15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Miranda is most certainly damaged. But she was damaged in such a way as to not let it affect her usefulness or functionality.



It is why, I suspect, she is so resentful or cold toward people who do let their damage affect their usefulness and functionality, their behavior and way of life - as if they are allowed to be hurt and show that they are hurt, but when she is hurt, she is still expected to perform.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
If someone is just copying a preexisting genetic configuration and not experimenting with new ones, there shouldn't be any problems though, provided of course that the template being copied didn't. For example, if Jack was used as a template, copying that part of her genetic code that determines biotic potential shouldn't result in developmental problems, as long as nothing else was altered.

Jack is a good example, actually - she'll have a much shorter life than the human average because of what she is. Or perhaps that wasn't because of genetic modification, but still...

All of this makes me wonder if other species are also engaging in genetic engineering to such a degree. The codex mentions biotics only being common amongst the asari due to their natural affinity, but if biotic ability provides such an advantage in military applications, it seems strange the turians or salarians wouldn't have attempted to "rig the deck" genetically.

Perhaps it isn't possible for them. Maybe humans are  - again - the lucky ones who have genetic code that can be co-opted for biotics in spite of the fact that eezo isn't found on Earth naturally - because only if you have eezo on your homeworld you have any chance of developing natural biotics and the genetic coding for any biotic-related traits. I don't doubt every species is working on the stuff, but it might be a lot more difficult for them. "Humans are special", yet again. I wish they wouldn't use that trope, but then, I guess we wouldn't have Miranda without it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 août 2010 - 08:04 .

[Ieldra]

Lots of very interesting ideas about the Miranda/Shepard relationship on the last few pages. I agree with most of it so I haven't much to add....

jtav wrote...
And I thought of another, tiny change to make to the romance. When Miranda asks you to promise not to die, give the option for Shepard to attempt to extract the same promise from her because he can no more bear the thought of losing her than she can him.

QFT.

fongiel24 wrote...
This reminded me of a beef I have with Shepard in general and his relationship with Miranda in particular. Miranda seems to be the only vulnerable one in the relationship. She's the one that has to open up
about her insecurities and address her fears. All Shepard seems to offer are platitudes, cheesy platitudes, and that overconfidence that I find so annoying. It would have been great to have Shepard admit to Miranda (or any of the other LIs) that the Reapers are scary, he's afraid of failure and dying sometimes, he's not bulletproof, and he needs the love and support of his LI just as much as they seem to need his.

This is what annoys about ME2's Shepard as well. Someone should tell Bioware that "larger than life" doesn't mean superhuman, especially not invulnerable, physically and emotionally. He comes across as almost inhuman at atimes. I like the way the plot has gone in ME2 for Shepard, with the Cerberus involvement and all, but in this aspect I liked the ME1 version better.

-----------------------------------------

Also @fongiel:
I agree with what you said about Miranda being "damaged". I would not use that term. She's influenced by her difficult childhood, of course, but that didn't keep her from living her life. I also don't see her detachment and coldness as unhealthy. People make to much of her "issues" and personality traits. Everyone has some problems, and MIranda's better at dealing with them than most. And she is who she is. We can try to figure out why she is that way, but this tendency of creating some psychological problem that needs addressing out of every personality trait that isn't completely mainstream starts to make me angry..... Some people are just different. Accept it.

Having said that, one attitude I prefer she changed in some way (note the phrasing) is "The only thing I can take credit for are my mistakes". Not because it's necessary, but because I'd prefer to see her happy in the end, and this is the only real obstacle.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 août 2010 - 07:24 .

[Andaius20]

hey folks, been a while, how's it going?

[fongiel24]

Hey Andaius, pretty quiet right now, but then it's past midnight on this side of the Atlantic.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Having said that, one attitude I prefer she changed in some way (note the phrasing) is "The only thing I can take credit for are my mistakes". Not because it's necessary, but because I'd prefer to see her happy in the end, and this is the only real obstacle.

We all have our hangups and underneath all that competency and perfectionism Miranda has some self-worth issues. That's why I mentioned it would probably take a long time for her to accept the idea that anyone could care about her for who she is, flaws and all.

[Ieldra]

Very quiet here....

[jtav]

I'm not going to be around much today (going to see Dreamgirls at the local PAC). I think Miranda's only canonical psychological problem is her tendency to equate her worth with her usefulness mixed with self-loathing, and the degree of that is open to interpretation. The two things that break my heart in every game are her conviction that she can only complicate Oriana's life and ""The only thing I can take credit for are my mistakes."

[GuitarShredUK]

jtav wrote...

I'm not going to be around much today (going to see Dreamgirls at the local PAC). I think Miranda's only canonical psychological problem is her tendency to equate her worth with her usefulness mixed with self-loathing, and the degree of that is open to interpretation. The two things that break my heart in every game are her conviction that she can only complicate Oriana's life and ""The only thing I can take credit for are my mistakes."

QFT jtav - I didn't actually mind Shepard's kind of inhuman approach to his relationship with Miranda, and because of that tried to support her and see herself for what she really is, to value herself (even though having a vicious and almost obsessive father probably puts paid to that).

That said, the one line in the entire game that I can't help but crack up at is Shepard's dismissal of Miranda's concern about an unnecessary relationship: "...Who said anything about love? I'm just trying to get you into bed!"  

[Caihn]

I hate this line. Even if it's a joke, it doesn't help to convince people that the romance is not a one night stand.

I prefer this : "It doesn't matter. What matters is how we feel."
 

[fongiel24]

Considering the speed at which the relationship develops, I can see why that line could be misinterpreted. It's unfortunate because I feel it works nicely to lighten the sombre mood.

[Dave of Canada]

fongiel24 wrote...

Considering the speed at which the relationship develops, I can see why that line could be misinterpreted. It's unfortunate because I feel it works nicely to lighten the sombre mood.

Well, the speed of the relationships in Mass Effect 2 is pretty fast regardless of who it is. You only get two "romance" dialogue options after the loyalty mission where you either go "Yeah. I love you." or "No. I don't love you." leading to a romance scene if you picked the yes option.

[Caihn]

fongiel24 wrote...

Considering the speed at which the relationship develops, I can see why that line could be misinterpreted. It's unfortunate because I feel it works nicely to lighten the sombre mood.

I like the mood, and I think this line spoils the whole scene. 

Modifié par Yannkee, 15 août 2010 - 07:44 .

[Raizo]

GuitarShredUK wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm not going to be around much today (going to see Dreamgirls at the local PAC). I think Miranda's only canonical psychological problem is her tendency to equate her worth with her usefulness mixed with self-loathing, and the degree of that is open to interpretation. The two things that break my heart in every game are her conviction that she can only complicate Oriana's life and ""The only thing I can take credit for are my mistakes."

QFT jtav - I didn't actually mind Shepard's kind of inhuman approach to his relationship with Miranda, and because of that tried to support her and see herself for what she really is, to value herself (even though having a vicious and almost obsessive father probably puts paid to that).

That said, the one line in the entire game that I can't help but crack up at is Shepard's dismissal of Miranda's concern about an unnecessary relationship: "...Who said anything about love? I'm just trying to get you into bed!"  

I laughed the first time I heard that line, of course that was back in the days before I knew how little romance dialogue was left in the game, now it just breaks my heart and and complety kills the mood every time I see or hear it.

I agree with the earlier point  that fongiel24 made that Miranda seems to be the only vulnerable one in her relationship with Shepard. Miranda does not strike me as the type of person who lets alot of people into her life and here she is stripping down her barriers and declareing her feelings for Shepard and how much it would hurt her to lose him and he replies with a smart ass coment about trying to get into Miranda's pants, and to think that this is supposed to be the paragon dialogue option as well.

Modifié par Raizo, 15 août 2010 - 07:42 .

[Ieldra]

GuitarShredUK wrote...
That said, the one line in the entire game that I can't help but crack up at is Shepard's dismissal of Miranda's concern about an unnecessary relationship: "...Who said anything about love? I'm just trying to get you into bed!" 

I prefer this line over the alternative, even though it can be misinterpreted. It's a joke to lighten the mood, and they both know it. The problem is the alternative "It doesn't matter. What matters is how we feel." sounds cheesy and devoid of content - something that goes without saying. I very much dislike empty and cheesy - there's already enough of that without this added. At least the alternative does mean something.

[Andaius20]

Shep has cheesey lines all over the place.....

[kraidy1117]

Andaius20 wrote...

Shep has cheesey lines all over the place.....

Shepard is cheese.

[fongiel24]

Shepard's lines in general aren't as well crafted as those of his companions, but then in an RPG that's to be expected, since these types of games generally don't rely on a well-defined main character to create immersion.



I think we wouldn't have as much of a problem with such a cardboard Shepard if Bioware had shaved down the number of origins and backgrounds. If Bioware had shaved it down to one origin and two backgrounds (one Renegade, one Paragon), then maybe they could have created some dialogue where Shepard can talk about his past a bit and how it affects him. Having three origins and three backgrounds requires them to account for too many permutations. It becomes easier for them to simply leave out any mention Shepard makes of his past, which is exactly what they did.

[jtav]

My favorite option in that scene is actually "Damn it-you're right" which breaks the romance, bit is actually romantic in its own right. They hold hands and decide maybe it's best to not act on their feelings right now. What if that was the way the romance played out, only the romance scene consisted of her telling you she's changed her mind. Cue the promise dialogue, followed by a love scene.



Oddly, several of Miranda's romance rejection dialogues boil down to "not rig not now" not "I'm not interested," Wonder why?

[Prudii Aden]

jtav wrote...
Oddly, several of Miranda's romance rejection dialogues boil down to "not rig not now" not "I'm not interested," Wonder why?

Interesting point jtav - it's certainly different from the one I know of for Tali which goes along the lines of "I don't want to risk you"...

[Caihn]

Drodjan wrote...

I have exactly this problem with romances in the game. Shepard might be a hero and doesn't ever show fear to his enemies, but he's still a human being. I wish I could get him to open up a little, especially to his LI. 

"I care about you Miranda, and I think you care about me"

"It doesn't matter. What matters is how we feel."

It's the best you can obtain from Shepard.
I wish he could talk a little bit more about his feelings for Miranda. <_< 
Maybe in ME3 ?

[GuitarShredUK]

Yannkee wrote...

Drodjan wrote...

I have exactly this problem with romances in the game. Shepard might be a hero and doesn't ever show fear to his enemies, but he's still a human being. I wish I could get him to open up a little, especially to his LI. 

"I care about you Miranda, and I think you care about me"

"It doesn't matter. What matters is how we feel."

It's the best you can obtain from Shepard.
I wish he could talk a little bit more about his feelings for Miranda. <_< 
Maybe in ME3 ?

Definitely, as they have both been through the supposed suicide mission together - so Miranda should now have all the "proof" that she needs that both Shepard and herself can lead the team through hell and back -  and, from my Shepard's perspective she (Miranda) is now free from her duties with Cerberus by coolly telling TIM to ****** off and letting Shepard plant the bomb in the collector base .

However, with all the talk of guys wanting the whole complete crew back together, to have the initial crew from ME1 join with the new from ME2 (myself included - although this in turn does have its own issues mainly Liara, Wrex governing on Tuchanka, and Ashley/Kaidan still with the Alliance). I feel that depending on who you were persuing as an LI in ME1 would or could lead to some very interesting confrontations for Miranda e.g. with Ashley or Liara... 

Modifié par GuitarShredUK, 15 août 2010 - 10:48 .

[Caihn]

GuitarShredUK wrote...


Definitely, as they have both been through the supposed suicide mission together - so Miranda should now have all the "proof" that she needs that both Shepard and herself can lead the team through hell and back -  and, from my Shepard's perspective she (Miranda) is now free from her duties with Cerberus by coolly telling TIM to ****** off and letting Shepard plant the bomb in the collector base .

From my Shepard's perspective too  
I love when she hang up on TIM.

However, with all the talk of guys wanting the whole complete crew back together, to have the initial crew from ME1 join with the new from ME2 (myself included - although this in turn does have its own issues mainly Liara, Wrex governing on Tuchanka, and Ashley/Kaidan still with the Alliance). I feel that depending on who you were persuing as an LI in ME1 would or could lead to some very interesting confrontations for Miranda e.g. with Ashley or Liara... 

Not a problem for me anymore. My "canon" Shepard has no romance in ME1 .

Modifié par Yannkee, 15 août 2010 - 10:56 .

[jtav]

I have one MaleShep who had no romance in ME and romanced Miranda. My Liara romancing Shepard went for Miranda after I discovered Tali and Jack's romances suit me less than hers. I hope I can arrange things so that both dump him. I'm also thinking about running a genuinely pro-Cerberus Shep who is a charming sociopath, really. He goes for Miranda soley because she is hot. No emotional investment at all.