15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Revan061 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

jtav wrote...

I find evolution interesting as well. The problem is that she didn't evolve, in the sense that I have no clue how she came to mistrust TIM enough to resign. I can speculate, but the game doesn't bother to tell me. Leaving aside the merits of the base decision, is there any evidence prior to that moment to suggest she's the sort of person for whom using the research would feel like a betrayal?

I think that all of the characters evolved some degree through the game. 

AS far as Miranda turning on TIM... I think it is obvious that TIM overstepped his bounds one too many times... and loyalties shifted to the very charasmatic Sheppard across the board within the squad.    There was probably no "smoking gun" evidence that Miranda would make that shift... aside from realizing that she does indeed have a softer more human side. 

I think it was purposeful that the writers did not provide hard evidence leading into the end-game... because that made her refusal of TIM's order all the more potent and unexpected.  It was a "oh hell yeah!!!" moment in the game for me. 

Well, it was a "oh hell no" moment for me. Not her resigning itself, but her recommendation about the base which leads to it, and which was in no way at all a "cool moment". It was done on purpose, but IMO they did it because they didn't want their poster girl recommending a ruthless decision, and character consistency be damned.

Good point. I still want to live in my own little fantasy though lol. For me the resignation and the way it happened was just Miranda doing what she wanted for once, instead of what TIM was ordering her to do. For better or worse, she was using her own personal judgment.... I might just be trying too hard to make it make sense, though.

Yes....you do try too hard . Because what you say would mean that her ruthless streak was never real to begin with, but only a mask put on to satisfy her employer. To me, that ruthless streak, especially since it does have a limit as opposed to TIM's, seems pretty authentic. Apart from that, without her grey morality, she'd become far less interesting.  

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

What really gets me about the Collector Base decision is how inconsistent the morality is.

Keeping genophage cure research obtained via medical torture=Paragon
Keeping Collector base=Renegade

I agree destroying the base is the right thing to do, but that's because the alternative is giving it to TIM. The actual moral reasoning given is asinine.

I'd say it differently: that the alternative is to give it to TIM is the only reason why destroying the base deserves serious consideration. As for the actual moral inconsistency, I agree with you.

[Caihn]

Revan061 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Revan061 wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...
 
I think it was purposeful that the writers did not provide hard evidence leading into the end-game... because that made her refusal of TIM's order all the more potent and unexpected.  It was a "oh hell yeah!!!" moment in the game for me. 

This. I was so stoked to hear that bc I thought it was romance specific. I thought maybe my influence really changed something in the game. Then I hear that it happens regardless of loyalty, much less romance. For shame.

I think this decision is not predictable. It's impossible to me to predict how I would react facing such horror, and it's more difficult to predict how would react an another person. The writers have decided that Miranda would react that way and it bothers me not at all.About the influence, I know some don't want to believe Miranda could be influenced. But remember that even Miranda admits that Shepard has a strong influence on others. I agree that she wouldn't be as much influenced as the others but I think she could be a little.

I feel like anyone in a relationship will be influenced by that relationship, to varying degrees. For instance, my shep starts to see the practicality of certain ruthless actions over time. He still won’t kill if it isn’t necessary, but he does take more of a hardline stance against those that could potentially jeopardize the mission(Zaeed and Jack come to mind). I like to think that Miranda starts to realize the potential of helping others for reasons not important to the mission, but just because she feels it to be right. Realizing the potential and actually acting upon that realization are two very different things, though.

I like to think my Shepard is also influenced by Miranda. That could explain why he's less Paragon in ME2 than in ME1. Now he's a pure Paragade like her.

[Revan061]

Wait, what? pure paragade? Sure. Why not. But we share the Miri influence.

[jtav]

I'd class Miranda as Renegade or Renegon. She's mostly Renegade, but does have her Paragon moments. For one, I don't think Archer would survive long after she found out what he did to David. Unless he was truly vital, then she'd merely make him wish he were dead.

Modifié par jtav, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:23 .

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...

What really gets me about the Collector Base decision is how inconsistent the morality is.

Keeping genophage cure research obtained via medical torture=Paragon
Keeping Collector base=Renegade

I agree destroying the base is the right thing to do, but that's because the alternative is giving it to TIM. The actual moral reasoning given is asinine.

I'd say it differently: that the alternative is to give it to TIM is the only reason why destroying the base deserves serious consideration. As for the actual moral inconsistency, I agree with you.

Even if I would agree with you on the necessity to keep the base, I think neither Cerberus neither the Alliance are enough trustworthy to give them the base.

[Revan061]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Revan061 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

jtav wrote...

I find evolution interesting as well. The problem is that she didn't evolve, in the sense that I have no clue how she came to mistrust TIM enough to resign. I can speculate, but the game doesn't bother to tell me. Leaving aside the merits of the base decision, is there any evidence prior to that moment to suggest she's the sort of person for whom using the research would feel like a betrayal?

I think that all of the characters evolved some degree through the game. 

AS far as Miranda turning on TIM... I think it is obvious that TIM overstepped his bounds one too many times... and loyalties shifted to the very charasmatic Sheppard across the board within the squad.    There was probably no "smoking gun" evidence that Miranda would make that shift... aside from realizing that she does indeed have a softer more human side. 

I think it was purposeful that the writers did not provide hard evidence leading into the end-game... because that made her refusal of TIM's order all the more potent and unexpected.  It was a "oh hell yeah!!!" moment in the game for me. 

Well, it was a "oh hell no" moment for me. Not her resigning itself, but her recommendation about the base which leads to it, and which was in no way at all a "cool moment". It was done on purpose, but IMO they did it because they didn't want their poster girl recommending a ruthless decision, and character consistency be damned.

Good point. I still want to live in my own little fantasy though lol. For me the resignation and the way it happened was just Miranda doing what she wanted for once, instead of what TIM was ordering her to do. For better or worse, she was using her own personal judgment.... I might just be trying too hard to make it make sense, though.

Yes....you do try too hard . Because what you say would mean that her ruthless streak was never real to begin with, but only a mask put on to satisfy her employer. To me, that ruthless streak, especially since it does have a limit as opposed to TIM's, seems pretty authentic. Apart from that, without her grey morality, she'd become far less interesting.  

That is something I struggle with constantly. One of the disadvantages to trying to justify things that seem a little... off.

[Caihn]

jtav wrote...

I'd class Miranda as Renegade or Renegon. She's mostly Renegade, but does have her Paragon moments. For one, I don't think Archer would survive long after she found out what he did to David. Unless he was truly vital, then she'd merely make him wish he were dead.

Renegon maybe, renegade I don't agree.
Zaeed is renagade, not Miranda.

Modifié par Yannkee, 26 juillet 2010 - 01:34 .

[Revan061]

Yannkee wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...

What really gets me about the Collector Base decision is how inconsistent the morality is.

Keeping genophage cure research obtained via medical torture=Paragon
Keeping Collector base=Renegade

I agree destroying the base is the right thing to do, but that's because the alternative is giving it to TIM. The actual moral reasoning given is asinine.

I'd say it differently: that the alternative is to give it to TIM is the only reason why destroying the base deserves serious consideration. As for the actual moral inconsistency, I agree with you.

Even if I would agree with you on the necessity to keep the base, I think neither Cerberus neither the Alliance are enough trustworthy to give them the base.

If anyone is keeping the base, i would rather it be Shepard. So far s/he seems to be the only being in the galaxy working for the good of the galaxy.... wait. That doesn’t make sense. That only applies to my shep. But that doesn’t afffect my original point. 

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...

What really gets me about the Collector Base decision is how inconsistent the morality is.

Keeping genophage cure research obtained via medical torture=Paragon
Keeping Collector base=Renegade

I agree destroying the base is the right thing to do, but that's because the alternative is giving it to TIM. The actual moral reasoning given is asinine.

I'd say it differently: that the alternative is to give it to TIM is the only reason why destroying the base deserves serious consideration. As for the actual moral inconsistency, I agree with you.

Even if I would agree with you on the necessity to keep the base, I think neither Cerberus neither the Alliance are enough trustworthy to give them the base.

If my decision were free, I'd let Shepard create his own research unit. After all, both Mordin and Miranda have a very good scientific background and first-hand experience with Reaper technology. I'm sure they could find more independent experts. The other alternative is to give *everyone* access to the base.

[Caihn]

I think they have more important things to do, but it's your point of view.

[jtav]

Such as? Mordin is potentially working on a genophage cure, but unless Miranda does end up leadin Cerberus, I'd argue that reverse engineering Reaper tech to beat them is the best possible use of her time. She's one of the few people we've met who is both intelligent and ethical enough to pull it off.

[Caihn]

jtav wrote...

Such as? Mordin is potentially working on a genophage cure, but unless Miranda does end up leadin Cerberus, I'd argue that reverse engineering Reaper tech to beat them is the best possible use of her time. She's one of the few people we've met who is both intelligent and ethical enough to pull it off.

Find a safer place for her sister, for example. Or try to take control of Cerberus ressources that could be useful.

To me there is no proof that the base will be useful against the reapers, so it's a waste of time.

[Mondo47]

Greetings Miri-fans. I've hammered together a poll to try and chart the popularity of the game's love interests based on age and gender of gamers and I'd appreciate your input. You can find the poll here. Thanks, and have a good day y'all

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

jtav wrote...

Such as? Mordin is potentially working on a genophage cure, but unless Miranda does end up leadin Cerberus, I'd argue that reverse engineering Reaper tech to beat them is the best possible use of her time. She's one of the few people we've met who is both intelligent and ethical enough to pull it off.

Find a safer place for her sister, for example. Or try to take control of Cerberus ressources that could be useful.

To me there is no proof that the base will be useful against the reapers, so it's a waste of time.

You might disagree with giving the base to TIM, and I understand that, but - sorry - that kind of thinking is complete bullsh*t. You know, that's the problem with all research - there's never a guarantee of success. You are basically saying that all research is a waste of time because you don't know in advance you'll get useful results. Sorry, but that is insane! With that kind of attitude we'd still sit on trees....

Apart from that, if you take the situation seriously, it's a sure bet there won't be a victory against the Reaper without a technology upgrade.

[Jebel Krong]

the end-game choice was railroaded into becoming a morality decision, rather than a story-led one, sadly.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 juillet 2010 - 08:46 .

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

jtav wrote...

Such as? Mordin is potentially working on a genophage cure, but unless Miranda does end up leadin Cerberus, I'd argue that reverse engineering Reaper tech to beat them is the best possible use of her time. She's one of the few people we've met who is both intelligent and ethical enough to pull it off.

Find a safer place for her sister, for example. Or try to take control of Cerberus ressources that could be useful.

To me there is no proof that the base will be useful against the reapers, so it's a waste of time.

You might disagree with giving the base to TIM, and I understand that, but - sorry - that kind of thinking is complete bullsh*t. You know, that's the problem with all research - there's never a guarantee of success. You are basically saying that all research is a waste of time because you don't know in advance you'll get useful results. Sorry, but that is insane! With that kind of attitude we'd still sit on trees....

Apart from that, if you take the situation seriously, it's a sure bet there won't be a victory against the Reaper without a technology upgrade.

I respect your point of view, I would like you respect mine.

I think the research is worth it if you have time. In this situation I think there is no time to perform a research if we are not sure there will be results.

[Jebel Krong]

some more screenies:

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 juillet 2010 - 08:44 .

[Jebel Krong]

last couple for a while:

[Caihn]

I made my decision, I'm leaving the english forums for a while. As a Miranda fan, I'm fed up to read so much negative things on her. The regular bashing of the character ****** me off.
I also have too many divergences of opinion with the regular posters here.

I will continue to post my wallpapers, gifs and videos (if I make new ones) in the group discussions. 

bye
 

[kraidy1117]

Yannkee wrote...

I made my decision, I'm leaving the english forums for a while. As a Miranda fan, I'm fed up to read so much negative things on her. The regular bashing of the character ****** me off.
I also have too many divergences of opinion with the regular posters here.

I will continue to post my wallpapers, gifs and videos (if I make new ones) in the group discussions. 

bye
 

who cares what some fans think? We know Miri is fantastic

[Ieldra]

@Jebel Krong:

I like your screenshots, but in this case there's a bit too much of a good thing. Smaller sets would make me appreciate every single one more.



@Yannkee:

Too bad you're leaving. And no matter how much we disagree on one (!!!) point about Miranda - which isn't that much, isn't it - everyone here likes your screenshots and videos, so please continue to post anything featuring Miranda here. As for the character bashing, I'm getting fed up with it, too - so much so that I was tempted to start a Garrus-bashing thread myself. For about three seconds. Fortunately we don't see it in this thread.

[jtav]

Yeah, we all like Miranda. I certainly appreciate your vids and screenshots. I've managed to completely avoid the bashing apart from one incident.



What's the best way to link to a DeviantArt piece? I found a very nice Miranda and Liara artwork.



Chapter one of my own work is almost done. I just need to find someone brave enough, er, willing to look it over.

[syllogi]

jtav wrote...

What's the best way to link to a DeviantArt piece? I found a very nice Miranda and Liara artwork.

Here you go, I've been meaning to link this here today:



I  Miranda more than anybody in ME2, so this was really fun to draw.

[jtav]

Thanks for saving me the trouble. Gorgeous use of color. And, er, I ship these two like crazy. Much to the embarrassment of the rest of the thread.