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[Ecael]

Mesina2 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Ecael wrote...


37. If they messed up the keeper system, the Citadel would have fallen into to disrepair, making it unhabitable for the races to come. I think they were gambling either way.

Heh, So?

I mean the universe could get along fine without the Citadel. Its just a thing of convenience designed to tempt races into making the huge already built fully serviced space station their center of govt.

The Protheans shouldn't have cared about the station's usability, far from it in fact.

They should have just disabled the Citadel then - then Sovereign won't be able to activate it at all.

Probably because they couldn't.

The Keepers as well as the Citadel are technology far more advanced than the Protheans. If they can hack one, they should be able to hack the other.

[Archereon]

There's a term for quite a bit of what's going on in this thread.



Tvtropes refers to it as "Fan W*nk" (fanboys/girls desperately trying to cover the developers' arses).



Though admittedly many of the plot holes are borne of ignorance or stupidity, and many of them are gameplay-story segregation (heat sinks in Jacob's mission), which is excusable, there are quite a few "plot holes", for lack of a better word (if someone sees something, and they decide "HEY!" That's .000000005% off from what it should be, they scream plot hole) that require massive amounts of handwaving, and some that are completely illogical.

[Ecael]

Archereon wrote...

There's a term for quite a bit of what's going on in this thread.

Tvtropes refers to it as "Fan W*nk" (fanboys/girls desperately trying to cover the developers' arses).

That is, in fact, the purpose of the thread.

Though admittedly many of the plot holes are borne of ignorance or stupidity, and many of them are gameplay-story segregation (heat sinks in Jacob's mission), which is excusable, there are quite a few "plot holes", for lack of a better word (if someone sees something, and they decide "HEY!" That's .000000005% off from what it should be, they scream plot hole) that require massive amounts of handwaving, and some that are completely illogical.

With a story this size and multiple writers working on it, it's going to have plot holes. Mass Effect is unique in that many storylines and characters will carry over into the next while being affected by the gamer's choices somehow.

We can't fix or create a whole new main plot, but it is possible that the writers can patch up some plot holes using the codex or through dialogue in the next game.

For example:



It's a lot more useful than just complaining about it.

:innocent:

[CroGamer002]

Ecael wrote...

Archereon wrote...

There's a term for quite a bit of what's going on in this thread.

Tvtropes refers to it as "Fan W*nk" (fanboys/girls desperately trying to cover the developers' arses).

That is, in fact, the purpose of the thread.

Though admittedly many of the plot holes are borne of ignorance or stupidity, and many of them are gameplay-story segregation (heat sinks in Jacob's mission), which is excusable, there are quite a few "plot holes", for lack of a better word (if someone sees something, and they decide "HEY!" That's .000000005% off from what it should be, they scream plot hole) that require massive amounts of handwaving, and some that are completely illogical.

With a story this size and multiple writers working on it, it's going to have plot holes. Mass Effect is unique in that many storylines and characters will carry over into the next while being affected by the gamer's choices somehow.

We can't fix or create a whole new main plot, but it is possible that the writers can patch up some plot holes using the codex or through dialogue in the next game.

For example:



It's a lot more useful than just complaining about it.

:innocent:

I dismiss Codex explanation of thermal clips.

[chris025657]

I've always thought Saren attacking Eden Prime was a giant plothole in ME 1. Before attacking Eden Prime, he has superior forces and the element of surprise. He had a large geth fleet that was capable of defeating a supposedly prepared council fleet defending the Citadel even without much help from Sovereign. He had Benezia and her Asari commandos as well as access to the Council chambers.

Instead of attacking the Citadel, Saren goes after the Conduit, which is later revealed to be a backdoor onto the Citadel. Why would Saren go after a backdoor when no one knows what he's up to or is capable of stopping him?

As for ME 2, why did the Collectors design their base so that the "critical systems" could be easily manipulated so that it could either send out a radiation pulse killing everyone, or overload and blow up the entire station?

Modifié par chris025657, 11 juin 2010 - 09:30 .

[Ecael]

chris025657 wrote...

I've always thought Saren attacking Eden Prime was a giant plothole in ME 1. Before attacking Eden Prime, he has superior forces and the element of surprise. He had a large geth fleet that was capable of defeating a supposedly prepared council fleet defending the Citadel even without much help from Sovereign. He had Benezia and her Asari commandos as well as access to the Council chambers.

Instead of attacking the Citadel, Saren goes after the Conduit, which is later revealed to be a backdoor onto the Citadel. Why would Saren go after a backdoor when no one knows what he's up to or is capable of stopping him?

That's true - was it ever explained how Saren found out about the first Prothean beacon? That might be in one of the novels.

As for ME 2, why did the Collectors design their base so that the "critical systems" could be easily manipulated so that it could either send out a radiation pulse killing everyone, or overload and blow up the entire station?

Glowing blue cookies are deadly.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

chris025657 wrote...
As for ME 2, why did the Collectors design their base so that the "critical systems" could be easily manipulated so that it could either send out a radiation pulse killing everyone, or overload and blow up the entire station?

Hmmmm, shouldn't that concept be apliable to a lot of "bases" or "ships" in sci-fi universes, even so the ones who deal with an environment surrounded by black holes? Anyway, not really a plothole again.

[InvaderErl]

ME1



Why did Saren attack the Thorian in the first place? Attacking it is what alerted the Alliance and Shepard. If he had left it alone, that situation could have gone on for much longer, perhaps even indefinitely giving Saren the time he needed to enact his plan without giving Shepard a crucial piece of the puzzle.



ME 2



Why didn't Harbinger just destroy the Normandy 2 after it had been disabled following the installation of the IFF?

[Ecael]

InvaderErl wrote...

ME1

Why did Saren attack the Thorian in the first place? Attacking it is what alerted the Alliance and Shepard. If he had left it alone, that situation could have gone on for much longer, perhaps even indefinitely giving Saren the time he needed to enact his plan without giving Shepard a crucial piece of the puzzle.

Maybe he wanted to stop Shepard from ever getting access to the Thorian, tried to kill it, and failed? If he successfully destroyed it, he might have beaten Shepard to the punch.

ME 2

Why didn't Harbinger just destroy the Normandy 2 after it had been disabled following the installation of the IFF?

I think EDI warp drived the Normandy right as the Collectors went back inside the ship checking for any leftover survivors.

[InvaderErl]

Ecael wrote...


Maybe he wanted to stop Shepard from ever getting access to the Thorian, tried to kill it, and failed? If he successfully destroyed it, he might have beaten Shepard to the punch.

The Thorian was satisfied, Saren had gotten his Cipher and all seemed well. Shepard would never have even been sent to investigate Feros if not for Saren launching an all out attack on it. He brought attention to himself when he should have been laying low, for no good reason.

Ecael wrote...
I think EDI warp drived the Normandy right as the Collectors went back inside the ship checking for any leftover survivors.

He certainly seemed eager to blow the Normandy 1 apart without checking for survivors.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 juin 2010 - 03:10 .

[Crunchyinmilk]

Ecael wrote...
[*]

ME2 | 28. Why are there mechs and heat sinks in Aeia when Ronald Taylor and crew were stranded there 10 years ago? (commonly asked question)

Is there some codex log that says the mechs are a new invention? The ammo clips could be explained by the simple assumption that you're not the first group to respond to the distress beacon, or visit the planet. Its a known region of space for first tier colonization after all, its what the Gernsback was out there for...

Some group since the introduction of ammo clips got there before you and where overwhelmed. Ronald isn't likely to mention such a thing outright, he's already unstable and lying through his teeth to get off world.

The retarded women all seem to recognise you as visitors from the sky.

[Christmas Ape]

InvaderErl wrote...
He certainly seemed eager to blow the Normandy 1 apart without checking for survivors.

Well sure. You're just some damp little organic - one that helped break Nazara, sure, but still a damp little organic mutation. Right place, right time - might as well just kill you. So they do.

And you come back to spit in their eye. Now they're taking notice - something is very different about this organic. Acquire and analyze.

[CroGamer002]

Crunchyinmilk wrote...

Ecael wrote...
[*]

ME2 | 28. Why are there mechs and heat sinks in Aeia when Ronald Taylor and crew were stranded there 10 years ago? (commonly asked question)

Is there some codex log that says the mechs are a new invention? The ammo clips could be explained by the simple assumption that you're not the first group to respond to the distress beacon, or visit the planet. Its a known region of space for first tier colonization after all, its what the Gernsback was out there for...

Some group since the introduction of ammo clips got there before you and where overwhelmed. Ronald isn't likely to mention such a thing outright, he's already unstable and lying through his teeth to get off world.

The retarded women all seem to recognise you as visitors from the sky.

[*]
[*]
[*]Or just diffrent game mechanic.

[Panda Warlock]

Ecael wrote...

The Keepers as well as the Citadel are technology far more advanced than the Protheans. If they can hack one, they should be able to hack the other.

I presume Citadel is indeed far more advanced than anything that was used at the time, but Keepers... They are like Collectors, just with different purpouse. A mix of organic and cybernetic organisms, nowhere near as advanced as mass relays. I even suspect that the Citadel is far more advanced than simple mass relay. So that would mean, changing one thing in keeper "program" is easier to accomplish compared to finding, analyzing and disabling a vital Citadel element.
Not to mention, that Keepers would just fix it. That's why they are there after all.

chris025657 wrote...

I've always thought Saren attacking
Eden Prime was a giant plothole in ME 1. Before attacking Eden Prime, he
has superior forces and the element of surprise. He had a large geth
fleet that was capable of defeating a supposedly prepared council fleet
defending the Citadel even without much help from Sovereign. He had
Benezia and her Asari commandos as well as access to the Council
chambers.

Instead of attacking the Citadel, Saren goes after the
Conduit, which is later revealed to be a backdoor onto the Citadel. Why
would Saren go after a backdoor when no one knows what he's up to or is
capable of stopping him?

I was wondering why didn't he just come to Council chamber and use Sovereign's codes to take control when he was a proper, unsuspected Spectre. My guess is this required too much time, and risk of someone stopping him when he starts meddling with something nobody suspected even was there was just too big.

Saren doesn't have superior forces. Geth he controls have strong fleet, right. But in frontal attack, it'd be wiped out. Even Sovereign would be in danger if whole Citadel fleet attacked him at once.

When Normandy SR-1 got locked down, Council mentioned that every relay leading to Citadel was secured by additional ships. Even when not in danger, those relays must've been protected. The moment geth show up there, Citadel gets those news, and ships from every other "connected" relay are summoned to the Citadel. Then they can either go help those attacked or prepare for enemy to show up.
That's why Saren needed to use the codes for Citadel control. He basically cut down every connection from outside, leaving only one for geth and Sovereign. Citadel forces never knew what hit them, and couldn't summon forces from behind other relays. Sovereign was supposed to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Citadel when enemy ships were too busy to be of any danger to him.

[Jonathan Shepard]

I was actually just replaying Mass Effect 1, and guess what?! I found a plot hole!

Right after Nihlus gets killed, you see Sovereign lifting off of Eden Prime. Then, once you activate the monorail train thing, you get a cutscene of Saren saying to a geth: "Set the charges. Leave no evidence we were here."

So this implies two things:

1: The charges never went off, since Shepard prevented that. Which means there is evidence Saren and the Geth were at Eden Prime. So if Shepard wanted to find proof Saren was on Eden Prime, why did he not go get some security footage or something? Because obviously, Saren was afraid of being found out due to evidence ON EDEN PRIME. Or else he wouldn't need to blow the place.



2: How did he get ONTO Sovereign (as you see in the cutscene after Eden Prime's completion, with his whole RAW I AM EVIL rage moment) if Sovereign had already lifted off the planet?



...as to number 1: since Shepard was unconscious, and the Normandy was already on its way to the Citadel, Anderson knew only very little about what had actually happened (unlikely, because Ash or Kaidan would have told him the story) with Saren. So, he decided to head back to the Citadel and wait for Shep to wake up.



For number 2: Maybe Saren had another small shuttle that wasn't shown. Or the cutscene was just shown for the player's benefit right before disarming the bombs, when the conversation had happened right before Saren boarded Sovereign and left Eden Prime.



...yep.

[chris025657]

Panda Warlock wrote...

chris025657 wrote...

I've always thought Saren attacking
Eden Prime was a giant plothole in ME 1. Before attacking Eden Prime, he
has superior forces and the element of surprise. He had a large geth
fleet that was capable of defeating a supposedly prepared council fleet
defending the Citadel even without much help from Sovereign. He had
Benezia and her Asari commandos as well as access to the Council
chambers.

Instead of attacking the Citadel, Saren goes after the
Conduit, which is later revealed to be a backdoor onto the Citadel. Why
would Saren go after a backdoor when no one knows what he's up to or is
capable of stopping him?

I was wondering why didn't he just come to Council chamber and use Sovereign's codes to take control when he was a proper, unsuspected Spectre. My guess is this required too much time, and risk of someone stopping him when he starts meddling with something nobody suspected even was there was just too big.

Saren doesn't have superior forces. Geth he controls have strong fleet, right. But in frontal attack, it'd be wiped out. Even Sovereign would be in danger if whole Citadel fleet attacked him at once.

When Normandy SR-1 got locked down, Council mentioned that every relay leading to Citadel was secured by additional ships. Even when not in danger, those relays must've been protected. The moment geth show up there, Citadel gets those news, and ships from every other "connected" relay are summoned to the Citadel. Then they can either go help those attacked or prepare for enemy to show up.
That's why Saren needed to use the codes for Citadel control. He basically cut down every connection from outside, leaving only one for geth and Sovereign. Citadel forces never knew what hit them, and couldn't summon forces from behind other relays. Sovereign was supposed to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Citadel when enemy ships were too busy to be of any danger to him.

The geth fleet would not get wiped out in a frontal assault. In the end game cinematic Saren's geth fleet was able to annihilate the citadel fleet and was more than capable of destroying the Destiny Ascension. The citadel fleet was expecting his attack. The element of surprise would give the geth a further advantage. 


As for controlling the Citadel and the relays, Saren and Sovereign should already have this ability. I don't see how going after the conduit changes this. Saren shouldn't need a backdoor to gain access to the Citadel. While I don't think he would be able to smuggle geth onto the citadel, he could probably get Benezia, her Asari commandos, and his Krogan mercenary army on the citadel to help him gain control of the station. 

[SnakeStrike8]

I have a plothole to point out (forgive me if its been pointed out before).



ME2: While talking to Legion, it gives you an almost exact repeat of the speech Sovereign gave you on Virmire ("Your civilization is based on the technology... our technology"). How did Legion know that? We know that Shepard-Commander was apparently unable to record the conversation and play it back to the Council later and gain credibility for his ravings that way, so how did Legion know?



One possible explanation is that one of the heretic geth picked up on it and that info got stored in their collective memories, and Legion 'took' it when it accessed their memories on the heretic station in Phoenix Massing.

Or that's what I think. Thoughts?

[Panda Warlock]

chris025657 wrote...

Panda Warlock wrote...

chris025657 wrote...

I've always thought Saren attacking
Eden Prime was a giant plothole in ME 1. Before attacking Eden Prime, he
has superior forces and the element of surprise. He had a large geth
fleet that was capable of defeating a supposedly prepared council fleet
defending the Citadel even without much help from Sovereign. He had
Benezia and her Asari commandos as well as access to the Council
chambers.

Instead of attacking the Citadel, Saren goes after the
Conduit, which is later revealed to be a backdoor onto the Citadel. Why
would Saren go after a backdoor when no one knows what he's up to or is
capable of stopping him?

I was wondering why didn't he just come to Council chamber and use Sovereign's codes to take control when he was a proper, unsuspected Spectre. My guess is this required too much time, and risk of someone stopping him when he starts meddling with something nobody suspected even was there was just too big.

Saren doesn't have superior forces. Geth he controls have strong fleet, right. But in frontal attack, it'd be wiped out. Even Sovereign would be in danger if whole Citadel fleet attacked him at once.

When Normandy SR-1 got locked down, Council mentioned that every relay leading to Citadel was secured by additional ships. Even when not in danger, those relays must've been protected. The moment geth show up there, Citadel gets those news, and ships from every other "connected" relay are summoned to the Citadel. Then they can either go help those attacked or prepare for enemy to show up.
That's why Saren needed to use the codes for Citadel control. He basically cut down every connection from outside, leaving only one for geth and Sovereign. Citadel forces never knew what hit them, and couldn't summon forces from behind other relays. Sovereign was supposed to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Citadel when enemy ships were too busy to be of any danger to him.

The geth fleet would not get wiped out in a frontal assault. In the end game cinematic Saren's geth fleet was able to annihilate the citadel fleet and was more than capable of destroying the Destiny Ascension. The citadel fleet was expecting his attack. The element of surprise would give the geth a further advantage. 


As for controlling the Citadel and the relays, Saren and Sovereign should already have this ability. I don't see how going after the conduit changes this. Saren shouldn't need a backdoor to gain access to the Citadel. While I don't think he would be able to smuggle geth onto the citadel, he could probably get Benezia, her Asari commandos, and his Krogan mercenary army on the citadel to help him gain control of the station. 

1. The situation at the end of the game (anihilating citadel fleet) was possible alny because Saren used Conduit. Forces of the Citadel were NOT concentrated by the Citadel. I even dare to assume it wasn't even half of whole Citadel fleet. As I said, they were divided into smaller groups, guarding different ways geth could come to Citadel. They were expecting Saren to come there normal way - jumping from one relay to other, until they go through one connected to Citadel. If they would come that way and didn't paralyze relay communication, Sovereign and geth would find resistance in form of much bigger, prepared and ready flleet. It was the fact that Citadel got attacked from inside, they lost control over it and couldn't bring reinforcements from behind deactivated relays that got them surprised.
Just Alliance forces were enough to destroy geth ships and Sovereign. And humans didn't have fleet more powerful than whole Citadel. But they were ready to attack and concentrated in one place, as opposed to forces by the Citadel.

2. Conduit has nothing to do with ability to control Citadel. It only allowed Saren to use it.
And I highly doubt you can just bring an army of commandos to Citadel Tower.. Not mentioning the Krogan. Have you seen any Krogan on Presidium (excluding Wrex}? That'd be mighty suspicious. And would end up in fighting his way through, without a way to bring a stream of reinforcements from Ilos right to the heart of Presidium.

[NocturnalStillness]

Just flicking through this topic and am surprised how many people seem to thing the STGs modified genophage was only dropped on Tuchanka. I'm sure I remember Mordin explaining it was dropped on Tuchanka and other Krogan centric areas.

[Ecael]

NocturnalStillness wrote...

Just flicking through this topic and am surprised how many people seem to thing the STGs modified genophage was only dropped on Tuchanka. I'm sure I remember Mordin explaining it was dropped on Tuchanka and other Krogan centric areas.

As someone pointed out (and corrected me) earlier in the thread, they didn't need to drop it elsewhere because all the female krogan are on Tuchanka already.

[FarplaneGuide]

InvaderErl wrote...


The Thorian was satisfied, Saren had gotten his Cipher and all seemed well. Shepard would never have even been sent to investigate Feros if not for Saren launching an all out attack on it. He brought attention to himself when he should have been laying low, for no good reason.

Saren probably decided to kill the Thorian after he failed to destroy Eden Prime and Anderson started accusing him
in front of council again. Since Thorian and colonists were already watched by Exogeni someone would have to notice Saren on Feros. He was probably afraid that information about him being on Feros would leak (maybe even about the Thorian, he couldn't count on Exogeni protecting it's secrets) and Alliance or Shepard would start to investigate.
So he decided to kill it before that happened.

Modifié par FarplaneGuide, 12 juin 2010 - 04:48 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

This thread makes me less and less eager to buy ME3.



But i knew it would happen when i started reading it, sigh.

[NICKjnp]

Why did Joker tell EDI to get the Normandy away from the Collector Ship before she had control of the Normandy?

[Ecael]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

This thread makes me less and less eager to buy ME3.

But i knew it would happen when i started reading it, sigh.

Suspension of disbelief. You should use it more often.



Otherwise we'd all be questioning why faster than light travel relies on a substance that, if real, would still have mass in itself, thus negating the whole point of the "Mass" effect. Or why prenatal exposure to said substance causes some people to become biotics, the same way some fictional characters become superheroes by being exposed to radiation.

It's like complaining how the Flintstones can use telephones when electricity didn't exist back then, while ignoring the fact that they're living with dinosaurs.

In other words...

Modifié par Ecael, 12 juin 2010 - 06:01 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I have a feeling that the writers of Mass Effect would manage to make a walk down a hallway make no sense upon scrutiny