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Miranda Lawson - our favorite woman in the galaxy (III)


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#3851
Ieldra

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fongiel24 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Biotics and genetics:
Biotics aren't genetic in humans. Humans don't naturally build eezo nodules, so there can't be any genes specific to biotic ability. There may be genetic factors connected to other traits that influence how strong a biotic someone can become, but you can't make a biotic through genetic modification.

Oriana as a biotic:
I consider it unlikely. If Miranda's father has found a method of making biotics reliably through implantation of eezo nodules, as Miranda's example indicates, it's doubtful he would leave things to chance with Oriana - the eezo exposure in the womb comes with a high risk of death. The important aspect is the eezo nodules must be present before onset of puberty, so it's also unlikely Oriana would have undergone the procedure as a small child. After that, there was no more opportunity since her father lost access to her. Oriana is most likely not a biotic.


Genetics can't make a human biotic but  I think a certain combination of genes would be needed for a fetus to become a biotic. The same eezo exposure that turns some people into biotics is capable of causing cancer of death in others and I doubt this is completely random.

Read the bolded text above again, and see that I said something similar. But whichever genes influence biotic ability, the connection is, at this point, a completely random effect because humanity didn't develop natural biotics. There can't have been any evolution of those genes unless they're tied to some other trait....

What I want to know is whether humanity has discovered precisely what genes determine biotic potential or whether the Alliance and organizations like Cerberus are still dependent on finding biotic individuals by chance or hit-and-miss experimentation.

...so if you change them, you'll probably change those other traits as well. To modify biotic ability as a separate trait, you'd need to install coding for new traits into the human genome. This is (a) extremely difficult and (B) very illegal if the Codex is correct. Cerberus might have some insight into it, but I doubt the Alliance has.

The point about Oriana made me wonder about something. Why did Miranda's father feel it necessary to make Miranda a biotic but not Oriana?

Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant: I think Miranda's father wanted to make Oriana a biotic using the same procedure he used with Miranda, but Oriana was taken away before he had the chance.

If his daughters are being created for the purpose of leading an empire, why risk giving them biotics at all? The process of eezo exposure, biotic amps, and training are all obviously dangerous. What benefits would biotic ability have for the head of a corporate empire? If the purpose of creating Miranda and her sisters was to forge supersoldiers or superagents I could understand it, but this is clearly not the case. Miranda seems tailormade for military/paramilitary organizations like Cerberus or the Alliance, not Miranda's father.

Well, Miranda didn't get her biotics through random exposure, and she didn't go to the usual training camps. She's still a very strong biotic for a human. So it seems the "standard" ways aren't the only ones, or even the best. Maybe the risk is played up by the powers that be. As for what benefit biotics could give: we don't know the kind of business Miranda's father runs. Also, it seems he wanted the very best in abilities a human could be genetically and technically come with - which does, of course, include biotics as a newly-human ability. A matter of vanity.

#3852
jtav

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Quick question: you don't get Miranda's "it's been an honor" speech if you're faithful to your ME LI, correct? Staring at the picture is the only scene you get? Virmire is upon me, and I really want to get Miranda's scene.

#3853
Ieldra

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jtav wrote...
Quick question: you don't get Miranda's "it's been an honor" speech if you're faithful to your ME LI, correct? Staring at the picture is the only scene you get? Virmire is upon me, and I really want to get Miranda's scene.

Er....I'm unware of any such speech in the Omega-4-Relay sequence, i.e. between entering the relay and landing on the base. I've just replayed it to be sure. Which speech is that you're asking about? I vaguely recall she says something like that at some time, but it wasn't in this sequence.

#3854
snfonseka

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Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Quick question: you don't get Miranda's "it's been an honor" speech if you're faithful to your ME LI, correct? Staring at the picture is the only scene you get? Virmire is upon me, and I really want to get Miranda's scene.

Er....I'm unware of any such speech in the Omega-4-Relay sequence, i.e. between entering the relay and landing on the base. I've just replayed it to be sure. Which speech is that you're asking about? I vaguely recall she says something like that at some time, but it wasn't in this sequence.


I think this "honour speech" happens before going through the Omega relay and I think you have to have a ME2 LI (other than Miri) to have this one.

#3855
jtav

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At the point where you normally got a romance scene, I once got a scene of Miranda approaching me at the CIC and telling me what an honor it had been to serve, etc. I was curious if I needed to have no romance in either game or if being faithful would suffice. It seems Kaidan's toast.

#3856
Ieldra

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jtav wrote...
At the point where you normally got a romance scene, I once got a scene of Miranda approaching me at the CIC and telling me what an honor it had been to serve, etc. I was curious if I needed to have no romance in either game or if being faithful would suffice. It seems Kaidan's toast.

I can get no scene containing these words when entering the relay with my femShep who was with none but Kaidan. Miranda does say she's impressed and she does the salute, but not "it's been an honor". Can't test with a no-romance-at-all-Shepard since I overwrote her to try Thane's romance. Also can't test with a maleShep since I was unable to motivate myself to continue that game (without romancing Miranda)...

For the scene I got, it's a necessary precondition that you don't have any ME2 romance at all.

(And didn't I make the mistake of writing "ME3 romance" at first in the sentence above.....)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 août 2010 - 02:27 .


#3857
Elyvern

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Ieldra2 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Biotics and genetics:
Biotics aren't genetic in humans. Humans don't naturally build eezo nodules, so there can't be any genes specific to biotic ability. There may be genetic factors connected to other traits that influence how strong a biotic someone can become, but you can't make a biotic through genetic modification.

Oriana as a biotic:
I consider it unlikely. If Miranda's father has found a method of making biotics reliably through implantation of eezo nodules, as Miranda's example indicates, it's doubtful he would leave things to chance with Oriana - the eezo exposure in the womb comes with a high risk of death. The important aspect is the eezo nodules must be present before onset of puberty, so it's also unlikely Oriana would have undergone the procedure as a small child. After that, there was no more opportunity since her father lost access to her. Oriana is most likely not a biotic.


Genetics can't make a human biotic but  I think a certain combination of genes would be needed for a fetus to become a biotic. The same eezo exposure that turns some people into biotics is capable of causing cancer of death in others and I doubt this is completely random.

Read the bolded text above again, and see that I said something similar. But whichever genes influence biotic ability, the connection is, at this point, a completely random effect because humanity didn't develop natural biotics. There can't have been any evolution of those genes unless they're tied to some other trait....


What I want to know is whether humanity has discovered precisely what genes determine biotic potential or whether the Alliance and organizations like Cerberus are still dependent on finding biotic individuals by chance or hit-and-miss experimentation.

...so if you change them, you'll probably change those other traits as well. To modify biotic ability as a separate trait, you'd need to install coding for new traits into the human genome. This is (a) extremely difficult and (B) very illegal if the Codex is correct. Cerberus might have some insight into it, but I doubt the Alliance has.


The point about Oriana made me wonder about something. Why did Miranda's father feel it necessary to make Miranda a biotic but not Oriana?

Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant: I think Miranda's father wanted to make Oriana a biotic using the same procedure he used with Miranda, but Oriana was taken away before he had the chance.


If his daughters are being created for the purpose of leading an empire, why risk giving them biotics at all? The process of eezo exposure, biotic amps, and training are all obviously dangerous. What benefits would biotic ability have for the head of a corporate empire? If the purpose of creating Miranda and her sisters was to forge supersoldiers or superagents I could understand it, but this is clearly not the case. Miranda seems tailormade for military/paramilitary organizations like Cerberus or the Alliance, not Miranda's father.

Well, Miranda didn't get her biotics through random exposure, and she didn't go to the usual training camps. She's still a very strong biotic for a human. So it seems the "standard" ways aren't the only ones, or even the best. Maybe the risk is played up by the powers that be. As for what benefit biotics could give: we don't know the kind of business Miranda's father runs. Also, it seems he wanted the very best in abilities a human could be genetically and technically come with - which does, of course, include biotics as a newly-human ability. A matter of vanity.


I know this totally is going into the realm of speculation, but I can't help but think it's entirely possible Miranda's father could be attempting to breed genetic biotics.

What if particular asari genes or certain amino acid combinations could be included into human DNA sequences? Genetic engineering like that would be highly unethical, not to mention illegal and I definitely cannot imagine the Alliance conducting experiments like that. But Cerberus and pro-Cerberus advocates would certainly fit the bill. With the use of retro-viruses and and mutagenic material, it could be done on a child any age.

And while an approach like this may not immediately produce genetical biotics, with selective breeding over a few generations, it may be possible to strengthen certain traits to the brink of breakthrough. Generations here could just mean creating fetuses and then harvesting cells to continuously refine the process. I'd imagine the earliest subjects would probably require surgery to implant the eezo nodes, but if eezo contamination could cross the placental barrier, eventually it would be possible to breed natural biotics via female subjects.

Call me sick, but I just cannot shake off the question of why Miranda and all her sisters are created female when it would be so much easier to create male subjects in the first place.

#3858
jtav

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I think I must have been misremembering her line then. Apparently faithful is sufficient to get the salute scene, according to two different Liara fans. So Kaidan doesn't have to be space dust.

#3859
Arhka

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Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Biotics and genetics:
Biotics aren't genetic in humans. Humans don't naturally build eezo nodules, so there can't be any genes specific to biotic ability. There may be genetic factors connected to other traits that influence how strong a biotic someone can become, but you can't make a biotic through genetic modification.

Oriana as a biotic:
I consider it unlikely. If Miranda's father has found a method of making biotics reliably through implantation of eezo nodules, as Miranda's example indicates, it's doubtful he would leave things to chance with Oriana - the eezo exposure in the womb comes with a high risk of death. The important aspect is the eezo nodules must be present before onset of puberty, so it's also unlikely Oriana would have undergone the procedure as a small child. After that, there was no more opportunity since her father lost access to her. Oriana is most likely not a biotic.


Genetics can't make a human biotic but  I think a certain combination of genes would be needed for a fetus to become a biotic. The same eezo exposure that turns some people into biotics is capable of causing cancer of death in others and I doubt this is completely random.

Read the bolded text above again, and see that I said something similar. But whichever genes influence biotic ability, the connection is, at this point, a completely random effect because humanity didn't develop natural biotics. There can't have been any evolution of those genes unless they're tied to some other trait....


What I want to know is whether humanity has discovered precisely what genes determine biotic potential or whether the Alliance and organizations like Cerberus are still dependent on finding biotic individuals by chance or hit-and-miss experimentation.

...so if you change them, you'll probably change those other traits as well. To modify biotic ability as a separate trait, you'd need to install coding for new traits into the human genome. This is (a) extremely difficult and (B) very illegal if the Codex is correct. Cerberus might have some insight into it, but I doubt the Alliance has.


The point about Oriana made me wonder about something. Why did Miranda's father feel it necessary to make Miranda a biotic but not Oriana?

Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant: I think Miranda's father wanted to make Oriana a biotic using the same procedure he used with Miranda, but Oriana was taken away before he had the chance.


If his daughters are being created for the purpose of leading an empire, why risk giving them biotics at all? The process of eezo exposure, biotic amps, and training are all obviously dangerous. What benefits would biotic ability have for the head of a corporate empire? If the purpose of creating Miranda and her sisters was to forge supersoldiers or superagents I could understand it, but this is clearly not the case. Miranda seems tailormade for military/paramilitary organizations like Cerberus or the Alliance, not Miranda's father.

Well, Miranda didn't get her biotics through random exposure, and she didn't go to the usual training camps. She's still a very strong biotic for a human. So it seems the "standard" ways aren't the only ones, or even the best. Maybe the risk is played up by the powers that be. As for what benefit biotics could give: we don't know the kind of business Miranda's father runs. Also, it seems he wanted the very best in abilities a human could be genetically and technically come with - which does, of course, include biotics as a newly-human ability. A matter of vanity.


I know this totally is going into the realm of speculation, but I can't help but think it's entirely possible Miranda's father could be attempting to breed genetic biotics.

What if particular asari genes or certain amino acid combinations could be included into human DNA sequences? Genetic engineering like that would be highly unethical, not to mention illegal and I definitely cannot imagine the Alliance conducting experiments like that. But Cerberus and pro-Cerberus advocates would certainly fit the bill. With the use of retro-viruses and and mutagenic material, it could be done on a child any age.

And while an approach like this may not immediately produce genetical biotics, with selective breeding over a few generations, it may be possible to strengthen certain traits to the brink of breakthrough. Generations here could just mean creating fetuses and then harvesting cells to continuously refine the process. I'd imagine the earliest subjects would probably require surgery to implant the eezo nodes, but if eezo contamination could cross the placental barrier, eventually it would be possible to breed natural biotics via female subjects.

Call me sick, but I just cannot shake off the question of why Miranda and all her sisters are created female when it would be so much easier to create male subjects in the first place.


I used to think Miranda was female solely for the fact to subtly manipulate the sons of other influential families and provide a foothold for the Lawsons to take over the spouse's influence and make a dynasty. You do bring up a valid point with possible Asari genetic incorporation. 

#3860
Elyvern

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Arhka wrote...

I used to think Miranda was female solely for the fact to subtly manipulate the sons of other influential families and provide a foothold for the Lawsons to take over the spouse's influence and make a dynasty. You do bring up a valid point with possible Asari genetic incorporation. 


You don't isolate children from their peers unless you want to create a deviant, a sociopath or psychopath, unable to fit seamlessly into society when they come of age. I agree that isolation would be a matter of control (making a subject more pliable) but it's also a matter of concealment from public eye. They can then be made to disappear without anyone wiser. All this, especially the disregard for Miranda's psychological well-being seems to point to the possiblity that her father wasn't interested in her potential and development as a social human being. Besides, with Oriana's conception, it's obvious that Miranda wasn't the end of the line. Probably, she was a failed experiment too and it's entirely likely that all these years, the experimental cycle has kept going on.

Modifié par Elyvern, 13 août 2010 - 03:31 .


#3861
Ieldra

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I'll remove the quote pyramid - see above for the rest of the debate:

Elyvern wrote...
I know this totally is going into the realm of speculation, but I can't help but think it's entirely possible Miranda's father could be attempting to breed genetic biotics.

What if particular asari genes or certain amino acid combinations could be included into human DNA sequences? Genetic engineering like that would be highly unethical, not to mention illegal and I definitely cannot imagine the Alliance conducting experiments like that. But Cerberus and pro-Cerberus advocates would certainly fit the bill. With the use of retro-viruses and and mutagenic material, it could be done on a child any age.

You're seriously considering genetic compatibility between different species? Just think about the probability of that. It's in the realm of fantasy as far as I'm concerned. Not that such things have stopped Bioware before, but it really doesn't deserve serious consideration without an explanation that would make the whole universe completely different. I don't want to repeat the countless words I have written about this, just believe me in this. Just one thing: remember that Earth's species are ALL genetically related, only that makes it possible to even think about transgenic organisms.

And while an approach like this may not immediately produce genetical biotics, with selective breeding over a few generations, it may be possible to strengthen certain traits to the brink of breakthrough. Generations here could just mean creating fetuses and then harvesting cells to continuously refine the process. I'd imagine the earliest subjects would probably require surgery to implant the eezo nodes, but if eezo contamination could cross the placental barrier, eventually it would be possible to breed natural biotics via female subjects.

As I said above, you'd have to construct the genes from scratch. You'd have to invent genes that make the body absorb and fix eezo in the first place, which is difficult enough. Asari don't have compatible genes, but eezo chemistry itself - assuming there is such a thing - should be universal, so you'd have a starting point from examining asari physiology. Then you'd have to change a human genome in order to use that chemistry within the human body. Since the genome is a whole with interdependent parts, simply adding stuff won't work. Once that's done, you'd have to program the production of the eezo nodules. I won't say it isn't possible, but it's a lengthy project. The complexity of such a project is outright insane.

Call me sick, but I just cannot shake off the question of why Miranda and all her sisters are created female when it would be so much easier to create male subjects in the first place.

Not sick - I think it's natural to think about this. But I don't think biotics were the main trait Miranda's father went for.

Arhka wrote...
You do bring up a valid point with possible Asari genetic incorporation.

That's not a valid point. See above.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 août 2010 - 04:47 .


#3862
Elyvern

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Ieldra2 wrote...

You're seriously considering genetic compatibility between different species? Just think about the probability of that. It's in the realm of fantasy as far as I'm concerned. Not that such things have stopped Bioware before, but it really doesn't deserve serious consideration without an explanation that would make the whole universe completely different. I don't want to repeat the countless words I have written about this, just believe me in this. Just one thing: remember that Earth's species are ALL genetically related, only that makes it possible to even think about transgenic organisms.


I probably didn't make myself clear enough. Perhaps genetic engineering has advanced to the point where they can make interspecies approximations, although I guess in this case, approximations wouldn't be enough. I always cringe at interspecies children in many typical sci-fi shows, but I honestly wouldn't put it beyond BW to declare this possible. I mean the Asari's "melding" reproduction is another cringe-worthy example if you are a stickler for stuff like that.

#3863
jtav

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I don't think we have to worry about interspecies children, but there is some indication that genetic engineering in ME can be used to add traits (like tails) that simply weren't there before. So, an approximate is possible.



I'm getting ready to star the game in which Miranda, and only Moranda will die. I'm RP-ing this Shepard as extremely anti-Cerberus and Renegade. She despises Miranda until her resignation. That shocks her. "But you're supposed to be a monster." She'll feel guilty over the death and I'll be using that to get her to reevaluate her priorities and have her be more Paragon in the sense of not being a jerk who shoots everything in ME3.

#3864
Arhka

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jtav wrote...

I don't think we have to worry about interspecies children, but there is some indication that genetic engineering in ME can be used to add traits (like tails) that simply weren't there before. So, an approximate is possible.

I'm getting ready to star the game in which Miranda, and only Moranda will die. I'm RP-ing this Shepard as extremely anti-Cerberus and Renegade. She despises Miranda until her resignation. That shocks her. "But you're supposed to be a monster." She'll feel guilty over the death and I'll be using that to get her to reevaluate her priorities and have her be more Paragon in the sense of not being a jerk who shoots everything in ME3.


Hmm, I get the feeling that ME3 might start with a report to the Council/Cerberus/Alliance on how your mission went and would allow to you to Paragon/Renegade your decisions and who you lost, much like the conversation on the Lazarus Escape Shuttle.

#3865
Ieldra

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Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You're seriously considering genetic compatibility between different species? Just think about the probability of that. It's in the realm of fantasy as far as I'm concerned. Not that such things have stopped Bioware before, but it really doesn't deserve serious consideration without an explanation that would make the whole universe completely different. I don't want to repeat the countless words I have written about this, just believe me in this. Just one thing: remember that Earth's species are ALL genetically related, only that makes it possible to even think about transgenic organisms.


I probably didn't make myself clear enough. Perhaps genetic engineering has advanced to the point where they can make interspecies approximations, although I guess in this case, approximations wouldn't be enough. I always cringe at interspecies children in many typical sci-fi shows, but I honestly wouldn't put it beyond BW to declare this possible. I mean the Asari's "melding" reproduction is another cringe-worthy example if you are a stickler for stuff like that.

I'm particular about biology, because we actually know quite a lot about it. You can extend stuff, put in all new kinds of life with exotic biochemistry, without going off into fantasy territory. You can assume the opposite, that life everywhere is based on carbon chemistry and amino acids. That's very plausible. To assume that everything has genes based on DNA is a stretch, but even that doesn't break the world. But there it stops. To say that this DNA codes for the same set of amino acids, and codes the same way as Earth-based life does, that is beyond all plausibility, and it only gets worse from there with all the hyper-complex interaction between different substances in every cell of our bodies. Every similarity beyond basic chemistry would need an extraordinary explanation, such as chemical evolution controlled by some precursor species, and they'd need to be omnipresent, because separated populations evolve away from each other quite fast.

So, yes, I'm a stickler for stuff like this. I think that science can be extended into the unknown with impunity - that's what SF is for, but outright contradictions need a plausible explanation, or they need to be necessary for the story to function. FTL travel belongs in the latter category even though it should have been explained better. Eezo is an extension into the unknown. Both are acceptable. Interspecies sex and everything that comes with it is neither - it's the victory of the Rule of Sexy over world consistency. I find that outright contemptible.

And now I've done my monthly rant about this and we can get back to more pleasant subjects.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 août 2010 - 06:40 .


#3866
Ieldra

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There needs to be a Miranda picture on this page:



Posted Image

#3867
Caihn

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A new screenshots album :

Samara recruitment mission 

My favorites :

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#3868
Prudii Aden

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On a slightly different tack - I've found the video source for the picture of Yvonne with a bokken.



#3869
jtav

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Ah, I like pictures. She is a stunningly beautiful woman. Also a complex character who is unabashedly capable. She just shot Wilson in my latest game. Yay for a woman who not only doesn't need rescuing, but can rescue you.

#3870
Caihn

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Sure she's very capable.

I don't see Shepard and Miranda as the hero and his mate, but as a hero couple (I don't like the word "hero" but I didn't find something else).

That's why I would be very disappointed to play Shepard, without Miranda at his side, in ME3.

#3871
jtav

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She is the MaleShep LI closest to being an equal, which is why she's the only one I've been able to romance when I play him. I want that equality, the sense that she could be a protagonist in her own right, to remain. I fluctuate on how much I want her on the ME3 team, but I want my morally ambiguous superspy back.

#3872
Caihn

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I can't imagine her elsewhere.

Maybe she can have some business to deal with, occasionally. But would she let Shepard face the reapers without her ? I don't think so.

#3873
jtav

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Depends. If her ME3 role boiled down to "While you were gone, I took over Cerberus. Apologies for not joining you, but I'm a bit pressed at the moment," I'd find it really hard to be angry. If it's just Horizon 2.0, I will be pissed.

#3874
Caihn

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Yes I would be angry because I want to see TIM's face when it will happen ! :devil: 

#3875
jtav

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Another, petty reason to love Miranda. She's very right about going to get Mordin first. I'd been planning to pick him up last simply to spite her, but I'd forgotten how slow the mineral scanner is before you update it. And considering that's her upgrade, I'm doubly inclined to like her.