52 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerdage]

beancounter501 wrote...

On number 4 - Any Rogue that tried to spend any time getting into position behind a target of a DPS warrior is completely wasting their time. Unless it is a boss level target. White or Yellow targets are dead to fast. Unless your warrior is some wimpy Dex S&S. Or you have the classic tank taunting 4 or 5 targets. But - what is the rest of the party doing? I think a lot of Rogue parties are filled with crappy characters to make the Rogue better. A waste.

5, Stunning is good. Don't get me wrong. Killing is better. Dead guys don't do any dmg. So while you can spend your stamina stunning a target I think it is better spent killing them. Dirty Fighting is 25 Stamina, Flurry is 40. You can stun and then auto attack or just straight up kill with the Flurry - In theory:).

Gah, I just need to start my Rogue party.

A well timed stun from an assassin can refund that stamina plus some, bought me extra sweeps/whirlwinds quite a few times.

Modifié par nerdage, 12 juin 2010 - 01:49 .

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
2. Rogues have a a ton of gear that is rogue specific that boost crit rate. Katriels Gloves, push back strikers. All Rogue specific gear.

Unlike Warriors, Rogues can activate 'Auto-Crit' mode (i.e. Backstab) nearly at will, meaning Crit chance is not nearly as important as Crit Damage. I'd never trade my Red Jenny's for Pushback Strikers.

beancounter501 wrote...
5. Rogues get some special talents like dirty fighting and riposte that allow auto back stabs. BUT, is it better to spend one round throwing out dirty fighting and then another couple of attacks getting free backstabs vs throwing out a flurry that will crit for 2 out of 4 attacks? Even combat stealth, which gives you a free backstab means that it is two or three seconds you are not attacking. DPS is not some theortical best attack sequence. It is how much pain your character can dish out in the shortest amount of time once you spot a target. That is a big difference.

A Dag / Dag Rogue w/ Momentum is landing an attack every .7 seconds. So within the 4 second stun window of Dirty Fighting or Riposte, you can land 5.7 attacks, all of which are guaranteed crits. In addition, your hapless victim has lost all of his defense from his DEX stat making him easier to hit and he's standing there drooling (i.e. not attacking) while you stab him into oblivion.  And your runes fire on backstabs...

An Ax / Dag Rogue w/ Momentum attacks every .9 seconds for 4.44 attacks per stun window - with runes, still better than Flurry. And bear in mind that a STR Rogue in Dragonbone plate w/ Momentum + Duelling running will have close to 50% fatigue...

By and large, save Flurry & Punisher for the non-stunnables: Dragons, Drakes, Revenants, Golems, Shades, Wraiths, Desire Demons, Rage Demons, and Arcane Horrors. All but the first three can be knocked down w/ Punisher

[Kalcalan]

Good points Random70.



Actually I think all a Rogue needs is Riposte and Momentum. The other Dual Wielding options are more suited for a Warrior (stamina wise). That is of course if you're going for a backstabber (and yes a backstabber requires some micromanagement but it's really worthwhile damage wise).

[soteria]

On number 4 - Any Rogue that tried to spend any time getting into position behind a target of a DPS warrior is completely wasting their time. Unless it is a boss level target. White or Yellow targets are dead to fast. Unless your warrior is some wimpy Dex S&S. Or you have the classic tank taunting 4 or 5 targets. But - what is the rest of the party doing? I think a lot of Rogue parties are filled with crappy characters to make the Rogue better. A waste.

Maybe. I've found my warriors tend to move around in combat a surprising amount, especially in a melee-heavy group. For some reason, sometimes an auto-attacking warrior will move after being told to activate a special, and the time difference in a meeting engagement is pretty much negligible. I'd even say the rogue has a slight advantage at times. If you're charging an enemy who is also charging, if he's targeting you everything is fine. But, if he's targeting someone else, he'll run past you, and your special might not kill him. The rogue, on the other hand, lands dirty fighting and kills the enemy, or, if he runs by, is automatically in position to backstab. Punisher kills white enemies pretty fast, but I don't know that it's any faster than dirty fighting + backstabs. I've never timed it; maybe I should.

[beancounter501]

Well I can say I am worried about a theory if both Soteria and Random start picking it apart! But I still stick by my guns. Why not boost your crit rate? A 40 to 50 crit rate which is very easy to hit for a Rogue means you do not have to HAVE a Stun. You can start hitting right out of the gate. And half of those hits will be a critical. Ripotse has a 20 second cooldown. Dirty Fighting has a 25 second cooldown. Combat steal is a 10 second cooldown with only 1 crit. Who cares if you can drop two white mobs in 20 seconds. Not impressive. Why not get in someones face and start crit attacking?

Modifié par beancounter501, 13 juin 2010 - 02:15 .

[Heather Cline]

Personally I prefer cunning. Get your dex up to 36, and leave it there Pour enough points into strength to get the best light armor in the game which is wade's drakeskin armor. Rest goes into cunning. You have a tier that gets you up to evade. Once you have evade you're like quick lightning, hard to hit and deadly as sin.

Cunning is best for powerful hits and strikes, especially when you get the the talent that replaces your strength for cunning which allows your cunning to take over for damage. Strength is only good for armor for Rogues.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...

Well I can say I am worried about a theory if both Soteria and Random start picking it apart! But I still stick by my guns. Why not boost your crit rate? A 40 to 50 crit rate which is very easy to hit for a Rogue means you do not have to HAVE a Stun. You can start hitting right out of the gate. And half of those hits will be a critical. Ripotse has a 20 second cooldown. Dirty Fighting has a 25 second cooldown. Combat steal is a 10 second cooldown with only 1 crit. Who cares if you can drop two white mobs in 20 seconds. Not impressive. Why not get in someones face and start crit attacking?

Aren't you the one who keeps saying auto attack is boring?

The idea being that when a Rogue's opponent is paralyzed or stunned, not only is said enemy not fighting back and is easier to hit but also for the duration you have a 100% crit chance - and Rogues have multiple methods of activating this mode.

So if the choice is between say, Gift of the Grey (5% crit chance) or a Crow Dagger (15% crit damage) or perhaps Pushback Strikers (5% crit chance) or Red Jenny's (15% crit damage) always take the damage. Just by switching the two pieces of gear listed here you've lost 10% crit chance from basic auto attacks - but you can still stun / paralyze for multiple criticals, which now hit 30% harder. That's a bigger boost than MoD...

Edit: Exploit Weakness only works on Backstabs, not regular crits.

Modifié par Random70, 13 juin 2010 - 07:05 .

[Phaelducan]

Extreme builds, no matter which route you go, always result in overkill. You will get to the point with either a dex or cunning build, that one sequence of attacks will kill any non-boss in the game. High end DW Rogue with good equipment can kill elites in one sequence even on NM.



It isn't your damage output that will limit your ability to kill enemies, it's staying vertical long enough to close to melee range.



Also, I *think* that there is a hard-cap on bonus to damage from attributes. I'm not noticing any appreciable increase at all on my archer going from dexterity 109-121 with accuracy up.

[beancounter501]

Random70 wrote...


The idea being that when a Rogue's opponent is paralyzed or stunned, not only is said enemy not fighting back and is easier to hit but also for the duration you have a 100% crit chance - and Rogues have multiple methods of activating this mode.

I generally find it is a waste of time and stamina to Stun a single white mob.  Unless you are also doing dmg like with Shield Pummel.  Far quicker to just straight smash him.  For that I think a high crit rate would be more useful.  Plus, I really don't want to waste money on poisons for a white.  Even three paralyze runes only have a 15% chance to stun.  You can get a much higher crit rate then that with the right gear and talents. 

Random70 wrote...
So if the choice is between say, Gift of the Grey (5% crit chance) or a Crow Dagger (15% crit damage) or perhaps Pushback Strikers (5% crit chance) or Red Jenny's (15% crit damage) always take the damage. Just by switching the two pieces of gear listed here you've lost 10% crit chance from basic auto attacks - but you can still stun / paralyze for multiple criticals, which now hit 30% harder. That's a bigger boost than MoD...

I somewhat agree with you on that.  But, there is a cap of 100% dmg.  At least I think it is 100.  You already start with 50 and Rose Thorn and Vershaille will take you to 90.  If you are a strength Rogue either Warden Commander or Cailens Armor will take you past the cap.  At that point I think it would be better to boost crit rate.  

A lot of the crit boosting is through talents.  The only thing you would want to take that you would not normally get is Lethality for the +10 crit rate.  Besides, a lot of the crit boosting gear is top notch stuff.  Veshaille and Rose Thorn.  I would probably pass on the Pushback Strikes and Red Jenny since I would want to get the Set Bonus for both Warden & Cailens.  Actually, a str Rogue would probably want Cailens for the Huge -25 Fatigue.  Or maybe Evon + Wade Superior Dragonscale.

Modifié par beancounter501, 13 juin 2010 - 01:43 .

[soteria]

I'll just make one final argument for the more traditional rogue, before leaving you alone: you haven't played one past level 10. If you're going to evaluate how a rogue plays, I suggest you try a more traditional build through to the end before throwing the concept out.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
I somewhat agree with you on that.  But, there is a cap of 100% dmg.  At least I think it is 100.  You already start with 50 and Rose Thorn and Vershaille will take you to 90.  If you are a strength Rogue either Warden Commander or Cailens Armor will take you past the cap.  At that point I think it would be better to boost crit rate. 

The total cap is 350%: 150% from crit / backstab and 200% from gear. You won't have to worry about the cap unless using the obscenely overpowered gear from Awakening.

beancounter501 wrote...
A lot of the crit boosting is through talents.  The only thing you would want to take that you would not normally get is Lethality for the +10 crit rate. 

By all means take Lethality (I always do). It's just not a priority (except for CUN). All I'm saying is that a well built Rogue will end up with ~ 1 in 3 chance to crit anyway, in addition to the activated abilites without going to extreme crit chance maximization with items like Pushback, Gift of Grey or Shadow Belt

beancounter501 wrote...
I would probably pass on the Pushback Strikes and Red Jenny since I would want to get the Set Bonus for both Warden & Cailens.  Actually, a str Rogue would probably want Cailens for the Huge -25 Fatigue.  Or maybe Evon + Wade Superior Dragonscale.

A STR Rogue would want Honnleath, WC armor, and Cailan's boots & gloves for some filthy crits. If you're that concerned about Stamna, leave them at Veridium / Red Steel until later on. The +5 HP regen from Cailan's set would be nice if you're running Tainted Blade, but TB doesn't make a lot of sense for a high STR, low CUN build.

[Rolenka]

I don't like missing. It's frustrating.

That's why my rogue has 22 Cunning for Deft Hands/Stealth, enough Strength for light harmor and the rest into Dexterity.

Modifié par Rolenka, 13 juin 2010 - 07:23 .

[beancounter501]

Random70 wrote...

beancounter501 wrote...
I somewhat agree with you on that.  But, there is a cap of 100% dmg.  At least I think it is 100.  You already start with 50 and Rose Thorn and Vershaille will take you to 90.  If you are a strength Rogue either Warden Commander or Cailens Armor will take you past the cap.  At that point I think it would be better to boost crit rate. 

The total cap is 350%: 150% from crit / backstab and 200% from gear. You won't have to worry about the cap unless using the obscenely overpowered gear from Awakening.

beancounter501 wrote...
A lot of the crit boosting is through talents.  The only thing you would want to take that you would not normally get is Lethality for the +10 crit rate. 

By all means take Lethality (I always do). It's just not a priority (except for CUN). All I'm saying is that a well built Rogue will end up with ~ 1 in 3 chance to crit anyway, in addition to the activated abilites without going to extreme crit chance maximization with items like Pushback, Gift of Grey or Shadow Belt

beancounter501 wrote...
I would probably pass on the Pushback Strikes and Red Jenny since I would want to get the Set Bonus for both Warden & Cailens.  Actually, a str Rogue would probably want Cailens for the Huge -25 Fatigue.  Or maybe Evon + Wade Superior Dragonscale.

A STR Rogue would want Honnleath, WC armor, and Cailan's boots & gloves for some filthy crits. If you're that concerned about Stamna, leave them at Veridium / Red Steel until later on. The +5 HP regen from Cailan's set would be nice if you're running Tainted Blade, but TB doesn't make a lot of sense for a high STR, low CUN build.

Thanks for the tips!  Seems like the cutoff for + crit dmg is much higher then I thought.  I am just trying to find a Rogue build that would be fun for me.  Hence, why I have never taken a Rogue past level 10.  Sneaking about is fun every now and then.  Constantly microing to flank is just not my thing.  No matter what RPG it is, I really have the patience for Rogue flanking.  I am really glad they built a number of ways to get around that in DA.

Ha, a lot of times I am playing late at night (have to wait until the little one goes to bed.  A three year old ensures that there is no gaming during the day!  The wife ensures that I can only game a couple of nights a week.  Even though I love it when when one of her shows are new and I can game!)  I can not be bothered with sneaking and setting up traps.

What does everyone think about the Ranger spec?  I like the concept from a role playing aspect.  Maybe a Ranger/Duelist.  I really don;t like the Bard class(Even though they were a lot of fun in NWN2) and for some bizarre reason I do not like Assassin from a Role Playing aspect.  Always play a good hero type character.

@Soteria - I don't mind people picking apart my ideas.  As my wife will tell ya, I like to argue sometimes.  And she will tell you I like to argue even when my idea is wrong.  Strangely, I am almost always wrong in her book. 

Ahh, just realized I totally hijacked the thread.  But that is the way of the internet.

[soteria]

Ranger is strong--good damage, good utility. My spider was hitting for ~70 damage a swing against Cauthrien's guards. Some players will do a little exploit that allows them, via tactics, to have their pets use abilities that normally wouldn't be available (like overwhelm). Song of Courage *might* give more damage (I doubt it), but it's kinda boring imo.

[beancounter501]

OK, in my four warrior party I respecced Leliana as a strength Dual Weld Rogue Ranger/Duelist. Even at level 17, she did not have nearly enough talent points to get every thing I wanted. I think she had two Ranger Talents and no Duelist talents. Equiped her with Vershaille, Rose of Thorns, Evons and Wades Superior Dragon Scale. In the first room I sent her in solo stealth and she got in perfect position behind one of the Quarni Warriors. She opened up with a backstab which missed, the next two attacks hit and then she got stunned from Scatter shot and killed faster then the rest of the party could engage. Not a good sign.



So, the rest of team came in and mopped up. I chalked it up to bad luck and moved on to the next area. The zone where the mage sits up the stairs and you get hit by the archers and melee quarni. Once again, Leliana dropped fast. Like WTF fast. Like I did not even have time to drink a potion. Stun is the kiss of the death for her. Am I doing something wrong? She has a 30 armor but she drops so friggin fast. I looked at her base health and she is at least 80 points of from the lowest warrior - Sten. She has 175 to Stens 257. Oghren has 335 which is almost double. Serious hole in my strategy. Prehaps dex is the way to go. Not sure, or Rogues are just really weak when compared to a warrior. Or do they need a tank to surive?

[soteria]

Lurking on the boards...

I think I've said this in another thread, but I find sneaking in ahead and doing preemptive strikes like that to be spectacularly ineffective, as you found. It always *sounds* like a good idea, and I've wanted it to work so many times, but in practice actually attacking early like that is a good way to get killed most of the time, and to be honest I'm not sure a warrior would last that much longer in the same situation. You're putting a single character in a very exposed spot to be attacked by every single enemy in the room--not a good place to be unless you're a S&S templar warrior with high dex.

Sometimes I'll send a rogue in ahead to scout an area or lay traps, (not so much now that I know all the fights), but it's quicker and more efficient to just move everyone as a group. We agree that taunt is bad unless you're a bona fide tank, right? Well, being the first and only person in the room is just like taunting but without the healer and CC. To me, the value of stealth is in dropping aggro and quickly getting in position to backstab, not in pre-positioning the rogue and attacking.

If you *do* want to put your rogue in position behind a mage or something, this is what I do: send the rogue in, and get in position. Then, select your other three members, and manually move them forward as a group to attack. Once they have been sighted, select the whole party and have them attack the target. That way you split the attention of the enemies and get the advantage of stunning or killing an enemy early, but honestly that's more work than I'm willing to do most of the time.

[Rolenka]

Yeah, you have to learn to get into position, then send your other party members in, then start backstabbing. You should drop your target really quickly (I like to backstab, dirty fighting, backstab backstab backstab). The rest should now be on your tank. Have him Taunt, then start picking them off from behind.

[beancounter501]

OK, no arguments out of me on that one. A lone Rogue doing the opening strike from stealth is a poor idea unless the rest of the party is kicking down the door as well.

Just for fun I was able to solo the opening battle in that area with the main 2 Hand Warrior quite easily. Smite on the mage, followed by Sunder Arms = dead mage. Then a 2 Hand Sweep (Group Knockdown!) and sunder Armor = Dead Quarni Warrior. Then War Cry for another group knockdown. Mighty Blow + one or two auto attacks left another dead warrior. After that the Archers were more a nuisance then anything else. I guess that is one very big weak spot in a Rogue - No group CC. Plus no way to stop stun or knockdown. Unless you count a 400 HP Bear. Guess I should have summoned that to start! Ah, well. Learning experience.


@ Rolenka - Sorry I *hate* building a tank character.  I would rather try to make the whole party fairly tough then build a tank.  It drives me bonkers to exploit the poor AI with a tank.

Modifié par beancounter501, 14 juin 2010 - 02:42 .

[Last Darkness]

Why do I get the feeling most the people discussing crit rates here are former or current wow rogue players?



Stacking crit is pretty stupid on a rogue UNLESS your a Str rogue wearing heavy armor then you might as well be a warrior and get better results. A rogue isnt supposed to stab someone face to face and ignore their stuns and backstabs.

I garantee you 100% a DW rogue with or without momentum is going to do a ton more damage just by standing behind their target using their Automatic crit skill called "Backstab"

I swear im reading the post here and your all building rogues on the assumption it going to be the TANK.



Back to the origenal poster questions. Dex/Cun are equaly viable and its simply a judgement of how you want to play. Duel Daggers? Duel Mainhands? Heavy hitting main hand and dagger offhand? Twohanders? Those all play differently, do you wanna max DPS? Do you wanna have some survivability? Do you wanna buff your party? Each build does something different better.

Also remeber for all of them you only need 26 base dex then get 4 from the fade in circle tower to get 30 dex that will allow you to get all the talents you need unless you want to duel wield mainhanders then go for 36 dex. Just have a good tank in your party and work with them also I see so many people disreguard combat stealth that works wonders.



Reguardless

Always try and get 30 Cunning, about 20 Str and 30 Dex. That will give you the minums to get all your abilities and gear.



Also so you know the specilisations, Bard and Assassin abilitys are all based on cunning score while duelist and ranger have no ability scores their based on. (Also the blood abilitys can add a ton of damage to high cunning rogues).



Right now im using a weird rogue build plan of Duelest/ranger with twohanded weapons and im hitting for 40-70 damage at level 5 with my backstabs.



Though if this is your first rogue I suggest going the route of 2 Dex, 1 Cun each level and going duel daggers. This is the simplest build to use and works well till you learn to play the class better. I dont think anyone has mentioned it but daggers get half of their damage bonus from dex and the other from str so cun with this build helps too. Though if you wanna just be a dps nightmare go 2 cun/1 dex assassin/duelest.

[beancounter501]

Last Darkness wrote...

Why do I get the feeling most the people discussing crit rates here are former or current wow rogue players?

Stacking crit is pretty stupid on a rogue UNLESS your a Str rogue wearing heavy armor then you might as well be a warrior and get better results. A rogue isnt supposed to stab someone face to face and ignore their stuns and backstabs.
I garantee you 100% a DW rogue with or without momentum is going to do a ton more damage just by standing behind their target using their Automatic crit skill called "Backstab"
I swear im reading the post here and your all building rogues on the assumption it going to be the TANK.

Depends on your party.  If your party has a some wimpy tank character that is just good for taunting and holding agro - while the rest of the party attacks the hapless monsters then yes - just backstab.  Too bad you totally have to gimp another character to make your Rogue good.

But if your party has three dmg oriented warriors your backstabbing Rogue is going to be spending a lot of time with his thumb up his butt trying to get in postion to backstab.  And if no one is taunting his is going to draw a lot of aggro. 

Hence the discussion about building a more durable straight melee Rogue.  One who does not need to flank to start backstabbing/critting.  A more Warrior/Rogue type hybrid character.  Besides, you can still use Riptose/Dirty Fight and get auto crits.  This is after they are sitting on cooldown.

Even though stacking paralysis runes/poisons would make a good method as well.

[jonnyblueballs]

I never learned how to use a rogue. I wanted to open every locker so i gave Leliana all Cunning for the majority of the game. She was useless to me in a fight but i kept her around to open the boxes.

[Jestina]

You're probably better going dual warrior if you don't like babysitting which you pretty much have to do as a rogue. The AI is dumb and the majority of the time it sends a rogue head on into targets...much like a warrior except the rogue can't survive being played that way. I prefer dex myself with rogues.

[beancounter501]

With some 15 to 20 points of con(Fade or Gear or the old fashioned way by putting points to con) plus a decent AR (like what Random outlined - lots of testing and that is the best Rogue setup!), a high dex score (with the high attack and defense) your Rogue can actually do pretty well head on. Riptose, Dirty Fighting,Death Root Extract and Paralyze runes on your off hand weapon will give lots of opportunites for free backstabs.



The cunning Rogue would have a much tougher time.

[DWSmiley]

Indeed. My latest dw rogue with Felon's Coat, dueling and a champion's buff had defense of exactly dex+100 and armor over 20. So I stopped dex at 63 and put the rest into cunning. And I began to wonder if stealth was a net benefit to the party. It sets up an auto-crit but I hated to lose aggro because she was so durable.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 18 juin 2010 - 06:44 .

[Gecon]

I usually go for Dex 26, max Cun and Assassin. Leads to very good backstab damage and brilliant rogue skills, though the Rogue needs Heroic Offense buffs to hit anything and has hardly any defense at all. But I usually have no trouble compensating that.