the point they're at at the end of ME2 in a short time, They WOULD NOT be detected and so they WOULD still have the surprise advantage.

Fighting at FTL speed? I never mentioned anything like that. And by the game lore any FTL travel makes ship visible. So they wont be completely undetected. And again they wont have advantage of controlling relay network and will need to resort to usual fighting which is fail just because of nature of it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

How come the zerg swarm didn't come yet and kill everyone? As we all know nobody but Mr. T can survive the zerg swarm.

Lies, only Kobe Bryant could survive the Zerg Swarm

[Makkovar]

LorDC wrote...

Well, you have to defeat them somehow. I hate metgaming and messing gameplay and lore reasons but still they had to make a mistake because their defeat is inevitable.

Not much of plot-hole covering there. Moving on.

They don't have surprise advantage. They don't have fleet. And I seriously doubt that newly made Reaper is more powerful than old ones. So chances of success are lower than first time. I don't think Reapers are so stupid that they will try to do same thing twice.

They've gotta try SOMETHING. This would pretty much be a suecide mission, but if the Reaper fleet get's there before the Human Reaper is destroyed even it could survive.

For the previous thousands years there weren't any humans in general and Shepard in particular on galactic scene.

No there weren't, so what? Shepard could only stop Saren and Sovereign because the Protheans were smart and because the becon they left was on a human colony. That was a shock for the Reapers, and humanity's a powerfull player on the galactic scene, but we wouldn't stand a chance against the whole Reaper fleet.

Fighting at FTL speed? I never mentioned anything like that. And by the game lore any FTL travel makes ship visible. So they wont be completely undetected. And again they wont have advantage of controlling relay network and will need to resort to usual fighting which is fail just because of nature of it.

They won't be completely undetected, but the speed they require to get there shortly would make detection only possible in the last moment. And they cannot fail in normal combat since they're just so advanced.

They can easily gain control of the relay network just after their arrival to the Milky Way.

[LorDC]

Makkovar wrote...
They've gotta try SOMETHING. This would pretty much be a suecide mission, but if the Reaper fleet get's there before the Human Reaper is destroyed even it could survive.

In "build Human Reaper and return all other Reapers back to galaxy" plan the real problem is first part of it, not second. How Collectors planned to harvest enough humans to finish building it?

Makkovar wrote...
No there weren't, so what? Shepard could only stop Saren and Sovereign because the Protheans were smart and because the becon they left was on a human colony. That was a shock for the Reapers, and humanity's a powerfull player on the galactic scene, but we wouldn't stand a chance against the whole Reaper fleet.

You completely forget the part where humans were seriously considered to be given seat on council only after 20 years out there in galaxy. Not to mention win in FCW and all other stuff that humanity brought to galaxy in this small timeframe.
Again it is not about humans current might but about their perspective.

Makkovar wrote...
They won't be completely undetected, but the speed they require to get there shortly would make detection only possible in the last moment. And they cannot fail in normal combat since they're just so advanced.

They can easily gain control of the relay network just after their arrival to the Milky Way.

If it is all that easy for them then why bother making Citadel a trap? Also, it took them few hundreds years to wipe Protheans so it is surely not a cakewalk for them.

[Makkovar]

LorDC wrote...

In "build Human Reaper and return all other Reapers back to galaxy" plan the real problem is first part of it, not second. How Collectors planned to harvest enough humans to finish building it?

If it is all that easy for them then why bother making Citadel a trap?

That's pretty much what I'm asking about. Either they can just fly in super-fast, making it all quite easy, or they can't - meaning there's not gonna be much to do in ME3.
I'm guessing BioWare has a good explanation already though.


What I don't really like in ME universe is how humanity is made to look so "special". We're new in the galaxy politics, we still should have a lot to learn, and the only reason we have a council seat is because the player's not allowed to choose his character's race in this game. So... yeah...

[JamieCOTC]

ME1: Why does Liara tell Shepard to check out the holo on Ilos after Shep has checked out the holo on Ilos?

ME1: If Shep goes to Therum later in the game, Liara notices the lack of time, but what has the Krogan Merc been doing? How dumb is he anyway that he hasn't figured out the laser cannon?



ME2: Why doesn't Shepard confront Jacob and Miranda about the Cerberus involvement on Akuze?

ME2: Why doesn't Shep at least try to call TIM out on lying to her about Liara and the SB?

[Veritasinpersonam]

Personally, I'm shocked by the collective INGRATITUDE of the galactic spacefaring races. They've been using Reaper technology (Mass Relays) to build their entire civilization and when the Reapers come calling for a little fair compensation by devouring all the galactic races so that they can reproduce and repurposing whats left into insect-cyborg servants the Council races just throw it in their face!

Sigh.

"So a reaper invites the human race to a milkshake..."