29 réponses à ce sujet

[Mars Nova]

I know that if you give the evidence to the admirals during Tali's trial, you won't gain her loyalty.  But can you still gain it later if you side with Tali during her argument with Legion?  Or is it too late by then?

[Fiery Phoenix]

I'm going to say no. During the argument with Legion, you can "regain" her loyalty, but not gain it as in, well, gain.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 10 juin 2010 - 05:17 .

[NuclearBuddha]

If one or the other isn't loyal, I don't think the confrontation even happens. More proof that only failures blow the trial.

[FsDxRAGE]

The only reason you would give Tali's evidence away is if you have no heart and a icy void as a soul.

Sadface. What Darth said.

*walks away weeping*

[Pacifien]

I'm totally going to blow that trial and give them the evidence. It's for science.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I actually think Buddha is right. You probably have to have successfully gained both loyalties for the confrontation to trigger.

[Epantiras]

That's an interesting question, besides the whole character reveal video of Tali was made to tell us that she would get exiled if we don't act.

[Mars Nova]

FsDxRAGE wrote...
The only reason you would give Tali's evidence away is if you have no heart and a icy void as a soul.

Not necessarily.  By Tali's own admission, her father's actions broke the quarians' most sacred laws, ones that predated even their exile.  They were bascially war crimes.  You really think that kind of stuff deserves and/or needs to remain hidden?

[Collider]

Mars Nova wrote...
Not necessarily.  By Tali's own admission, her father's actions broke the quarians' most sacred laws, ones that predated even their exile.  They were bascially war crimes.  You really think that kind of stuff deserves and/or needs to remain hidden?

I agree that this is a legitimate point. However, they were all punished for their crimes. Everyone responsible for the experiments is dead. That is the greatest justice.

Not giving the evidence means that the Admiralty Board can search the ship themselves and find the whatever is left there, and then decide what to do with it.

Giving the evidence feels kind of pretentious to me because Shepard is essentially announcing to the public (of a foreign political body that Shepard is only a guest of due to circumstance) top secret information that could potentially cause panic and disorder among the populace.

It's better just to let the Admiralty Board decide what to do with the Alarei, rather than Shepard.

Modifié par Collider, 10 juin 2010 - 07:24 .

[Pacifien]

Mars Nova wrote...
Not necessarily.  By Tali's own admission, her father's actions broke the quarians' most sacred laws, ones that predated even their exile.  They were bascially war crimes.  You really think that kind of stuff deserves and/or needs to remain hidden?

Had it been a real life situation, I would have definitely revealed the evidence. Tali's not a love interest, so I'm not sacrificing some deep-rooted love between us. Possibly sacrificing deep-rooted friendship. Difficult to say if any sense of friendship is completely over.

Revealing the evidence tears the flotilla apart, it would seem, but given the in-fighting the Admirals had displayed and the events of the novel Ascension, it would appear the flotilla was one straw from breaking its own back. Hide the evidence so that the quarians can provide a united front in the coming war against the Reapers maybe, but it's only a matter of time before things fall apart for them at this rate.

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
I agree that this is a legitimate point. However, they were all punished for their crimes. Everyone responsible for the experiments is dead. That is the greatest justice.

Not necessarily. If a war criminal dies without anyone but a few knowing the wiser, then there is no atrocity for which others can atone. And when war crimes are conducted, I do think it goes beyond the instigator to make things right. That's why such crimes are given significant weight.

As for letting the Admiralty board decide what to do with the evidence, if Admiral Xen gets to the research, do you think Admiral Koris is going to hear about it? They seem prone to hiding information from each other when they know it will cause a stir.

[Collider]

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
I agree that this is a legitimate point. However, they were all punished for their crimes. Everyone responsible for the experiments is dead. That is the greatest justice.

Not necessarily.

Of course. It's subjective.

If a war criminal dies without anyone but a few knowing the wiser, then there is no atrocity for which others can atone.

You can't atone if you're dead. Everyone on the Alarei was dead.

And when war crimes are conducted, I do think it goes beyond the instigator to make things right. That's why such crimes are given significant weight.

I don't think it's right to announce in a foreign country such sensitive information in front of civilians. It feels pretentious to me. The only reason Shepard is on the ship in the first place is because of Tali - he wasn't invited.

As for letting the Admiralty board decide what to do with the evidence, if Admiral Xen gets to the research, do you think Admiral Koris is going to hear about it? They seem prone to hiding information from each other when they know it will cause a stir.

I know that Xen gets the research - but that is metagaming. Shepard doesn't know that Xen is going to go to the Alarei and nab the evidence for herself.

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
*snip*
I don't think it's right to announce in a foreign country such sensitive information in front of civilians. It feels pretentious to me. The only reason Shepard is on the ship in the first place is because of Tali - he wasn't invited.

How's that Batarian put it when you first arrive on Omega? "Thinks tend to explode around you?"

If people are going to put my Shepard in charge of anything, be prepared for things to explode around them.

I'm not sure if the gathering is really civilians. I had played it like it was a gathering of ship captains and other seemingly important people. As such, they have a right to know what their Admiralty Board is up to. If what Tali's father did is that horrendous a crime that the fleet can tear itself apart over it, we're talking research on the level of what Cerberus tends to. We're talking someone going too far in the hopes the ends justify the means.

Some people think it's perfectly okay for Cerberus to act in such a manner, so it's not a stretch to allow the researchers on the Alarei their experiments. But I'm not keen on what Cerberus does, and I'm not keen on what Tali's father was doing. If we justify it as a natural defense against possible war, then most any war crime can be justified in such a manner.

[Collider]

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
*snip*
I don't think it's right to announce in a foreign country such sensitive information in front of civilians. It feels pretentious to me. The only reason Shepard is on the ship in the first place is because of Tali - he wasn't invited.

How's that Batarian put it when you first arrive on Omega? "Thinks tend to explode around you?"

If people are going to put my Shepard in charge of anything, be prepared for things to explode around them.

Shepard is not in charge of the Admiralty Board's government.

I'm not sure if the gathering is really civilians. I had played it like it was a gathering of ship captains and other seemingly important people.

As such, they have a right to know what their Admiralty Board is up to.

Well first of all you're assuming that they're ship captains, or important people. And it's still not Shepard's right, IMO, to risk the security and order of the fleet by blabbing. Governments hide information from the public, and among the lesser politicians all the time - and rightfully so a lot of the times.

Leaking war secrets can jeapardize the nation's security, for instance - such as leaking the government's plans to take down a terrorist ring. If the leak reaches the terrorist ring, they can essentially hide and evade the government - they would be evading justice. Likewise, if there is any loose ends with Rael's research, for example suppliers on the side who contributed to the experiments, blurting out the information to everyone means they can quite potentially never be caught. There is a reason why the police departments tend to be careful with what they reveal - every word they say can botch their plans to catch whomever is at large.

It's better to put the issue in the Admiralty Board's hands, because they have the right - Shepard does not.

If what Tali's father did is that horrendous a crime that the fleet can tear itself apart over it, we're talking research on the level of what Cerberus tends to. We're talking someone going too far in the hopes the ends justify the means.

Cerberus is it's own organization. Tali's father and his group were independent.

Some people think it's perfectly okay for Cerberus to act in such a manner, so it's not a stretch to allow the researchers on the Alarei their experiments. But I'm not keen on what Cerberus does, and I'm not keen on what Tali's father was doing. If we justify it as a natural defense against possible war, then most any war crime can be justified in such a manner.

Not exactly my point. My point is whether Shepard has the right to tell the general populace sensitive information that could endanger the fleet. I don't know about you, but if I'm in a foreign country, I'm not going to assume that I can police their nation. I get tired of the United States doing that as it is.

Modifié par Collider, 10 juin 2010 - 08:27 .

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
How's that Batarian put it when you first arrive on Omega? "Thinks tend to explode around you?"

If people are going to put my Shepard in charge of anything, be prepared for things to explode around them.

Shepard is not in charge of the Admiralty Board's government.

But they did bring Shepard into the trial, so if things explode around them, that's just Shepard's style.

As for what right Shepard has to meddle in the affairs of other governments, by what right does any government have to commit a war crime? But that's the difference here, to some people, Rael's research was just the dirty aspect of war. To some people, it's a war crime. If you're to think the former, then it makes every sense to let the Admiralty Board handle it. If it's the latter, staying silent is just as well condoning what has been done.

And considering that Rael was an Admiral, was specific in his instructions that his research reach the hands of Xen and Gerrol, leads me to believe that the Admiralty Board is not working as a single body here. Shepard knowing that revealing the evidence would lead to a fractured fleet is a bit of metagaming here. The fact that is what happens shows what a fragile state the fleet is in at the moment.

But this is getting a bit beyond the original intent of why Shepard was even there. Tali was looking to defend herself against accusations of treason. As luck would have it, the developers were nice enough to give us two options in red and blue that told us that everything would be just fine if we picked either one of those for Tali's defense. In a game that's all about Shepard gaining the loyalty of his squadmates, it's reasonable to assume that Shepard would go through whatever means necessary to get that done. Where it all goes wrong is that in the process of trying to do right by Tali, he comes across something greater than just her trial. What Shepard wants to do with that information is the player's choice.

[Collider]

Pacifien wrote...
As for what right Shepard has to meddle in the affairs of other governments, by what right does any government have to commit a war crime?

You can't justify Shepard acting out of line just because the Rael and his team acted out of line. Two wrongs do not make a right. It was also not the Quarian government who committed the crime. It was one person on the side. One can't accuse an entire government of comitting a war crime if it was just one person's clandestine operation.

But that's the difference here, to some people, Rael's research was just the dirty aspect of war. To some people, it's a war crime. If you're to think the former, then it makes every sense to let the Admiralty Board handle it. If it's the latter, staying silent is just as well condoning what has been done.

That seems to me to be a false dichotomy.

Remaining silent is not condoning their actions. Remaining silent when they are still at large is condoning their actions. But they are not at large, they are dead. They cannot commit any more crimes, and they cannot atone or be punished any further.

I think you are forgetting that Shepard does not need to remain silent. After the trial, if you don't release the evidence, you can tell the Admirals in private of what Tali's father did. That's exactly what Shepard should do instead of blurting it out to everyone. Shepard shouldn't take the reigns of a foreign government. The only reason he was there in the first place was because of Tali, and I don't think one person - Tali, is worth jeopardizing the entire Fleet over. Telling the admirals in private means that they can decide what to do with the knowledge - just like they should be able to. It is their government, Shepard doesn't have the right to act like he's above them and above their sovereignty.

And considering that Rael was an Admiral, was specific in his instructions that his research reach the hands of Xen and Gerrol, leads me to believe that the Admiralty Board is not working as a single body here.

That would be an assumption. I think it's more likely that Rael did the experiments in hope that the results would justify the means. If he succeeded, he would tell those two admirals.

Shepard knowing that revealing the evidence would lead to a fractured fleet is a bit of metagaming here. The fact that is what happens shows what a fragile state the fleet is in at the moment.

I think Shepard would know beforehand that this is sensitive information.

Modifié par Collider, 10 juin 2010 - 08:57 .

[RGFrog]

There's only one thing that matters here, especially since the gamer is playing the part, and that's what the ramifications are to sheppard and to shep alone.

Do you want to sex tali? you won't get there by betraying her da'

Do you want the possibility of having a unified quarian fleet watching your back when the reapers come, then that will determine your action.

Do you not give a flip about the quarians or bedding tali, then let the truth fly.

At this point in the game, unless you've already recruited Legion, all geth are evil to Shep. So, he's going to do what is best in that regard. If that includes knocking boots with tali, more the better. If you don't care and prefer a human romance then again what does it matter. Get the war a going.

Personally, the geth without saren are not a threat at all. But the geth again at the control of the quarian... that's another game all together.

[TheAwesomologist]

Here's a simpler reason for not giving up the evidence; Shepard is only concerned about 1 Quarian, and thats Tali. He's on a mission to stop the collectors, not solve Quarian politics. Tali says don't give up the evidence, then don't. He needs his crew to be at their best for the suicide mission. If that means protecting a war criminal then so be it. If Shepard can't stop the collectors (and the Reapers) who cares what the Quarians were experimenting on!



If Tali says "Sure give the evidence but you owe me a dozen milkshakes" then goddamnit you give the evidence and stop by the grocery store on the way out. The only thing that should matter is her loyalty. And the same goes with everyone else's loyalty. In fact my Paragon Shepard followed Zaeed at first until I later found out I could still save the factory workers and gain his loyalty.

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
*snip*
Remaining silent is not condoning their actions. Remaining silent when they are still at large is condoning their actions. But they are not at large, they are dead. They cannot commit any more crimes, and they cannot atone or be punished any further.

I don't think I can really argue the point any further without mentioning what happens when real life war criminals are dead, and I really just don't want to go there.

Collider wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
And considering that Rael was an Admiral, was specific in his instructions that his research reach the hands of Xen and Gerrol, leads me to believe that the Admiralty Board is not working as a single body here.

That would be an assumption. I think it's more likely that Rael did the experiments in hope that the results would justify the means. If he succeeded, he would tell those two admirals.

It's an assumption that Rael asked that the research be given to Xen and Gerrol? 'Cause that part he specifically does say in the game. It's an assumption that the Admiralty Board is not working as a single body? 'Cause all that Admiral in-fighting seemed pretty explicit to me.

But as far as I can gather, the issue seems to be 1) is it a war crime and 2) when is it a person's right to reveal a war crime? Perhaps if I felt governments weren't prone to blinding themselves with their own importance, I'd let them take care of whatever dirty secrets they manage by themselves. I mean, technically, the fleet's under martial law. And there's something to be said for ignorance is bliss, because I'm sure my own real life government isn't all niceties and proper form.

But maybe I just feel like sometimes you need to break the system to show how far it's gotten away from you. What gives me the right? Nothing gives me the right other than my own sense of honor.

[Daskworx]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

If one or the other isn't loyal, I don't think the confrontation even happens. More proof that only failures blow the trial.

Correcto! Not loyal = no confrontation!
Confrontation only occurs just after 2nd characters loyalty mission ends in success

[Sereaph502]

I'd hate to derail this further, but let me throw this out there.





So if you and one of your friends found evidence of what another one of your friend's father did, and you had the choice to show the evidence to the police and ruin your friendship regardless of him/her begging you not to show it, you'd take it?



Sounds like you'd have to have no heart and an icy void as a soul to me to do that.



Arguing with logic also doesn't bring up a countermeasure, because you'd still have no heart and an icy void as a soul

[Mars Nova]

Sereaph502 wrote...
So if you and one of your friends found evidence of what another one of your friend's father did, and you had the choice to show the evidence to the police and ruin your friendship regardless of him/her begging you not to show it, you'd take it?

It would depend on what exactly my friend's father did.  If he just took a candy bar from a store without paying for it, for example, I wouldn't say anything about that.  If he killed 15 people, on the other hand...

[Jack Package]

If you play Renegade and intend to do as much harm to the other species as possible then you should hand in the evidence beacuse it results in the flotilla breaking apart in many factions.

Otherwise, don't do it, unnecessary...

[Fl1pmode]

My first renegade Shepard has shouted down the Admirals into exonerating Tali. My paragon Shepard rallied the crowd to get the Admirals to drop the charges. My second renegade Shepard (still in ME1) will most likely lie to hide the evidence but get Tali exiled just for gameplay's sake to see how that affects the storyline in ME3.



Seems harsh but at least in none of the playthroughs will I purposely traumatize Tali.