15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Caihn]

Good luck. If you start defending Miranda against bashers, you gonna need it.

That's why I spend less time here, I'm tired to read stupid things on her.

[kraidy1117]

Nice avie Yan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pwnisher]

I wonder since they are releasing Liara DLC if they are going to "take care of" Miranda's father in a DLC pack?

[kraidy1117]

Pwnisher wrote...

I wonder since they are releasing Liara DLC if they are going to "take care of" Miranda's father in a DLC pack?

If Bioware is not going to make her a squadmate in ME3, then I demand DLC that gives her closure.

[nitefyre410]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

Just in case it hasn't already been posted.

  

So this picture has inspired a  Shephard/Miranda story not a romance more of a friendship/bond piece.  Unknown  terrorist organization(NOT Cerberus) is able to get abduct  Oriana and  Male Shep  Love  Interest other than Miranda(Ashley, Liara, Tali take your pick )  Now  they both have to with the help of Thane and Garrus have to dive into the underworld of the Galaxy to find these people.  During the search they end digging up dark parts of  each others past, helping each confronts those demons. 

[tommyt_1994]

nitefyre410 wrote...

IndigoWolfe wrote...

Just in case it hasn't already been posted.

  

So this picture has inspired a  Shephard/Miranda story not a romance more of a friendship/bond piece.  Unknown  terrorist organization(NOT Cerberus) is able to get abduct  Oriana and  Male Shep  Love  Interest other than Miranda(Ashley, Liara, Tali take your pick )  Now  they both have to with the help of Thane and Garrus have to dive into the underworld of the Galaxy to find these people.  During the search they end digging up dark parts of  each others past, helping each confronts those demons. 

I love the artwork. Whoever's responsible should pat themself on the back. That's one of the best Miranda fan arts I've ever seen. Great work

[Jebel Krong]

 came in to post that very same deviantart ^, no need to... 

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
From the various reactions we get, I have the feeling that even if such a thing is possible, it remains a feat that elicits incredulity and amazement. This is qualified further by Jacob mentioning how Shepard was basically meat and tubes to start with. I would also like to think that Miranda was more than just a project manager. The part where she chides Wilson for his wrong estimate suggests that not only does she possess the authority but she also has the knowledge and expertise to say so.

I've always assumed that she is also a scientist. Perhaps not with as much detailed expertise as Wilson had, but competent enough to take responsibility in situations like this. Also, she always strikes me as curious, which is why her reaction at the Collector base is particularly galling.
As for how much of a technological miracle this is, it goes as with every technological achievement: once it's done once, it ceases to be miraculous. But in Shepard's case there remains the question: how much of the earlier Shepard is (s)he, given that our sense of continuous identity is mostly an illusion anyway, if you believe the neurologists.

And it saddens me that the work she should rightfully be proud of will probably be buried in classified files and never publicly acknowledged. It’s always been very important for me that of all the LIs (male and female) in both games, she alone has that bigger than life personality, that genius acumen and presence to stand beside Shepard. My biggest consternation is that when the reaper threat is resolved, the universe will mostly acknowledge Shepard’s accomplishments and Miranda will simply become “the woman behind the man”.

Possibly, we'll be able to select our own epilogue again, and one can hope there will be one that gives Miranda her due.  For the rest, I am glad that what happens after ME3 will exist mostly in my imagination, for as you said, the story is set up in a way the LIs have to take second place after Shepard. Miranda deserves her own story. Perhaps someone will tell it.

I have very little hope that it doesn’t go that way, because the hero of the game is Shepard after all. Nonetheless, I can’t help indulging in wishful thinking – perhaps Miranda could pick up the reins of running Cerberus, restructuring the organization as a legitimate force for humanity without shadings of specism and an intelligence gathering and reinforcement agency for Shepard’s future work. She’d still be the woman behind the man but at least she’ll be a power to be reckoned with even in the background.

Shepard would be very bad as any kind of operative or spy. In that role she'd not be the woman behind the man, but a force in her own right, less recognized maybe, but that's OK with me.   

miranda's definitely a scientist - that's more than apparent from the "i still envy the time mordin spent with STG" conversation. her talents also include leadership, at least to a degree, hence project lead for lazarus.

as for shepard's 'resurrection' - i don't think it's too far off what may be possible in the future - there have already been confirmed cases of people being brought back from the dead far longer than the, now standard, 6 minutes + and you're brain-damaged, especially when cryogenic freezing is involved (and it may have been - if shepard's suit functioned that way when it sensed the leaks). in fact i was reading something about a certain gas being conducive to that very thing - without causing cellular damage - the other week (though i can't find the article now, or remember where i saw it) - i do remember that several people had been "thawed" after many hours of being clinically dead/frozen (18h+ in at least one case).

the problem with "someone else telling the story" is that it most likely won't be to anyone's liking, of course: much like reading drew's mass effect books is like reading a bastardisation of the  mass effect universe...

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 09 août 2010 - 08:59 .

[Caihn]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

So this picture has inspired a  Shephard/Miranda story not a romance more of a friendship/bond piece.  Unknown  terrorist organization(NOT Cerberus) is able to get abduct  Oriana and  Male Shep  Love  Interest other than Miranda(Ashley, Liara, Tali take your pick )  Now  they both have to with the help of Thane and Garrus have to dive into the underworld of the Galaxy to find these people.  During the search they end digging up dark parts of  each others past, helping each confronts those demons. 

I love the artwork. Whoever's responsible should pat themself on the back. That's one of the best Miranda fan arts I've ever seen. Great work

The author : patryk-garrett.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Effect-2-174252065 


To me it's more than friendship on the picture. I see two characters who love each other, thinking of the ultimate sacrifice they will probably have to make.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
I don’t really buy that working for that organization alone most of her adult life would therefore indoctrinate her to blind loyalty. In ME Galaxy she plays the role of an information broker and informant for Jacob, and it was suggested that she travels a lot, and has a lot of contacts throughout the galaxy.  Professionally, she’s likely to have seen just about everything, both good and bad -- which makes it hard to think that she firmly believes the TIM’s way is the only way to go.

Her loyalty may not be blind, but she does believe in Cerberus' goals as given to her by TIM. That's very clear from the conversations. But what exactly TIM told her is another question - he's very good in compartmentalizing his organization. I think she resigns because she recognizes that those "rogue cells" are actually acting with TIMs tacit approval.

I can definitely buy that she lacks strong familial relationships, possibly even meaningful personal relationships. And while it’s easy to fall into the possibility that TIM may be a father figure for her, there is absolutely nothing in their interactions or the way they talk about each other to suggest that. She does have a father complex, but in this case, it doesn’t necessary mean TIM is part of it.

Why must people try to understand every relationship in terms of family? I'm thoroughly sick of that. TIM is Miranda's employer, leading an organization whose goals she believes in. That's it.

[...]It’s also obvious that she enjoys her work in Cerberus with the unlimited resources and broad leeway she gets. She probably cuts her teeth on the most demanding tasks as a way to maintain self worth. Given all this, it would be easy to reconcile with what Cerberus does because she has a pretty flexible moral compass, and when something threatens to exceed her moral capacity, she ignores it, or rationalises it as someone else’s mistake or the work of rogue agents.

QFT.

I agree that somewhere along the line, things started changing for her. The frustrating thing is we have no hint at all what her reasons may be. All we have is the betrayal line she says in the collector’s base which is downright asinine. She chooses to respond emotionally when she has been mostly cool and professional, effectively picking a course of action that destroys her career and all the work she's done, endanger her sister’s life and possibly doom humanity and the rest of the galaxy to the reapers. Not saying if I agree or disagree, but you could really argue that this is the biggest decision of her life.

Indeed. And that she'd make this decision an emotional one is something I can't believe. I'm very glad you can avoid the "betrayal" line. I agree with what you said above, that she's had doubts about Cerberus for some time. The problem is that we're shoehorned into two alternatives that aren't, shouldn't be, the only ones. I can understand how Miranda would not want to give the base to TIM, that's completely within her character development. But she also wouldn't destroy it, but look for another alternative. For instance, TIM doesn't have the Reaper IFF, so how does he get his ships to the base? With Shepard's and Miranda's help, of course. They could simply refuse to give anything to him, but decipher the base's secrets on their own, perhaps with the help of some people Miranda trusts.

One explanation I can think of is no matter how you choose to regard Shepard’s role in her change of loyalty, if you’re not in a romance with her, she will salute you the one and only time before the suicide mission and says it has been an honour serving under you. You don’t get this scene if you’re in a romance with her (which is another issue all together). I cringe to think that Miranda has succumbed Shepard’s heroic aura and will now follow him/her to hell, even though she basically foreshadows it in an earlier conversation. What a cop-out! And no, the Power of Love crap doesn’t cut it for me either. Unfortunately, both explanations, together with a character conflict as you expose more and more of Cerberus’s atrocities through the side quests are probably the best you can hope for.

Unfortunately, while the ME plot is interesting enough, character-wise it is all very conventional. I very much dislike both "solution" you've mentioned and wouldn't like to see them true, but I fear the worst. IMO, the best we can hope for is something that leaves some leeway for interpretation. Currently, we have that, else there wouldn't be debate about Miranda's motivations. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 août 2010 - 10:11 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Those of you who play FemSheps, what is your relationship with Miranda generally like?

My "main" femShep is initially distrustful of her, having seen what Cerberus did in ME1, but really, they're two of a kind and they become great friends in time. Rhea Shepard is a War Hero, but isn't comfortable with that status because she knows that people would think differently of her if they knew what exactly she had to do for her victory. She tries to act Paragon if the situation allows for it, but is no stranger to desperate necessity (in game she ends up about 95/70 P/R). And she's secretly contemptuous of a public that seems unable to accept that you can't make an omelett without breaking eggs, and of public media that gloss over the starker realities of war. Since she's an Infiltrator, her's and Miranda's professional skills overlap quite a bit, which makes things easier. As opposed to Miranda, Rhea Shepard has a more realistic picture of TIM and tries to remove the pink lens she accuses Miranda of having when it comes to him. Still, she disagrees with Miranda about the base (she didn't expect to) and is willing to accept the consequences of keeping it. Desperate necessity, as she'd say.
Personally, Rhea Shepard is cool and detached most of the time, but smiles more easily than Miranda. She's mostly at peace with herself, and tends not to care what the rest of the universe thinks. She does care what Miranda thinks, though. And what Legion and Mordin think.

As I'm writing this, I notice how great it would be to have an F/F romance with Miranda.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 août 2010 - 10:36 .

[Jebel Krong]

actually miranda's about-face on the collector station at the end isn't quite as shocking as you think if you also took her along on the collector-ship earlier - her remarks of surprise that TIM "set you up" are the beginnings of her opening her eyes a bit more...



a few walls:





(same one without logo):

[nitefyre410]

Yannkee wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

So this picture has inspired a  Shephard/Miranda story not a romance more of a friendship/bond piece.  Unknown  terrorist organization(NOT Cerberus) is able to get abduct  Oriana and  Male Shep  Love  Interest other than Miranda(Ashley, Liara, Tali take your pick )  Now  they both have to with the help of Thane and Garrus have to dive into the underworld of the Galaxy to find these people.  During the search they end digging up dark parts of  each others past, helping each confronts those demons. 

I love the artwork. Whoever's responsible should pat themself on the back. That's one of the best Miranda fan arts I've ever seen. Great work

The author : patryk-garrett.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Effect-2-174252065 


To me it's more than friendship on the picture. I see two characters who love each other, thinking of the ultimate sacrifice they will probably have to make.

  


You can look at it like that,  I guess  I don't want to go the romance route because to many people  focus so much on the romance(the fluffy) and not the bond( the relationship). Friendships especial for them in giving the situation (at least in the story) can be amazing close almost to the point where the line is blur.    Just base off of the looks on their face, he is looking rather result , while she is looking like she just had a breakdown or something unnerving happened. 

[Elyvern]

@Jebel & ShadowJ20,


Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing that Miranda shouldn’t disavow TIM, my issue is with her motivations, especially in relation to destroying the collector’s base. Playing as Shepard, destroying it makes me grit my teeth because if the game even breathes the possibility that I could keep it out of TIM’s greedy grasp, I may even think of saving it. Like Ieldra says, we’re being shoehorned by limited choices here. I for one, can believe that Miranda could swing either way and choose to destroy or save the base. But her explanation for destroying it is because it’s a betrayal. That’s an unlikely emotional decision coming from a woman as pragmatic as her. However, I can still buy the betrayal line if we were given more insights into her decision-making. Which we don’t get. Likewise, she could’ve chosen to save the base but still defy TIM via the scenario Ieldra sketched out earlier, which is basically she and Shepard control base access via the Reaper IFF. But instead the end game equates destroying base as the only way to sever ties with Cerberus.


@Jebel – I envy anyone who can play Renegade Shepard. I couldn’t bring myself to continue in my current playthrough after forcing the Batarian bartender in Afterlife to drink poison. Also, I’d probably be laughing my way through any romance scene with those glowing red eyes.

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 août 2010 - 12:32 .

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
actually miranda's about-face on the collector station at the end isn't quite as shocking as you think if you also took her along on the collector-ship earlier - her remarks of surprise that TIM "set you up" are the beginnings of her opening her eyes a bit more...

I realize that. That's why I said that if Miranda doesn't want TIM to have the base, that's completely within her character development. The problem is the "betrayal" line, and the fact that the only alternative we're given is to destroy the thing. I would have accepted any decision about what to do with the base as long as it didn't involve destroying it. Give it to any faction who you could trust to some degree, or take your own team to explore it (that's what I think would be most in-character for Miranda). Just not destroy it. That's a strategic mistake of the first order. I can stretch my suspension of disbelief so far as to accept she'd make that decision impulsively, but then she'd regret it later.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
@Jebel – I envy anyone who can play Renegade Shepard. I couldn’t bring myself to continue in my current playthrough after forcing the Batarian bartender in Afterlife to drink poison. Also, I’d probably be laughing my way through any romance scene with those glowing red eyes.

The first thing I did when I got Gibbed's Savegame Editor was to remove the "Renegade scarring" from all the games I started thereafter without having to pay for it. It's one of the most annoying features of the game. ME isn't Star Wars, damn it (did I mention I hate SW?). And that they actually make the in-game removal of this the most expensive research project of all is adding insult to injury. 

But a mostly Renegade Shepard is hard to play even without it. I really don't mind the poison scene, he's asking for it, but it's hard to get to 90%+ Renegade without being a jerk to someone I'd rather respect. I have one Renegade among my 6 Shepards, a femShep Adept who might as well take the role of "Cerberus cheerleader". I managed to not be a jerk to my crew and retain everyone's loyalty but Jack's, but some decisions weren't to my taste even so.

[Caihn]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

So this picture has inspired a  Shephard/Miranda story not a romance more of a friendship/bond piece.  Unknown  terrorist organization(NOT Cerberus) is able to get abduct  Oriana and  Male Shep  Love  Interest other than Miranda(Ashley, Liara, Tali take your pick )  Now  they both have to with the help of Thane and Garrus have to dive into the underworld of the Galaxy to find these people.  During the search they end digging up dark parts of  each others past, helping each confronts those demons. 

I love the artwork. Whoever's responsible should pat themself on the back. That's one of the best Miranda fan arts I've ever seen. Great work

The author : patryk-garrett.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Effect-2-174252065 


To me it's more than friendship on the picture. I see two characters who love each other, thinking of the ultimate sacrifice they will probably have to make.

  


You can look at it like that,  I guess  I don't want to go the romance route because to many people  focus so much on the romance(the fluffy) and not the bond( the relationship). Friendships especial for them in giving the situation (at least in the story) can be amazing close almost to the point where the line is blur.    Just base off of the looks on their face, he is looking rather result , while she is looking like she just had a breakdown or something unnerving happened. 

That's why I said more than friendship. It includes their relationship and the romance.
To me, they have just lost the whole team, and now they are the only survivors. Miranda cracks up, Shepard holding her in his arms. Miranda wonders if they will share the same fate that their mates, Shepard wonders if he will be able to keep his promise.

[jtav]

My big fear is that Miranda will turn into a thoroughly conventional Paragon. She has a softer side, as represented by her relationship with Oriana, but she also shoots Wilson in the throat and is the one who told you not to go after your crew if you weren't completely prepared. Don't forget the control chip. She isn't what I think of when I think of a good person. I wouldn't be opposed to something of a redemption for her, but it would require more time than Bioware would be willing to give her. They've shown on numerous occasions that they're willing to sacrifice characterization for the sake of cool. That's why I hedge when I'm asked about whether I want her back in ME3. I'm afraid I won't get back the character I like.

Modifié par jtav, 09 août 2010 - 01:15 .

[Jebel Krong]

Elyvern wrote...

@Jebel & ShadowJ20,


Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing that Miranda shouldn’t disavow TIM, my issue is with her motivations, especially in relation to destroying the collector’s base. Playing as Shepard, destroying it makes me grit my teeth because if the game even breathes the possibility that I could keep it out of TIM’s greedy grasp, I may even think of saving it. Like Ieldra says, we’re being shoehorned by limited choices here. I for one, can believe that Miranda could swing either way and choose to destroy or save the base. But her explanation for destroying it is because it’s a betrayal. That’s an unlikely emotional decision coming from a woman as pragmatic as her. However, I can still buy the betrayal line if we were given more insights into her decision-making. Which we don’t get. Likewise, she could’ve chosen to save the base but still defy TIM via the scenario Ieldra sketched out earlier, which is basically she and Shepard control base access via the Reaper IFF. But instead the end game equates destroying base as the only way to sever ties with Cerberus.


@Jebel – I envy anyone who can play Renegade Shepard. I couldn’t bring myself to continue in my current playthrough after forcing the Batarian bartender in Afterlife to drink poison. Also, I’d probably be laughing my way through any romance scene with those glowing red eyes.

don't like the choice, never have, either but it's one case where BW obviously just shoehorned themselves into a position they couldn't write themselves out of, sadly. it's completely illogical not to have the choice to give it to the alliance/council, imo.

i always play renegade shepards - being goody-goody just doesn't work for me. as for the eyes - love 'em (and they're very similar to TIMs without extra detailing btw)! BUT i never play "jerk/racist" shepard, i play a version of me that does what i think i would do, in a vic mackey-esque way.

Ieldra2 wrote...

The first thing I did when I got Gibbed's Savegame Editor was to remove the "Renegade scarring" from all the games I started thereafter without having to pay for it. It's one of the most annoying features of the game. ME isn't Star Wars, damn it (did I mention I hate SW?). And that they actually make the in-game removal of this the most expensive research project of all is adding insult to injury. 

But a mostly Renegade Shepard is hard to play even without it. I really don't mind the poison scene, he's asking for it, but it's hard to get to 90%+ Renegade without being a jerk to someone I'd rather respect. I have one Renegade among my 6 Shepards, a femShep Adept who might as well take the role of "Cerberus cheerleader". I managed to not be a jerk to my crew and retain everyone's loyalty but Jack's, but some decisions weren't to my taste even so.

i alternated between hating and loving the scars... tbh i'd like to keep the eyes and get rid of them, but you can't (without modding, i assume). the scars do give some character and interesting imagery in certain scenes/lighting though (see below). there's plenty enough opportunity to max out your bar without compromising your playthrough - i tend to shoot a lot of bad people, but i'm hardly ever an ass to my squad, and there are certain renegade lines i never take as a result. i think BW got better at not making people have to choose the "extreme" lines (one or another) just to fill up their bar, meaning you can play the game more your way without hobbling your choices later on.

  

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 09 août 2010 - 01:58 .

[nitefyre410]

Yannkee wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

So this picture has inspired a  Shephard/Miranda story not a romance more of a friendship/bond piece.  Unknown  terrorist organization(NOT Cerberus) is able to get abduct  Oriana and  Male Shep  Love  Interest other than Miranda(Ashley, Liara, Tali take your pick )  Now  they both have to with the help of Thane and Garrus have to dive into the underworld of the Galaxy to find these people.  During the search they end digging up dark parts of  each others past, helping each confronts those demons. 

I love the artwork. Whoever's responsible should pat themself on the back. That's one of the best Miranda fan arts I've ever seen. Great work

The author : patryk-garrett.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Effect-2-174252065 


To me it's more than friendship on the picture. I see two characters who love each other, thinking of the ultimate sacrifice they will probably have to make.

  


You can look at it like that,  I guess  I don't want to go the romance route because to many people  focus so much on the romance(the fluffy) and not the bond( the relationship). Friendships especial for them in giving the situation (at least in the story) can be amazing close almost to the point where the line is blur.    Just base off of the looks on their face, he is looking rather result , while she is looking like she just had a breakdown or something unnerving happened. 

That's why I said more than friendship. It includes their relationship and the romance.
To me, they have just lost the whole team, and now they are the only survivors. Miranda cracks up, Shepard holding her in his arms. Miranda wonders if they will share the same fate that their mates, Shepard wonders if he will be able to keep his promise.

 

ah so we are in agreement then 

[nitefyre410]

jtav wrote...

My big fear is that Miranda will turn into a thoroughly conventional Paragon. She has a softer side, as represented by her relationship with Oriana, but she also shoots Wilson in the throat and is the one who told you not to go after your crew if you weren't completely prepared. Don't forget the control chip. She isn't what I think of when I think of a good person. I wouldn't be opposed to something of a redemption for her, but it would require more time than Bioware would be willing to give her. They've shown on numerous occasions that they're willing to sacrifice characterization for the sake of cool. That's why I hedge when I'm asked about whether I want her back in ME3. I'm afraid I won't get back the character I like.

 

Hey I am Paragon and I was planning on putting one in Wilson too.. she just beat me to the punch.     Her  statement about  not going after crew was prudent, don't rush off and  get your self  in over your head. Then you and your crew are dead.  Now the Control I can see the logic but it just does not sit  all tell well with me.  Still thats my greatest fear with ME 3,  bioware  going of the mass appeal instead of  telling the story that needs to be told.   

[jtav]

And a f/f romance with Miranda would have been lovely, provided Hale's delivery wasn't anything like what we got with Jacob. My FemSheps are more real to me and probably better matches for Miranda. Bioware would never have done it and I'd have a hard time accepting a retcon in ME3. Not of Miranda's sexuality--an ambiguous relationship with Jacob and a possible one with Shepard doesn't preclude female lovers--but of why she didn't express interest.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

And a f/f romance with Miranda would have been lovely, provided Hale's delivery wasn't anything like what we got with Jacob. My FemSheps are more real to me and probably better matches for Miranda. Bioware would never have done it and I'd have a hard time accepting a retcon in ME3. Not of Miranda's sexuality--an ambiguous relationship with Jacob and a possible one with Shepard doesn't preclude female lovers--but of why she didn't express interest.

i'm sorry but hale is the single reason i didn't carry my me1 femshep through to me2, and she was a really hot paragon adept.... 

last pic/wall for today:

[kraidy1117]

If Miri is a goody toeshoe I will rage.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

And a f/f romance with Miranda would have been lovely, provided Hale's delivery wasn't anything like what we got with Jacob. My FemSheps are more real to me and probably better matches for Miranda. Bioware would never have done it and I'd have a hard time accepting a retcon in ME3. Not of Miranda's sexuality--an ambiguous relationship with Jacob and a possible one with Shepard doesn't preclude female lovers--but of why she didn't express interest.

Unfortunately, the lack of homosexual relationships is wholly a case of BW trying to avoid the bad press of the first game. In a universe that can concieve of an entire race like the Asari who don't give a damn about their partner's gender, dictating that heterosexuality is a norm is plain unbelievable.
 
ME1 created a stir here when it was released. It was even banned. But fast forward 2 years and Dragon Age's homosexual relationships don't even warrant a peep now. Hopefully, BW takes that as a sign to ease up on the self censorship in ME3. But I agree it would be awful if they retcon any of the existing LI's sexual preferences because of it.

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 août 2010 - 04:12 .