716 réponses à ce sujet

[kraidy1117]

Pacifien wrote...

cachx wrote...
Question: When trying to "solve" a plot-hole, can we use gameplay/design reasons or we only look at it from the story perspective?

ME1: Why didn't the Normandy just blasted Balak's ship out of the sky when he escaped?
ME2: Why didn't the Normandy just blasted Vido's ship out of the sky
when he escaped?

Weapons weren't calibrated.

What the hell has Garrus been doing the whole time then?

[Ecael]

cachx wrote...

Question: When trying to "solve" a plot-hole, can we use gameplay/design reasons or we only look at it from the story perspective?

ME1: Why didn't the Normandy just blasted Balak's ship out of the sky when he escaped?
ME2: Why didn't the Normandy just blasted Vido's ship out of the sky
when he escaped?

ME1: How did the Normandy/Joker managed to convice and gather a whole fleet and be by the citadel on time?(And why didn't they contact the other council forces that were guarding the relays and thus could have been there on time for the assault as well?)
ME2: In the N7 mission where you have to shut down a rogue AI on an abandoned ship, why are corpses in pools of blood if they (presumably) died of asfixiation?

Well, the writers even try to retcon or explain gameplay changes in Mass Effect 2 - thermal clips, for example.

They could have just made all the characters act like it's been that way forever (the easiest solution), but they decided to try to write around it instead.

Mass Effect could turn into a turn-based time-attack RPG and the writers would still want to explain the design change somehow. That's a lot of effort.

Modifié par Ecael, 10 juin 2010 - 01:03 .

[Pacifien]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

cachx wrote...
Question: When trying to "solve" a plot-hole, can we use gameplay/design reasons or we only look at it from the story perspective?

ME1: Why didn't the Normandy just blasted Balak's ship out of the sky when he escaped?
ME2: Why didn't the Normandy just blasted Vido's ship out of the sky
when he escaped?

Weapons weren't calibrated.

What the hell has Garrus been doing the whole time then?

[philiposophy]

Here are some potential answers.

How come a security camera or something didn't record Saren on Eden Prime?

Eden Prime is an agrarian colony. Maybe they don't have a very large surveillance system. Even if they do, remember that Saren is an exceptionally talented Spectre. I wouldn't put it past him to evade detection by either disabling the cameras or staying out of their view.

How come Shepard didn't show the recordings of the collectors on Freedom's Progress to the council?

He didn't need to. The Council accept that the Collectors are responsible. The reasons they don't lend active assistance are:
1. it's in the Terminus, way outside their jurisdiction.
2. Shepard is already investigating it. A Spectre on the case is enough for the Council in most situations.

ME2 | 28. Why are there mechs and heat sinks in Aeia when Ronald Taylor and crew were stranded there 10 years ago? (commonly asked question)

It's a gameplay mechanic rather than a plothole. That mission would have been gamebreakingly hard if you had to do it all with only your starting ammo.

ME1 | 13. Why couldn't the geth or Saren just attach explosives to all the elevators in Feros, Noveria,
Virmire, Ilos and the Citadel to get rid of Shepard?

Saren's own forces were still using them, plus there was no way of knowing they would actually get Shepard rather than just a random geth platform.

ME1 | 19. Why didn't Saren destroy the second beacon on Virmire after using it to prevent Shepard
from doing the same?

He may have wanted to access it at a later stage. While it's safely hidden away in his base that no one knows about, there's no real reason to get rid of it. It's not like he was waiting for Shepard to arrive there anyway.

ME2 | 30. The Illusive Man said that an Alliance science team discovered the great rift on Klendagon, but it was a Cerberus team that traced the location of the Derelict Reaper. What happened to the Alliance science team?

The rift on Klendagon is mentioned in ME1's planet description, I think, suggesting the discovery was made before Cerberus went rogue, as that happened shortly before ME1. Maybe the Alliance team *IS* the Cerberus team.

ME2 | 32. Was Legion saying that Shepard talked to Sovereign on Ilos writer oversight or did the geth really make a mistake?

A writer's oversight. Or they wanted to make Legion fallible. I suspect the former.

ME1 | 37. Why did the Protheans disable the Keepers' reaction to open the Citadel relay instead of disabling the relay portion of the Citadel itself (both the Keepers and the Citadel are advanced technology, after all)?

There were only about 12 scientists left. It's unlikely they would have been able to destroy something that big. Even that assumes they could find the exact relay parts. It's apparently very well hidden since no one finds it.

ME1 | 39. If Turian husks (Saren) have more reach and flexibility than human husks, why didn't Sovereign just convert all the Turians he found?

Most husks are mindless zombies. Saren was Sovereign's avatar formed from implants that gave him DIRECT CONTROL. He probably could and did make turian husks, they just weren't like Saren's reanimated form.



Edited to try and sort out the formatting I somehow managed to screw up.

Modifié par philiposophy, 10 juin 2010 - 01:16 .

[ObserverStatus]

[*][quote]ME1 | 1. Why weren't there geth ships to guard both ends of the Mu Relay (to counter the Normandy's stealth), and how did Joker fly out once they were alerted to their presence?[/quote]They probably did, but they didn't see them becasue geth ships have no windows.  Windows are a structural weakness.
[quote]ME2 | 4. How DID Shepard's body remain intact during the descent into Alchera or his orbit around it?[/quote]It didn't[quote]ME2 | 10. If Garrus wasn't recruited in ME1, why does he still act like he's known Shepard personally through all the "old times"?[/quote]Many details of the game have been canonized.  Certain details of your adventure have been overlooked, and in the universe ME2 takes place in, they have known eachother for a long time.[quote]ME1 | 13. Why couldn't the geth or Saren just attach explosives to all the elevators in Feros, Noveria, Virmire, Ilos and the Citadel to get rid of Shepard?[/quote]If the Geth knew how often Shepard used elevators, that would imply that they understand fundamental gameplay mechanics, and know this is a video game, and this would create more problems than it fixes in terms of plot cohesion.
[quote]ME2 | 26. Mordin told Shepard that they made covert drops of the modified genophage on Tuchanka's water supplies and hospitals. What about all the krogan in the rest of the galaxy?[/quote]The genophage is likely capable of being transmitted from Krogan to Krogan.
[quote]ME1 | 27. On Therum, if there were so many enemies (including underground), why didn't any of them use the mining laser first to get around the barrier?[/quote]In order to fire the laser shepard had to push several buttons in sequence.  The enemies likely had broken their gamepads.  That, and they didn't want to eplode the volcano.[quote]ME1 | 31. If either Ashley or Kaidan are left behind by themselves in the Virmire multi-squad mission and two other squadmates are with Shepard, what are the other two doing?[/quote]Playing checkers on the Normandy.
[quote]ME1 | 33. If hanar are allowed to roam on the Presidium, where is their Embassy and where is the Hanar Ambassador?[/quote]In the lake.
[quote]ME1 | 35. Why didn't the Normandy SR-1 just use its Reaper-slaying cannons instead of the Mako in the Ilos ruins the moment they saw Saren walk in?[/quote]It didn't have time to maneuver into a position where it could fire it's fixed guns, and it's laser turrets are too short range to hit him.
[quote]ME2 | 36. After the Mass Effect core was destroyed in the Derelict Reaper and they floated over to the Normandy (suggesting the Reaper no longer has its own gravity), why didn't they immediately start falling into Mnemosyne instead?[/quote]If the derelict reaper was falling and the Normandy seemed to be hovering beside it, the normandy was descending at the same speed as the reaper.  They did fall, but they flew strait relative to the normandy and the reaper.[quote]ME1 | 39. If Turian husks (Saren) have more reach and flexibility than human husks, why didn't Sovereign just convert all the Turians he found?[/quote]Saren wasn't a husk.  Also, the reapers consider the turians to be "too primitive" to be worth their time.[quote]ME1 | 45. Why were we forced into joining the Council Spectres? I wanted to side with Saren.[/quote]First of all, at the time you joined the spectres, didn't know where Saren was and needed the council's resources to find him.
[quote]ME2 | 46. Why are Tali and Garrus (and all the aliens on the ship) more trusting of Shepard working with Cerberus than Ashley and Kaidan?[/quote]Ashley has a stick up her ****, as for Kaiden, I don't know.
(End of list)[/quote]

[kraidy1117]

The thing with the MECHs, is you have to read the codex. In the codex it says MECHs where used on colonies but where only used alot more after the attack from Saren. MECHs have always been around, we just never saw them in ME. The clips is part of the gameplay and is not part of the plot, the MECHs are however.

[Pacifien]

kraidy1117 wrote...
The thing with the MECHs, is you have to read the codex. In the codex it says MECHs where used on colonies but where only used alot more after the attack from Saren. MECHs have always been around, we just never saw them in ME. The clips is part of the gameplay and is not part of the plot, the MECHs are however.

They kept the mechs where they keep the turian women.

[kraidy1117]

Pacifien wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
The thing with the MECHs, is you have to read the codex. In the codex it says MECHs where used on colonies but where only used alot more after the attack from Saren. MECHs have always been around, we just never saw them in ME. The clips is part of the gameplay and is not part of the plot, the MECHs are however.

They kept the mechs where they keep the turian women.

LOL pretty much this. Shepard has seen MECHs before ME2, he had too which is why I was not like "wtf is a MECH?"

Clips however are gameplay and are not even mentioned or part of the plot with Jacobs father, thus it's not a plothole. I don't consider gameplay lore, if that was the case then why can't Samara hover during combat, why can't Jack do her biotic punch or better yet why does Kaidan not do a biotic kick in the game? Gameplay has to be diffrent so it's balanced.

[Bore u 2 death]

44.



The shadow broker only deals in information. Cerberus, while not necessarily a larger or more influential organization has multiple branches in scientific research, business, espionage, military, navy, and many many more groups. Not to mention they are pro-human. The Shadow Broker would only want shepard for his information while as Cerberus would want Shepard so that he could fight against the Collectors and Reapers. Cerberus may be a shady group to say the least, and they may do some very extreme things, but the Illusive man is dedicated to preserving and advancing humanity, regardless of the reasons why, and he is one of the few people tha believes in the threat of the Reapers.

[Ecael]

bobobo878 wrote...

ME1 | 33. If hanar are allowed to roam on the Presidium, where is their Embassy and where is the Hanar Ambassador?

In the lake.

[ObserverStatus]

hahaha, nice.

[jackkel dragon]

kraidy1117 wrote...

The thing with the MECHs, is you have to read the codex. In the codex it says MECHs where used on colonies but where only used alot more after the attack from Saren. MECHs have always been around, we just never saw them in ME. The clips is part of the gameplay and is not part of the plot, the MECHs are however.

I'm still waiting for the picture of thermal clips raining on the survivors of the Hugo Gernsback. It's the only way they could possibly explain that, with thermal clips being only two years old (for humans).

Maybe the cadets on the Citadel in ME2 had fired a shipment of thermal clips into space, and that's why the Gunnery Chief is lecturing them about weapons in space. The shipment landed near the crash site of the Hugo Gernsback...

I could definately be a writer.

[Ecael]

jackkel dragon wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

The thing with the MECHs, is you have to read the codex. In the codex it says MECHs where used on colonies but where only used alot more after the attack from Saren. MECHs have always been around, we just never saw them in ME. The clips is part of the gameplay and is not part of the plot, the MECHs are however.

I'm still waiting for the picture of thermal clips raining on the survivors of the Hugo Gernsback. It's the only way they could possibly explain that, with thermal clips being only two years old (for humans).

Maybe the cadets on the Citadel in ME2 had fired a shipment of thermal clips into space, and that's why the Gunnery Chief is lecturing them about weapons in space. The shipment landed near the crash site of the Hugo Gernsback...

I could definately be a writer.

Maybe the geth attacked the feral hunters earlier in an attempt to take that portion of the planet, but lost? That nebula is fairly close to the Perseus Veil, isn't it?

...

They really should have just made them act like husks. They all look the same anyway.

[_purifico_]

ME1 | 33. If hanar are allowed to roam on the Presidium, where is their Embassy and where is the Hanar Ambassador?

"f I don't see it - it doesn't exist". Is that it?

Citadel is a giant space station capable of housing millions of people. It is likely that the presidium is not limited to the areas depicted in the first game. Therefore the hanar embassy (just like the asari, turian and salarian embassies) is somewhere there - we just don't see it. Besides there are plenty of  inaccesable rooms in the area - the embassy might just be behind one of those closed doors.

In short - it is a question of game mechanic and level design, not a plothole. People should try using common sence before starting whining about plotholes.

Modifié par _purifico_, 10 juin 2010 - 02:03 .

[kraidy1117]

jackkel dragon wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

The thing with the MECHs, is you have to read the codex. In the codex it says MECHs where used on colonies but where only used alot more after the attack from Saren. MECHs have always been around, we just never saw them in ME. The clips is part of the gameplay and is not part of the plot, the MECHs are however.

I'm still waiting for the picture of thermal clips raining on the survivors of the Hugo Gernsback. It's the only way they could possibly explain that, with thermal clips being only two years old (for humans).

Maybe the cadets on the Citadel in ME2 had fired a shipment of thermal clips into space, and that's why the Gunnery Chief is lecturing them about weapons in space. The shipment landed near the crash site of the Hugo Gernsback...

I could definately be a writer.

It's just a  part of the gameplay. Now if Bioware would have written clips playing a part in the plot or it being mentioned, then I would have called it a plothole

[Ecael]

_purifico_ wrote...

People should try using common sence before starting whining about plotholes.

...That's the whole point of this thread.

Modifié par Ecael, 10 juin 2010 - 02:09 .

[adam_grif]

ME1: Why didn't Saren just tell the council he found Sovereign and that it was a Prothean warship, then have it dock with the Citadel? Spectres can get an Audience with the council, and that Chamber is the place where he needs to upload the file to let the reapers through. Who could have stopped him?



ME1: If the Council wouldn't let Sovereign dock with it for some reason (even though it really has no reason not to), couldn't he have just brought a lot of scientists and important politicans on-board to inspect this new Prothean find, then get them indoctrinated? Then he could have let the Reapers through without any trouble!



ME1: Or even simpler, why didn't he just roll into the council chambers for an audience, and then activate the switch and let the Reapers through? Robo-Saren is practically invincible, who could have fought him off?



ME1: How did Saren/Sovereign know what The Conduit was, and that they needed it?



ME1: Why couldn't you ask the council what to do with the Rachni instead of deciding on the spot? Your squadmates will even suggest this, but you can't do it. It's not like the queen is going anywhere, so why can't you drive back from Peak 15, and call the Council, then return to act out their decision?





ME2: If the Reapers can simply fly to the Galaxy, and do it in a reasonable time-frame (get there in time for ME3), then why didn't they fly to the galaxy a thousand years ago when their initial plot was foiled in the Rachni war, or then again a few hundred years ago instead of an overly-elaborate plot to get Saren and the Geth to directly confront the Citadel?



ME2: What was the collector's gameplan? If they needed to attack Earth to finish the Human Reaper, how were they going to do that? They would have been completely obliterated by the Arcturus Fleet. Even if they got to Earth, other ships would still wipe them out once they're there. Even if they DID finish the Human Reaper, how were they going to bring back the Reapers? Were they going to attack the Citadel AGAIN, but this time without a Geth Armada and only a single Collector ship? Even with now tighter security?



ME2: What was Cerberus / Shepard's plan from the start? All you ever see is vague utterances of stopping the Collectors, but how were they going to do that? Until near the end of the game, we're under the impressino that The Collectors are an entire civilization of people, with what we can only assume is an entire Armada of ships. Even when we find out they're in the Galactic core, we still have reason to believe that they have a large number of ships and a huge population. So why was TIM confident, and why didn't anybody bother to talk to Shepard about how they had absolutely no plan and no chance of succeeding given what they knew? It's one thing for this ti be a Suicide Mission, but they had NO CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING IN THEIR MISSION except that everyting went completely perfectly for them!



ME2: Why didn't Shepard and Co bring a buncch of nukes (i.e. the ones we used on Jack's loyalty mission) to blow up the collectors? Were they planning on fighting their way to a convenient-to-overload reactor that would destroy the station?



ME2: Why did TIM send you around from the start to recruit a team of the best? Did he somehow know that their mission would be decided by small-scale infantry battles? Why didn't Shepard confront him about these gaping holes in their plan?



ME2: Why didn't TIM equip the SR2 with a bunch of YMIR mechs? We know Cerberus has them (from the start of the game), and they would slaughter the collectors!



ME2: Why couldn't you save the civilians on Zaeed's loyalty mission and then tell Joker to intercept and destroy any ships that came up from the surface (the escaping guy)?



ME2: Why do the GARDIAN defense "lasers" on the colony in ME2 fire solid slugs like a railgun?



ME2: Why did the multiple Turian ships get killed by the Collector ship in ME2? The collector ship goes down to 2 shots from a cruiser-equivelant gun, so did the Turians just not bother to return fire on the ship?



ME2: Why didn't the SR2 simply open fire on the Collector ship when it was taking off from the colony after getting pounded by the defense towers? It was weakened, and as it's taking off it can't aim it's guns at the SR2 because it's facing the wrong way (and the big particle beam is at the top).



ME2: Why does the Normandy engage in stupid dogfighting with the Occulus' and blast them with torpedos/guns, instead of simply turning on the point defense lasers and blasting them to smithereens?

[kraidy1117]

Adam you are biased.

[Ecael]

adam_grif wrote...

ME1: Why didn't Saren just tell the council he found Sovereign and that it was a Prothean warship, then have it dock with the Citadel? Spectres can get an Audience with the council, and that Chamber is the place where he needs to upload the file to let the reapers through. Who could have stopped him?

ME1: If the Council wouldn't let Sovereign dock with it for some reason (even though it really has no reason not to), couldn't he have just brought a lot of scientists and important politicans on-board to inspect this new Prothean find, then get them indoctrinated? Then he could have let the Reapers through without any trouble!

ME1: Or even simpler, why didn't he just roll into the council chambers for an audience, and then activate the switch and let the Reapers through? Robo-Saren is practically invincible, who could have fought him off?

For Sovereign, all of those plans are heavy risk. Although I kind of like the indoctrinating scientists part.

They should have indoctrinated the Council first - or maybe they already have...

ME1: How did Saren/Sovereign know what The Conduit was, and that they needed it?

No idea.

Anyone read the Mass Effect novels? I haven't.

ME2: If the Reapers can simply fly to the Galaxy, and do it in a reasonable time-frame (get there in time for ME3), then why didn't they fly to the galaxy a thousand years ago when their initial plot was foiled in the Rachni war, or then again a few hundred years ago instead of an overly-elaborate plot to get Saren and the Geth to directly confront the Citadel?

The Reapers are couch potatoes. They should have sent more than Sovereign anyway.

ME2: What was the collector's gameplan? If they needed to attack Earth to finish the Human Reaper, how were they going to do that? They would have been completely obliterated by the Arcturus Fleet. Even if they got to Earth, other ships would still wipe them out once they're there. Even if they DID finish the Human Reaper, how were they going to bring back the Reapers? Were they going to attack the Citadel AGAIN, but this time without a Geth Armada and only a single Collector ship? Even with now tighter security?

I'm thinking the Human Reaper would be really good at indoctrinating humans from a long distance.

Or something.

ME2: Why didn't TIM equip the SR2 with a bunch of YMIR mechs? We know Cerberus has them (from the start of the game), and they would slaughter the collectors!

Wilson.

ME2: Why did the multiple Turian ships get killed by the Collector ship in ME2? The collector ship goes down to 2 shots from a cruiser-equivelant gun, so did the Turians just not bother to return fire on the ship?

I thought it was just a trap that Cerberus passed on?

ME2: Why didn't the SR2 simply open fire on the Collector ship when it was taking off from the colony after getting pounded by the defense towers? It was weakened, and as it's taking off it can't aim it's guns at the SR2 because it's facing the wrong way (and the big particle beam is at the top).

The Normandy has had plenty of chances to destroy pretty much everything in Mass Effect, including the Collector Ship (twice). Although both times they believed that there were people still alive in there.

[Mouton_Alpha]

A lot of negligible nitpicks in this thread, seriously.



I could settle for avoiding the major plotholes, really. Like the good old shuttle to nowhere and such.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well the shuttle to nowhere will actually occur if you go to a mission (I've got it when going to Heretic station and Illium), but if you've done all available missions thats when it occurs and seems out of place.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 10 juin 2010 - 02:32 .

[Pacifien]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
I could settle for avoiding the major plotholes, really. Like the good old shuttle to nowhere and such.

You didn't see the pizza invite the Illusive Man emailed you for you and all your squadmates before that shuttle ride?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

ME1: Why was it a choice between Kaiden or Ash on Virmire? Why not any of the random 'red-shirts' on the Normandy? Or one of the aliens?



ME2: I had the ship fully upgraded (Shields,armour, weapon) by the time the Collector ship mission came up. Why did Joker have to run away when we could have just destroyed it?

[SuperMedbh]

ME1:  Due to conservation of angular momentum, when the Citadel closes, objects towards the ends of the Citadel will experience a roughly .13 g acceleration perpendicular to the usual artificial "gravity".  That doesn't sound like much until you realize that your best china set will head for the walls at 1.27 m/s2.  Smash city!

For the three of you who care about the maths, let L=mvr where L equals angular momentum, v equals the rotational velocity (perpendicular to the radius of rotation) and r equals the radius of rotation.

Since L is constant for an unaccelerated system, and the mass of our objects (the Citadel and my china set) also remains constant, we are left with

V1*R1=V2*R2

Where the left side represents the open Citadel velocity (V1) and radius (R1) and the right the closed. Pretty obvious so far, I assume.

The thing is that an object's radius depends upon the centre of mass, so in the open Citadel's case, this will mean averaging the narrow part with the wide part. The Presidium is the narrow part when open, and for ease, I
assume that's the uniform radius for the entire Citadel when closed, or R2. We'll call the wide radius Rw for now.

We then set Rw=K*R2 where K equals the ratio of Rw/R2 Again, pretty obvious.

To get the average radius of rotation of the open Citadel, we average the radii. This gives us

R1=(Rw+R2)/2=(KR2+R2)/2=(K+1)R2/2

Since
V1*R1=V2*R2
V1*(K+1)*R2/2=V2*R2
((K+1)*V1)/2=V2

or simply,
V2= (K*V1)/2 + (V1)/2
(extra parentheses for clarity)

We can see how this is true, because if the citadel open and closed were to be the same radius, K would equal 1. Plugging 1 in there for K, we see that there would be no change in V in that case.

Anyway, that's for the Citadel. Looking at the wiki, we derive a K of 1.78 (12.8km/7.2
km) Its rotational velocity at the end is 191.5 m/s when open, based on one rotation every 3.5 minutes. Plugging our numbers in, we get a V2of 266.2 m/s when closed.

So far, so good! But what about the china set in my flat on the end of an arm? Unlike the Citadel, its
centre of mass is solely located at the wide end, for a rotational radius of Rw, or K*R2. It will therefore have a different final rotational velocity, let's call it Vc

So for the cup,
V1*K*R2=Vc*R2
which gives us  Vc=K*V1

Plugging in the numbers gives us a Vc of 266.2 m/s for a difference in velocity of 74.7 m/s
between the cup and the Citadel. The cup would want to slide in a spinward direction (again, nothing to do with the centripetal vector) You'll note that exactly halfway down the arm, delta V is 0, and at the Presidium end, delta V will be in an anti-spinward direction (the Citadel accelerates, but the table service does not).

AND YET NO ONE EVER MENTIONS THIS!!!!!111 





Oh yes, ME2.  Boo the Space Hamster was onboard when EDI opened the ship to space (except for the engine room).  HOW DID HE SURVIVE?????  In a recent thread about this, it became clear that the ONLY way Boo could survive would be Reaper Tech.  Which brings up the obvious suspicion---

Modifié par SuperMedbh, 10 juin 2010 - 02:56 .