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[jtav]

I suspect my personal biases are showing regarding Shepard. How I envision Miranda's future varies. I dreamed up epilogues where she's everything from an Alliance intelligence agent to a groundbreaking medical researcher who led the team that cured Kepral's (Atonement) to the Illusive Woman.

[Nightwriter]

Let's talk about what a shame it is that the game focuses so much on Miranda's body instead of her character.

[jtav]

It is a shame, and it's one of those things guaranteed to send me into a frothing rage every time. It demeans her and it makes me embarrassed to admit I like her.

[jtav]

And would this happen to be prompted by a certain thread in the storyline forum that made you say you might possibly like Liara/Miranda?

[ADLegend21]

Nightwriter wrote...

Let's talk about what a shame it is that the game focuses so much on Miranda's body instead of her character.

I'm sorry but I really don't feel that this is true. Sure she wears a body suit, but it's similar to what the asari commandos wear in me1 and to what the quarians wear, which functions as their casual wear and their armor. After the initial meeting the game does focus on Miranda as a person and shows that while she's headstrong and somewhat of a workaholic and perfectionist, hse's a person too with insecurities and even fears (or fears for her sister) now if everyone was doing what I see in ff's sometimes on the actual games (refering to Miranda as "******" and "boobs Mcgee") then maybe I'd say the game does focuz on her body more than her charater, but since it's not I don't think that it does that. that's how I see it.

[Spartas Husky]

fongiel24 wrote...


I think it'd be hard for any Shepard, no matter his alignment or background, to fully settle down. When you've spent your entire adult life on the move, I imagine you'd succumb to boredom very quickly if you attempt to live a quiet, sedentary lifestyle. I can see Shepard and Miranda thinking they want that, but quickly realizing they miss the action after a few months when the honeymoon period has ended.

you never trully, know. Is very unpredictible.

Some crave it more than anything, some never quite are happy with setleling down... some decide to keep moving.

It doesn't depend on anything, is just as random as the person.

[fongiel24]

Nightwriter wrote...

Let's talk about what a shame it is that the game focuses so much on Miranda's body instead of her character.

The focus on Miranda's body is a little excessive, but I didn't think it was particularly gratuitous compared to other movies and games out there. She's an attractive human female character in a big budget game so I think it was inevitable she'd end up dressed the way she is. I'm not entirely happy with it (although her outfit does show off her curves very nicely) but I'm just saying it could have been a lot worse. At least her personality doesn't seem to be overly sexualized.

[Elyvern]

I'm always a little conflicted over this. On one hand, we're justifiably irritated by the focus on Miranda's highly sexualised body, but she does get more exposure than other characters, and subsequently as her fans, we get more material because BW is obviously banking on her image to promote the game. Win some, lose some, I guess....

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Thanks fongiel. I admit I haven't the slightest idea how Lazarus works but I'm uncomfortable with reducing personality and memory to mere brain chemistry, so Miranda's knowledge is more intimate than it probably should be. I was most worried about recasting their relationship as mother-son since he's male and they're both straight in the story but there's still no romance. Some people are very attached to their preferred pairings.

Well, it *is* brain chemistry. Imprinted by genetics, education and experience, yes, and it may be an emergent property, but in the end nothing more if you don't want to introduce metaphysical elements. There are basically two different ways to implant a memory: by brainwashing or by chemistry. Brainwashing can be achieved by psychological means combined with psycho-active drugs, I guess, but the drawback is that this memory can never be an exact replica of the original. To implant a memory in a way that the result can be said to be identical to an original template, you'd first need to know every single sensory perception a memory was made up of, maybe even the emotion it triggered, and then need to know exactly how these perceptions and emotions transform into chemistry.
So, I'd say, if a brain scan of the earlier Shepard doesn't exist, and he lost some brain functions or memory when the SR1 went down, then I consider it impossible to recreate Shepard as identical to the first, because the knowledge of the original is irrecoverably lost. The new Shepard wouldn't be the old. Maybe he wouldn't know. But Miranda would.

Apart from that, I like your excerpt. It has some interesting elements that seem very much in-character. Making the relationship different doesn't bother me. I am attached to my OTP but why shouldn't I be able to value another's version on its own merits? As long as you don't propose your version as the baseline for ME3's character story....

[Nightwriter]

jtav wrote...

And would this happen to be prompted by a certain thread in the storyline forum that made you say you might possibly like Liara/Miranda?

Nope. Though it's funny you'd notice that post, lol.

Just logged onto the Tali website. They started a Miranda thread there.

Some of the things they said made me think of this.

[Nightwriter]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Let's talk about what a shame it is that the game focuses so much on Miranda's body instead of her character.

I'm sorry but I really don't feel that this is true. Sure she wears a body suit, but it's similar to what the asari commandos wear in me1 and to what the quarians wear, which functions as their casual wear and their armor. After the initial meeting the game does focus on Miranda as a person and shows that while she's headstrong and somewhat of a workaholic and perfectionist, hse's a person too with insecurities and even fears (or fears for her sister) now if everyone was doing what I see in ff's sometimes on the actual games (refering to Miranda as "******" and "boobs Mcgee") then maybe I'd say the game does focuz on her body more than her charater, but since it's not I don't think that it does that. that's how I see it.

But you're forgetting that the asari's asses in those suits are nowhere near as ridiculous as Miranda's, and that Miranda's sex scene and much of her romance is geared to focus on her body and sex.

Though I wish more people had perspectives like yours.

[Caihn]

To me the romance is focused both on strong feelings and physical attraction. Something I think we find in most of passionate relationships.

One thing I don't like is her default outfit, the guy who designed it should be ashamed. (next time I start a new game, I think I will find a mod which replace the default outfit by the loyalty one)

Modifié par Yannkee, 17 août 2010 - 10:32 .

[fongiel24]

Yannkee wrote...

To me the romance is focused both on strong feelings and physical attraction. Something I think we find in most of passionate relationships.

One thing I don't like is her default outfit, the guy who designed it should be ashamed. (next time I start a new game, I think I will find a mod which replace the default outfit by the loyalty one)

I prefer the loyalty outfit as well, but I'm just curious, what is it about the default outfit that you dislike so much?

[Nightwriter]

fongiel24 wrote...

The focus on Miranda's body is a little excessive, but I didn't think it was particularly gratuitous compared to other movies and games out there. She's an attractive human female character in a big budget game so I think it was inevitable she'd end up dressed the way she is. I'm not entirely happy with it (although her outfit does show off her curves very nicely) but I'm just saying it could have been a lot worse. At least her personality doesn't seem to be overly sexualized.

Well my statement is also addressing the focus on sex in regards to her romance.

All you get is coy winking and a bang in the engine room without dialogue. Not very meaningful.

Then there's the, "Who said anything about love? I just want to get you into bed" line, which is top-right (urgh). And I think that line should break the romance. Like she should just get up and tell you to leave.

Also the, "I wouldn't mind you admiring my body" line. Also top right.

[fongiel24]

The lines were a little cheesy. The "I'm admiring your body right now" line is "grab a bucket" bad. The "Who said anything about love?" line isn't great, but I didn't find it as bad since it can be taken as a joke to lighten the mood.



I liked the sex scene. It's... a sex scene, so the wink and the tryst in the engine room made sense to me. I agree that it was weird that there was no dialogue though.

[jtav]

fongiel, I'm not Yankee, but the white outfit draws attention to certain body parts in a way that many find tasteless. Including me. I agree that the romance is focused too much on the physical aspect and is designed in such a way that it can be played as a fling on Shepard's part. Not only that, but the "fling" options are in the Paragon spot. Did Bioware think players would only go for her body and therefore these responses are the honest ones?

[Nightwriter]

That's the impression I got. You have to actually make a serious effort not to make this romance meaningless and sexual, which is disturbing.

I have to disagree about the engine room, there's a difference between a romance scene and a sex scene imo. I wanted a romance scene. All the other LIs got romance scenes. What I got was a sex scene.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

fongiel, I'm not Yankee, but the white outfit draws attention to certain body parts in a way that many find tasteless.

What I don't get is that they're the same outfit, just with different textures. The white hexagon pattern does tend to accentuate curves more though I guess.

Nightwriter wrote...

I have to disagree about the engine room, there's a difference between a romance scene and a sex scene imo. I wanted a romance scene. All the other LIs got romance scenes. What I got was a sex scene.

I really need to play the other LIs. People keep talking about how much more gratuitous Miranda's was and I have no idea what they're talking about. The only other romance scene I've seen is Tali's, which would logically be more muted.

Modifié par fongiel24, 17 août 2010 - 11:59 .

[Prudii Aden]

jtav wrote...

fongiel, I'm not Yankee, but the white outfit draws attention to certain body parts in a way that many find tasteless. Including me. I agree that the romance is focused too much on the physical aspect and is designed in such a way that it can be played as a fling on Shepard's part. Not only that, but the "fling" options are in the Paragon spot. Did Bioware think players would only go for her body and therefore these responses are the honest ones?

Indeed. It is rather worrying, that. If all the paragon/'good' responses are the ones where could lead to the conclusion it's a meaningless fling on Shep's part...

I don't have a problem per se, with the "admiring body" line (Miranda's body is worthy of in depth admiration ) - it's the "I'm just trying to get you into bed" that I have a problem with. Even adding a touch of humour to it doesn't rescue either of them.

[jtav]

The problem with "Who said anything about love?" is that the dialogue option is marked as "Love?" Most people would take that as leading to some variation on "Wait a minute. Did you just say you're in love with me?" The fact that it doesn't leads me to believe the line wasn't entirely a joke.

[Prudii Aden]

I wouldn't call Miranda's scene gratuitous. Yes, she strips. Wow. Shocking, that. It's totally different to Jack's renegade scene, which is purely about sex. That also pans away just before anything really happens.

[Caihn]

The Shepard Paragon lines :

"The best thing he did was to put you on my squad."
"You always bring up your genetic tailoring. It really bothers you, doesn't it?"
"I can't admire your body or your mind? You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them."
"You wouldn't, huh?" (seduction game, initiate by Miranda.)
"It's only fair. You've had two years to look at me. And I was wearing less than you are." 
"Scared, Miss Lawson?"
...
"I care about you Miranda, and I think you care about me"
"Who said anything about love? I'm just trying to get you into bed." (a joke, already discussed before)
"I died once already. I don't plan to do it again."

Sorry I don't think these lines shows that Shepard is only interested in her body.
The fact is the physical attraction doesn't exist in other romances, so many people think it's all about sex, but it isn't.


About the default outfit, what Jtav said is what I think about it.

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...

jtav wrote...

And would this happen to be prompted by a certain thread in the storyline forum that made you say you might possibly like Liara/Miranda?

Nope. Though it's funny you'd notice that post, lol.

Just logged onto the Tali website. They started a Miranda thread there.

Some of the things they said made me think of this.

The Tali website? Where's that? I'd like to see what they have to say about Miranda....

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...

That's the impression I got. You have to actually make a serious effort not to make this romance meaningless and sexual, which is disturbing.

I disagree with you here. Perhaps it's a gender thing, but I found it very easy to play this romance and not find it meaningless. Having sex in it doesn't mean it's meaningless. And really, I like that there's sex in it. I recall that I said I find it dishonest to downplay the importance of the physical (see the Miranda Manifesto) against one's own better knowledge, and I stand by that.

And for everyone: I also think we shouldn't over-criticize things just for the sake of criticism. That's what much of this debate appears like to me at this point. There are things I'd have preferred otherwise in Miranda's romance, but as a whole I like it.

What I do *not* like is Miranda's default outfit for the reasons already mentioned. But that has nothing to do with the romance.

@Yannkee:
Hey, I actually agree with you here..... doesn't happen all that often lately.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 août 2010 - 12:50 .

[Caihn]

Prudii Aden wrote...

 it's the "I'm just trying to get you into bed" that I have a problem with. Even adding a touch of humour to it doesn't rescue either of them.

It should not be taken seriously.
If you like to "lighten" the mood, this line is great, but I don't.
(I also think the the voice acting of this line is not good).

Modifié par Yannkee, 17 août 2010 - 12:56 .