52 réponses à ce sujet

[Seph696]

Heya there....So here's the deal.
I want to start a rogue char and i have done my search about rogue builds buuut.
All is blur in my poor head
Dex give you better survivability through sky high defence but the damage you do is subpar to a cun build, also the att rating is pretty higher but the crit chance and arp rating is lower.
Cun on the other hand gives you sky high damade through high arp and crit (coupled with the bards song of courage if im right) but att rating and defence are low.
All good till now? (Dw rogue not archer in case i have to tell you guys )

So to help you help me....i dont plan on a solo run (i always enjoy the game with full party) but that doesnt mean i like getting 2shoted nor if i miss like hell (i hate it on my 2handed warr at the first levels but then he had become a beast) but either to do low dmg. I mean we play for fun are we not?

So dex or cun? And in every guide here in the forums a rogue always takes assassins spec but the second would be? Dualist for Dex and Bard for Cun?
Or it doesnt matter?

Sorry but in fear of gimping the char i always stoped from starting a rogue and its the only class i havent play so any usefull conversations as to what to choose would be much welcome.

Ty in advance.

Modifié par Seph696, 11 juin 2010 - 01:45 .

[DWSmiley]

That sums it up. Dex for excellent defense and attack ratings or cunning for more damage and better songs. My preference for a dw rogue is dex duelist/assassin cuz s/he's getting up close and personal with the beasties. That's my current pc and at level 12 she was able to take out a Brecilian revenant and skeleton archer pretty much on her own after the rest of group dropped.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 11 juin 2010 - 02:44 .

[MindYerBeak]

Why not do 2:1 for Cunning/Dex until you bring your Dex up to 20 then pour everything into Cunning? Dex can also be boosted via the Fade and equipment.

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

did you mean 30 dex? w/e though.



I personally go +2 dex, +1 cun on most levels if playing a rogue.

[soteria]

I usually just do 2:1 cun/dex or vice versa. Either build is pretty strong. If you enjoy moving around in combat to get in position to backstab and using a lot of stuns and group synergy, cunning is probably better. If you prefer a tougher, more in-your-face fighting style that just grabs the occasional backstab when it's convenient, dex is probably better. I tend to use a lot of stuns and group buffs/debuffs so the attack rating isn't an issue and I'm almost always backstabbing, so I prefer cunning, myself.

[d3c0yBoY]

I'm partial to Cun builds for DW. I play on the xbox so the bug fix prevents me from doing the same on Archery. A natural 26 dex (including fade and racial) will nab you the requirements (Expert, Momentum) while the rest will go into Cun. Lethality, Exploit Weakness, and Bard Songs have amazing synergy and increase the overall dps of your group. I shy away from activated abilities since runes don't work with them.

Modifié par d3c0yBoY, 11 juin 2010 - 03:42 .

[Seph696]

Hey thx for the replies all .

I'll stand to what soteria said about play style.Well the thing is i enjoyed all of my warr chars (unfortunately my hdd crashed and lost everything so im starting anew) and so i prefer a more straight forward combat style.
Which ultimately means the dex build rogue might be best as soteria suggests. Well...we'll see

Keep it up guys and ty again :).

Ps: And oh yeah i ike using activited abilities but thats a little too much for a rogue not?

Modifié par Seph696, 11 juin 2010 - 05:53 .

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

not really, you just have to space them out more. my Dalish knows the bottom tree of DW, and she can use them often with momentum going if she spaces them out a little.

[DWSmiley]

DW talents are an embarrassment of riches. It’s quite effective for a rogue to leave momentum on all the time but I like to maximize my use of active talents so I start with a series of those, then turn on momentum and eventually get another round of the actives. But it’s really just a matter of which flavour of awesome you prefer


Not always running momentum also gives you the option of doing a few ranged attacks while the beasties close - and your mage drops a fireball on them or Shale hurls a rock or whatever...

Modifié par DWSmiley, 11 juin 2010 - 05:58 .

[beancounter501]

My next playthrough is going to be a full strength Rogue wearing Massive Armor like Cailen or Wardner Commander or even a mix of gear. Charge in hit someone with the Punisher Attack for an easy kill. Ripotse/Dirty Fight another mob for a stun then backstab away. Or just wear a ton of crit gear for straight on crit attacks. Plus poison, stealth and paralyze runes for lots of stuns and free backstabs. Should be fun and very strong.



Hmm, I wonder what is the highest crit rate a Rogue character can get?

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

probably pretty high. Lethality is 10%, Find Vitals with the fix in Awk is another 10% I think. there's a fix for the player warden to get a default starting 3% chance. Taking Assassin is another 2.5%, and we're already hitting "a crit every fourth strike." ew XD. what else is there, peeps? now I'm curious.

bard's Song of Courage as well.

Modifié par yasuraka.hakkyou, 11 juin 2010 - 07:11 .

[beancounter501]

From what I can see:



Base Crit: 3 (With a mod fix)

Lethality: 10

Combat Movement: 2

Assassin: 2.5

Dual Weld Expert: 2.5

Veshialle War Axe: 5

Rose Thorn Dagger: 5

Shadow Belt: 3 (Wardens Keep)

Pushback Strikers: 5



Base Crit Rate of: 38



Per Weapon you get:



Veshaille Base Crit: 1.6

Rose Thorns Base Crit: 4.8



For a Main Hand Crit rate of almost 40% off hand almost 53%. Backstabbing totally optional



Or you could sub in Imperial Edge Long Sword for the Rose Thorn. Has a lower crit rate, but higher dmg. The whole idea would be to spam talents and rack up massive criticals. Without bothering to Flank.



Of course if you have a Bard in the group you could get in even higher crit rate.



Throw in the Crit Dmg boosting gear and you should be a death machine.

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

There's Find Vitals and Shadow Striking in Awk as well, giving you 10% (with a mod fix) and 5%, respectively.

actually, scratch that. who actually wants to Awk at this point?

Modifié par yasuraka.hakkyou, 11 juin 2010 - 07:38 .

[soteria]

I've never been that big on boosting base crit on a rogue--dirty fighting with momentum up means 100% crit long enough to finish most normal enemies. Maybe I should try it before I knock it, though.

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

This might actually be the route I take on my DNF rogue, insanely high crit rate.

[Random70]

While 'Max Crit' mode is a very powerful setup for a talent-spamming DW warrior, it's much less optimal for a Rogue. Instead, maximizing + Crit damage would probably serve you better as Rogues can initiate 'Auto-Crit' mode (ie Backstab) at will with Riposte, Dirty Fighting, and Stealth in addition to Paralyze runes & Poisons. Warriors can't pull this off and thus need the higher crit chance. That said, my non-crit optimized builds usually end up with a crit chance in the low 30's.
Rogues are also not well suited to talent spamming as...
* Less WIL per level than Warriors
* No fatigue bonus from Powerful
* Feast of the Fallen, from a practical standpoint, is nowhere near as good as Deathblow (Tip: Disabling that 'Forced Deathblows' mod helps here somewhat)
* Generally more talent constrained such that it will be much later in the game before they can fill out the DW weapon tree compared to warriors.

As to the original question - STR or DEX are both very strong setups in their own right, equally effective in either Party or Solo runs. CUN builds can do a lot of damage...if your party is geared around making them effective. Attempting to Solo one of these, while possible, is an exercise in frustration.

Modifié par Random70, 12 juin 2010 - 04:41 .

[soteria]

Is there a mod to disable deathblows altogether? Fights would be less cinematic, but they're killer to rogue dps, imo, since it's so easy to get a deathblow with momentum and backstabs.

[Seph696]

Wow this is getting interesting.
So with +crit chance gear then a rogue can be turned into a meatwagon even when not backstabbing.
That i want to see.
Random70 ty for pointing this out and thankfuly i dont plan on spamming that much but i dont like to backstab all the time either

Modifié par Seph696, 11 juin 2010 - 08:22 .

[thepiebaker]

i always choose a ranger for my rogue, having the animal companions is worth it

[Random70]

soteria wrote...

Is there a mod to disable deathblows altogether? Fights would be less cinematic, but they're killer to rogue dps, imo, since it's so easy to get a deathblow with momentum and backstabs.

The 'Forced Deathblows' mod actually has a minimal version. According to the description it disables deathblows with the exception of certain bosses.

[Kalcalan]

You need 52 points in DEX for a Rogue in Awakening (Flicker). Putting the rest in CUN allows you to skip some ranks in talents and make backstabs way more effective (stealth and stun, rinse and repeat: watch your foes die). The rest is gravy.



The DEX path is for a solo Rogue or a more straightforward Rogue "fighter" (a backstabber is much more effective though it depends on your style).

[Undying Reaver]

yeh my guy is Dex, so dodging is through the roof, im not that bothered about Cun although as previously stated most levels are +2 on Dex and +1 on Cun, just to get it about right

[beancounter501]

Lots of comments here! First let me put out a disclaimer - I have not had a single Rogue in my party past level 10. There - so buyer beware if you follow my next theory.


With that said maxing out crit rate makes a LOT of sense because of the following:
1. Rogues get several special talents that boost crit rate. Much more so then warriors. Lethality is +10, Assassin is + 2.5. There are no draw backs to either one. Unlike precise striking which takes a LONG time to get a really big crit rate boost. Plus it slows down your attack speed.

2. Rogues have a a ton of gear that is rogue specific that boost crit rate. Katriels Gloves, push back strikers. All Rogue specific gear.

3. Rogues do not get a Deathblow type talent to allow talent spam. They get Feast of the Fallen - but that is not until level 16 at the absolute earliest.  And not nearly as good.

4. Flanking gives a lot of bonuses + auto backstabs. But it takes TIME to position. Plus it means the guy that is occuying your Rogues target is not killing him quickly enough. Really, by the time you get in backstab position a DPS warrior would have already killed his target. My 4 warrior party was blasting through groups. No time to get a little backstab in.

5. Rogues get some special talents like dirty fighting and riposte that allow auto back stabs. BUT, is it better to spend one round throwing out dirty fighting and then another couple of attacks getting free backstabs vs throwing out a flurry that will crit for 2 out of 4 attacks? Even combat stealth, which gives you a free backstab means that it is two or three seconds you are not attacking. DPS is not some theortical best attack sequence. It is how much pain your character can dish out in the shortest amount of time once you spot a target. That is a big difference.

So anyways, I really hope to explore all the different angles in my next playthrough.

Modifié par beancounter501, 12 juin 2010 - 12:36 .

[soteria]

1,2. True, they do.

3. Also true, though I've never felt they needed to spam talents as much. In theory, they're far superior in any situation that doesn't allow Deathblow to kick in, such as tougher bosses. I'll address the "in theory" part in point 5.

4. It could be practice or it could just be my perception, but I've found it really takes me very little time at all to get in position to backstab. If I'm not in position, I use a special, same as a warrior would.

5. Sometimes I think that the fact that I don't use potions makes my playstyle fundamentally different, similar to how Random70 finds the game different soloing. To me, stunning an enemy and killing them during the stun is vastly superior to using a special + a couple autoattacks. From my perspective, keeping the enemy more or less constantly stunned is a virtue in and of itself already, and the backstabs are gravy. On point 3: I say "in theory" because in practice, most of the tougher bosses are the dragons, which are extremely unforgiving to anyone who tries to melee without healing and/or massive armor. I'm sure it's doable, but I find using ranged attacks to be much more consistently repeatable without healing.

Combat stealth shouldn't be costing you two or three seconds to use. I set "self being attacked by melee, activate stealth" in tactics, and the stealth/backstab is virtually instant. Even doing it yourself shouldn't cause an interruption.

[beancounter501]

On number 4 - Any Rogue that tried to spend any time getting into position behind a target of a DPS warrior is completely wasting their time. Unless it is a boss level target. White or Yellow targets are dead to fast. Unless your warrior is some wimpy Dex S&S. Or you have the classic tank taunting 4 or 5 targets. But - what is the rest of the party doing? I think a lot of Rogue parties are filled with crappy characters to make the Rogue better. A waste.



5, Stunning is good. Don't get me wrong. Killing is better. Dead guys don't do any dmg. So while you can spend your stamina stunning a target I think it is better spent killing them. Dirty Fighting is 25 Stamina, Flurry is 40. You can stun and then auto attack or just straight up kill with the Flurry - In theory:).



Gah, I just need to start my Rogue party.