3883 réponses à ce sujet

[Fexelea]

Actually the common take on that is "lucky", and it happens quite often.

[the_one_54321]

Taking three or four dives and wasting five minutes of a game is not "lucky." It's cheap.
*And the "often" part is precisely what I have never liked about this sport.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 27 juin 2010 - 12:53 .

[Fexelea]

But that's the very point I am making: if you play it, see kids playing it in back alleys with impromptu paper balls, watch lower level matches, follow international leagues, you understand what it is all about and how and why this happens... Those teams in the world cup have the heartstrings of entire nations in their hand. "Wasting time" when you are winning is just because you are aware of the responsibility that the shirt you wear signifies, and it is more important to leave it all in the field than to look proper. Referees often ignore and card the time wasters so it is a risk for the players doing it as well. It's all a gamble



A lucky goal against a good team by a bad one is not cheap, nor shameful (except for the good team). It's just lucky, and you will find no player who will tell you "oh I'm so ashamed that we beat Brazil by playing less than them". They will just be happy they won. I don't see why that's bad.

[DragonRageGT]

the_one_54321 wrote...

With that said, I probably just shouldn't be watching this "sport." Worse than losing is winning a game you didn't deserve. That's shameful.

Didn't deserve? Come on, even if they ate 10 minutes out of 120 minutes total. It was not in those 10 minutes that the match was won or lost! And yeah, you bet that if the US had the lead, they would do the same. Now, I am NOT talking about making a hit looking worse than it was to make time pass.

I am talking, withdraw from attacking and trying to keep the ball as much as they can, not risking the other team to take it and counter. That Ghana did too and did well as they have skilled players to do it.

I agree that the acting is awful but it is much worse when it goes like against Brazil and was mentioned even by Bob Bradley. That is the kind of acting that must be punished after the match by some commitee or something. A deliberate attempt to make the ref punish the other guy for something that isn't real.

When someone falls after a contact, just to win some time, it's usually late in the game, they're pretty tired and well, there was really some contact. To avoid that, the only way is to pressure without contact, forcing the other team to make mistakes in their passing. Trying to take the ball while risking a foul, usually doing it anyway, also gives the other guy the chance to lay down and rest a bit. Because it hurts like hell when it happens for real. If you play this game since you're a kid, you'll likely know what's like when someone kick your shank with the tip of their shoe and full power! Or hit the upper side of your leg muscle with their knee.

[Fexelea]

The Kaka red card was ridiculous, but that is about faking an out-of-match agression, not about taking a dive and rolling holding your leg after you've been tackled. Exaggerating a tackle is one thing, pretending to be hit in the face when you were not is another.

[DragonRageGT]

I've just watched on the tv here how a huge group of people in New York got together to watch the game. I feel their pain. It happens too often to us as well. And this is how sport rivalry is built. It was Ghana that beat USA in 2006 too, right? And again? argh.. next Ghana x USA should be hot.

And some players of this Ghana team were World Champion of FIFA under 20, beating Brazil in the final! grrr.. heh But our real nemesis is France. After a win in 1958 we never beat France again in a World Cup, with 1986 being the most unfair result ever! And again in 1998 Final and 2006 in the Quarter Final.

Now, it took Uruguay some 40 long years to get back into a Quarter Final match. I hope that the USA is that persistent too!

Modifié par RageGT, 27 juin 2010 - 02:16 .

[the_one_54321]

Fexelea wrote...
A lucky goal against a good team by a bad one is not cheap, nor shameful (except for the good team). It's just lucky,
and you will find no player who will tell you "oh I'm so ashamed that  we beat Brazil by playing less than them". They will just be happy they won. I don't see why that's bad.

I'm not talking about scoring a lucky goal. We scored a huge lucky goal against England. I'm talking about taking dives. I'm talking about how every nation except ours seems to be perfectly ok with players pretending to be hurt even when their not just gain something for the team. Around here we call that cheating.

slimgrin wrote...
The good ol' U.S.A lost, yet again. Lets gather our dignity, congratulate the other team for once, quit making excuses, and move on.

Woah, buddy. I'm not making excuses. Nowhere have I said that "America lost because of [insert reason here]" unless that reason was that Ghana played better than us.
What I said is that Ghana played the last 15 minutes of the game without any dignity, and that is shameful. Dignity and shame being the opposite of each other after all.
And I've not said once that Ghana didn't deserve the victory. Where it came to talking about winning a game without deserving to win was just about play in soccer in general. Half the sport is a bunch of cheaters. It's well documented. If you have the weight of the eyes of an entire nation on your shoulders and you play without any dignity you're saying your nation doesn't need dignity to win. That's what the Ghana players said when they started diving to the ground grabing at phantom injuries to run down the clock. That's what the player said when he landed Kaka with a red card. And that is why I have never liked this sport, and that is why, even after all the excitement the USA has given me in this tournament, I'm still not sure I like this sport.
The thing about soccer that drives away so many fans of the nations like America that are not fully innitiated in it is that it is a game without any serious sportsmanship or class. It's a game where everyone is perfectly happy to see victories go due to theatrics.
I'll be cheering for America again in 4 years. I probably won't be watching any soccer in between now and then.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 27 juin 2010 - 03:49 .

[the_one_54321]

I'll just say that you all seem to love your football just the way it is, players taking cheap dives and all. And I'm not here trying to start any fights, so I guess I should just drop it. Tomorrow Mexico loses to Argentina and I have no more reason to watch this tournament anyway, so I have no need to get worked up over this. Turns out that soccer just is not the sport for people like me who care about sportsmanship as we do.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 27 juin 2010 - 04:01 .

[Valente11]

Ghana deserved every bit of their victory. They outplayed the US. Time wasting is an unfortunate part of the game. None of the goals were lucky. The ref was fair. The US played valiantly. Ghana was the better team.

[the_one_54321]

slimgrin wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I'll just say that you all seem to love your football just the way it is, players taking cheap dives and all. And I'm not here trying to start any fights, so I guess I should just drop it. Tomorrow Mexico loses to Argentina and I have no more reason to watch this tournament anyway, so I have no need to get worked up over this. Turns out that soccer just is not the sport for people like me who about sportsmanship as we do.

Come on...really? I love boxing, but I know there are cheap boxers. My favorite boxer isn't from America. In fact, none of my favorites have been from America ( like I am)

It doesn't matter where they are from. I root for the guy who's style I like, and who demonstrates sportsmanship.

Yeah, really. This is stuff that I already felt about soccer, just verified by an exciting run from America that ended with a final 15 minutes that took all the dignity out of the game.
I love boxing. There's a lot of national pride in boxing as well, but it's not a global tournament like the world cup is. Like you, I cheer for the guy I know fights well and fights fair. Thing is that the dirty fighters usually don't win. And they get caught because there's only two people in the ring. But what do you do when most of the entire sport is just fine with people playing cheap and taking dives? 

Maybe you and I should take this PMs if you want to keep discussing it. I don't want to keep derailing the thread.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 27 juin 2010 - 04:05 .

[Fexelea]

Ok, I understand that you are probably upset that your team lost. We all get that like. And we are all fanboys in the end (looking at you rage lol)

However, since you are taking to insulting the practices of a true worldwide sport and the habits within that are truly worldide, you are insulting us: the fans of that sport.

the_one_54321 wrote...
I'm not talking about scoring a lucky goal. We scored a huge lucky goal against England. I'm talking about taking dives. I'm talking about how every nation except ours seems to be perfectly ok with players pretending to be hurt even when their not just gain something for the team. Around here we call that cheating. 

It is irrelevant what a country who does not understand or play the sport on a significant scale wants to call it. Diving is not cheating: it's part of the game. Lucky goals happen and overtime last minite goals create unfair results, so players opt to win as much time as they can. This isn't cheating. Cheating is touching the ball with your hand, or faking a punch to the face.

the_one_54321 wrote...
What I said is that Ghana played the last 15 minutes of the game without any dignity, and that is shameful.

I disagree with this statement, Ghana played the cards it could. US could have easily used that to their advantage, as a "diver" can and is often ignored by the referee, which removes a player from the field and gives the other team a huge advantage.

the_one_54321 wrote...
Half the sport is a bunch of cheaters. It's well documented.

I would like to see that documentation and whatever it is that backs your claims that footballers are 50% cheaters.

the_one_54321 wrote...
If you have the weight of the eyes of an entire nation on your shoulders and you play without any dignity you're saying your nation doesn't need dignity to win. That's what the Ghana players said when they started diving to the ground grabing at phantom injuries to run down the clock.

No. Your non-definition of dignity by contrasting it only to what you see as cheating is a fallacy, and your lack of understanding of the sport and the stakes do nothing more for it. Instead of insulting Ghana's fans by saying that they don't need dignity to win, maybe you should look at your own team and see them do the same: letting another player get a yellow card for his own clumsiness at 1:32.

the_one_54321 wrote...
That's what the player said when he landed Kaka with a red card.

A theatrical dive and faking a punch to the face are not the same thing by miles.

the_one_54321 wrote...
And that is why I have never liked this sport, and that is why, even after all the excitement the USA has given me in this tournament, I'm still not sure I like this sport.

This is the point: you don't like the sport, you like your country to play it. We follow the sport and feel our countries playing it, and we understand how it works. There are many unfair instances, like Maradona's hand goal, but we understand the difference between cheating and "trying it" because we actually enjoy the balance.

the_one_54321 wrote...
The thing about soccer that drives away so many fans of the nations like America that are not fully innitiated in it is that it is a game without any serious sportsmanship or class.

I'm sorry, what countries would that be? Aside from isolationist USA (who purposefully created isolationist sports!) I see many countries embracing football and getting good at it. Your comments about sportsmanship and class are absurd and unfounded, and come from your narrow minded views alone.

the_one_54321 wrote...
It's a game where everyone is perfectly happy to see victories go due to theatrics.

This is not true. That we understand the role theatrics play does not mean we encourage them nor accept or condone them.

the_one_54321 wrote...
I'll be cheering for America again in 4 years. I probably won't be watching any soccer in between now and then.

And this is why you will not understand the sport anymore then than now. And this is why the US isn't getting better when African nations are.

Modifié par Fexelea, 27 juin 2010 - 04:18 .

[the_one_54321]

Holy Crap. First, please clean up your quotes because that's darn near impossible to read.



Second, the yellow the guy that tripped Altidore, is the only thing I'll talk about because it's related to the actual game that was played.

The guy didn't trip Altadore on purpose and he hit the turf because he ended up fumbling his feet, but the video makes it completely clear that the guys legs knocked into Altidores and caused him to trip. That was not a dive, and that was a yellow card by regulation rules.



I think the rest of the world plays soccer with very little class or dignity. I think it's unsportsmanlike. If you find that insulting, I'm sorry, but it doesn't change what I think about it. If you want to keep talking about it, send a PM between slimsmile and I and we can keep talking about it. We should not continue to derail the thread.

[Fexelea]

The html wasnt displaying properly now it is.



The US player tripped himself! What legs are you talking about? Slow motion shows the play and the guys doensn't touch him at all.



What you think of the rest of the world is just in line with your america-centric views and ignorance of a worldwide sport.



If you want to keep things in PM, then don't post insulting "America is the only one with dignity" and "Soccer has no sportmanship" comments on a public thread that is for those who enjoy the sport.

[the_one_54321]

What are you talking about? He knocks Altidore's heel with his shin from behind. (it happens between 1:30 and 1:31) Then Altidore fumbled his own feet and went down. It wasn't an intentional trip, but that was still a regulation yellow card.

Edit:
Forget the  comment about theater if you already read it. I'm trying to not be picking a fight here.

Look, I already didn't like soccer. For all the same reasons I already listed. I started getting excited about this tournament becuase America was putting up a really exciting show, and giving us some really great play and amazing finishes. All that happened now was that this game reminded me about everything I already didn't like about soccer.

And that is my opinion of it, full stop. If my opinion insults you, I'm sorry, but that doesn't change my opinion or make it go away. I don't like soccer, because it is played the way it is played, and the fans like this and defend it. Today reminded me of that.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 27 juin 2010 - 04:47 .

[Fexelea]

You are demonstrating lack of knowledge of the sport: You don't get a card because the other player's leg came towards yours whilst you where both running. There was no intention to foul, there was no thrusting of knee, and he was just running to catch up. The other guy wouldn't have fallen if he hadn't tripped by himself, which is what made the referee think that the Ghana player had fouled.



Go watch whatever it is you like and let us enjoy football then.

[the_one_54321]

You act as though Altidore did it on purpose or that he could have told the ref to take the card back. The guy knocked him down and a card came up. It wasn't theatrics. You can go in for a slide tackle and not intend to foul, but end up fouling anyway. It's how the feet fall. Anyway, I made a more peaceful edit to my last post.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 27 juin 2010 - 04:53 .

[Fexelea]

I'm acting as showing that this stuff happens in every team and there is no dignity to be discussed and the US has no moral high ground. And yes, players do affect when a card is shown by their reactions



Your opinion does not offend me, you are free to be of the opinion that all black people are morons and that will not insult me. When you post nonesense on a public forum, however, you can expect to have responses that highlight it.



You are missing the vital point that USA didn't show any amazing play or unprecedented spectacle. The reason you were interested is because they excited YOU. Because you want them to win. So coming here to say that they are the only ones who play with sportsmanship will be met with resistance by those of us who can actually see the entire spectrum and recognize what the sport is about and the true great teams out there, beyond those that we cheer for.



I have seen thousands of matches, and I certainly don't think that someone who follows one team once every four years knows better or has an opinion worthy of respect (respect the person's right is not the same as respect the opinion). So keep your opinion, as you are free to do, but as long as you chose to make statements for that opinion you can expect to be met with counter views.