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[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

To give the man some credit, he's biased and he interprets Miranda in the worst possible way, but at least he's articulate enough to not qualify as a "stupid hater". I'd rather have a debate with him than that group of Talimancers who said those unspeakable things about her a while ago.

He's not a stupid hater, but I think I'd actually rather have to deal with a bunch of rabid Talimancers. At least in the case of the latter you know they're a lost cause. When you're debating with an articulate zealot, you're always holding out false hope that eventually you might be able to convince them of your side of the argument. Before you know it, it's 4am and you've just argued with the guy for ten pages.

Now that I think about it... I can probably count the number of times I ventured into any of the Tali fan threads on one hand.

[KainrycKarr]

Nightwriter wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I've never heard you say a word against anyone's LI. Yes, you count.

I'd like to figure out why the hell the other LI fans hate Miranda so much. Is it because they perceive her as a threat where sweet Tali and tortured Jack aren't?

Lurked a bit, figured I'd address this. In recent posts, someone mentions that the game almost tries to pressure you into picking Miranda. Personally, I can definately say that is a part of it. I don't like "default" options, and to me it feels too often in the game that Miranda's opinion/LI is what your "supposed" to do.

Another part is, well, quite frankly, Bioware listens to it's fans. Silly as it is, it's hard to get rid of that feeling of "if another li is getting attention, that threatens my li's existence for Me3". Again, it is quite silly, as both Tali and Miranda are extremely popular, and if any LI's return, imo, it will be them.

I also feel that Miranda's "I'm a cold calculating henchmen just waiting for the charming Mr. bond to come and crack open my shell" archetype is too common. Again, it is merely my opinion...I feel like I see far too many "mirandas" in gaming and movies and it's somewhat dulled me to it. I tend to go for the alternative choices.

Overall though, I don't want Miranda gone as a character. I don't like her, but you aren't supposed to like all the characters in a story. She serves her purpose, and i can certainly understand why others would favor her as a character and an LI.

Afterall.....favoritism aside, that is *quite* a wagon she's draggin'.

My two cents.

That's interesting.

This "I'm a cold calculating henchmen just waiting for the charming Mr. bond to come and crack open my shell" thing, I don't feel it's any different than ANY other romance. With Jack, what are you doing? Cracking her shell. With Tali, what are you doing? Cracking her shell almost literally. Even Ashley's path sort of follows the exact same arc.

In fact in all romances there are barriers of some kind, which is why they're interesting, so I've always found it odd when people roll their eyes at it. I basically think you can devalue any romance into something ridiculous.

And for that matter, I didn't feel any more forced into Miranda's romance than the ME1 romances. You can accidentally romance people quite easily. The only difference is there are less ass shots.

It's just my opinion, I saw the post and thought I'd offer it. As for cracking her shell...I agree with you, to an extent. I just personally felt Miranda's was a little more pronounced than others. I'm sure my experience wasn't the same as everyone else's.

I suppose the difference in my mind is that Jack was basically treated like garbage so I understand that, and Tali...well Tali seemed pretty open in both games to me. I guess I just didn't understand why Miranda was like that considering that she is literally designed to be perfect, and from what we can tell, has performed admirably to those expectations. It's probably because I'm a guy.

I definately agree about the ME1's. Those were far more forceful than any of the ME2's.

[KainrycKarr]

Jebel Krong wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I've never heard you say a word against anyone's LI. Yes, you count.

I'd like to figure out why the hell the other LI fans hate Miranda so much. Is it because they perceive her as a threat where sweet Tali and tortured Jack aren't?

Lurked a bit, figured I'd address this. In recent posts, someone mentions that the game almost tries to pressure you into picking Miranda. Personally, I can definately say that is a part of it. I don't like "default" options, and to me it feels too often in the game that Miranda's opinion/LI is what your "supposed" to do.

Another part is, well, quite frankly, Bioware listens to it's fans. Silly as it is, it's hard to get rid of that feeling of "if another li is getting attention, that threatens my li's existence for Me3". Again, it is quite silly, as both Tali and Miranda are extremely popular, and if any LI's return, imo, it will be them.

I also feel that Miranda's "I'm a cold calculating henchmen just waiting for the charming Mr. bond to come and crack open my shell" archetype is too common. Again, it is merely my opinion...I feel like I see far too many "mirandas" in gaming and movies and it's somewhat dulled me to it. I tend to go for the alternative choices.

Overall though, I don't want Miranda gone as a character. I don't like her, but you aren't supposed to like all the characters in a story. She serves her purpose, and i can certainly understand why others would favor her as a character and an LI.

Afterall.....favoritism aside, that is *quite* a wagon she's draggin'.

My two cents.

neither game 'pressures' you into any romance, they do, however, make a 'default' romance easy to start for the average/casual player not so 'in' to the universe: in me1 it was liara who practically (and unsubtley) threw herself at you after 2 convos, in mass effect 2 it happens to be miranda, and is handled rather better.

Hey, it's just my opinion.

[jtav]

I don't care much for Shepard in the second game, particularly MaleShep and particularly within romances. Perhaps that's why I can play a Shepard who only wants Miranda as status symbol, as something (not someone) he's due as savior of the galaxy.

[Nightwriter]

KainrycKarr wrote...

It's just my opinion, I saw the post and thought I'd offer it. As for cracking her shell...I agree with you, to an extent. I just personally felt Miranda's was a little more pronounced than others. I'm sure my experience wasn't the same as everyone else's.

I suppose the difference in my mind is that Jack was basically treated like garbage so I understand that, and Tali...well Tali seemed pretty open in both games to me. I guess I just didn't understand why Miranda was like that considering that she is literally designed to be perfect, and from what we can tell, has performed admirably to those expectations. It's probably because I'm a guy.

I definately agree about the ME1's. Those were far more forceful than any of the ME2's.

Miranda definitely suffers from us not knowing the specifics of her background and what made her what she is today.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I don't care much for Shepard in the second game, particularly MaleShep and particularly within romances. Perhaps that's why I can play a Shepard who only wants Miranda as status symbol, as something (not someone) he's due as savior of the galaxy.

I won't play like that, but it's a common enough attitude, so why not? And MIranda makes a good status symbol. Strange, usually I dislike people who make good status symbols. Probably because of the suspicion they like being status symbols. Miranda won't like that. At the very least, she won't like being *only* a status symbol.

[Melra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I don't care much for Shepard in the second game, particularly MaleShep and particularly within romances. Perhaps that's why I can play a Shepard who only wants Miranda as status symbol, as something (not someone) he's due as savior of the galaxy.

I won't play like that, but it's a common enough attitude, so why not? And MIranda makes a good status symbol. Strange, usually I dislike people who make good status symbols. Probably because of the suspicion they like being status symbols. Miranda won't like that. At the very least, she won't like being *only* a status symbol.

Fortunately, she'll never be one in my games.  I just wish they would get more emotion to the voice acting at some points and better lines, maybe they should toss the actors into same room for some additional touch, even though having big names have room in their calendar at the same time, might be hard.

[Elyvern]

Something occured to me again (seems to happen quite often)!



So basically Jacob says he doesn't know how to make Miranda tick, but apparently both Paragon and Renegade Shepard does. What would it be about Shepard that makes Miri accept and see him as more than casual relationship material, bearing in mind that a fully Paragon Shepard can truly come across as naive and idealistic, while an outright Renegade a total petty **** sometimes?

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I don't care much for Shepard in the second game, particularly MaleShep and particularly within romances. Perhaps that's why I can play a Shepard who only wants Miranda as status symbol, as something (not someone) he's due as savior of the galaxy.

I won't play like that, but it's a common enough attitude, so why not? And MIranda makes a good status symbol. Strange, usually I dislike people who make good status symbols. Probably because of the suspicion they like being status symbols. Miranda won't like that. At the very least, she won't like being *only* a status symbol.

I wonder how long it would take her to realize what she is and isn't to him? I'd like that story to end with her leaving him, preferably after shooting him. Instead I'll just have him romance someone else in ME3. He got what he wanted and has no patience for the weakness she showed on the base. She's better off. I do have two who are devoted to her, though one is a FemShep. The MaleShep wants nothing more than a life with her.

[Nightwriter]

Elyvern wrote...

Something occured to me again (seems to happen quite often)!

So basically Jacob says he doesn't know how to make Miranda tick, but apparently both Paragon and Renegade Shepard does. What would it be about Shepard that makes Miri accept and see him as more than casual relationship material, bearing in mind that a fully Paragon Shepard can truly come across as naive and idealistic, while an outright Renegade a total petty **** sometimes?

Disregarding the obvious answer that BioWare made it work with Shepard because you're Shepard?

Lots of reasons, one of them being that I think Shepard became closer to Miranda than Jacob did when he helped her save her sister. Shepard got into her personal life. Jacob never did. I often wondered if he even knew she had a sister.

It would have been a nice touch if when you bring Jacob to her loyalty mission, he said, "Why didn't you tell me you had a sister??"

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Something occured to me again (seems to happen quite often)!

So basically Jacob says he doesn't know how to make Miranda tick, but apparently both Paragon and Renegade Shepard does. What would it be about Shepard that makes Miri accept and see him as more than casual relationship material, bearing in mind that a fully Paragon Shepard can truly come across as naive and idealistic, while an outright Renegade a total petty **** sometimes?

I think Jacob doesn't get what makes Miranda tick because he just doesn't have "it". Jacob is overthinking. "It" isn't anything mysterious. There aren't any magical words or a specific behavioural formula he can follow to make Miranda fall in love with him.

"It" is quite simple. Miranda states what "it" is in one of her romance dialogue lines: Shepard has an inner fire that will make people follow him, even to certain death. It has nothing to do with morality. Miranda is attracted to that irresistable sense of purpose and force of will Shepard possesses. She's intrigued by it. That fire isn't something Jacob has.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

I think Jacob doesn't get what makes Miranda tick because he just doesn't have "it". Jacob is overthinking. "It" isn't anything mysterious. There aren't any magical words or a specific behavioural formula he can follow to make Miranda fall in love with him.

"It" is quite simple. Miranda states what "it" is in one of her romance dialogue lines: Shepard has an inner fire that will make people follow him, even to certain death. It has nothing to do with morality. Miranda is attracted to that irresistable sense of purpose and force of will Shepard possesses. She's intrigued by it. That fire isn't something Jacob has.

@Nightwriter - Helping Miri with her sister probably plays a part, but for me personally, it feels like she's presenting Shepard with a reward in return by romancing him.

@fongiel - but that means she becomes just one of the many lives that Shepard the natural leader and hero has touched and influenced, and not so much Shepard the man himself, which I feel, makes less of both of them.  

The reason why I'm asking is it's obvious that Miri is a person with exacting expectations and arguably someone who will find it hard to sustain a serious relationship. If that's the case, then it can't be everything goes, and it can't be for shallow reasons either.

[jtav]

The easiest answer is that we can't have the protagonist not getting any woman he wants now can we? Shepard has a gift for making women fall for him. It's part of that charisma he has. And there is something of the reward about all these romances because they're dependent on loyalty missions, but that's just the way the game goes. Thought that as shot doesn't help because it's as if BW is nudging you and telling you that you can have it if you'll just do the loyalty mission.

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

@Nightwriter - Helping Miri with her sister probably plays a part, but for me personally, it feels like she's presenting Shepard with a reward in return by romancing him.

@fongiel - but that means she becomes just one of the many lives that Shepard the natural leader and hero has touched and influenced, and not so much Shepard the man himself, which I feel, makes less of both of them.  

The reason why I'm asking is it's obvious that Miri is a person with exacting expectations and arguably someone who will find it hard to sustain a serious relationship. If that's the case, then it can't be everything goes, and it can't be for shallow reasons either.

Unfortunately, due to the innumerable permutations of Shepard's background, service history, and morality, it's impossible to place exactly what it is that makes your Shepard different from Jacob. The only thing they all have in common is that fire. Yes, it's cheap and overdone (every video game/movie hero seems to have some undefineable property that makes them special - undefineable because the writers can't be bothered to define it) but that's all we have. I like to think it's the fire that intrigues Miranda, but it's something specific about your Shepard that keeps her around.

In my case, my Shepard's charisma is all an act. He's actually an extremely guilt-ridden individual that actually struggles with some of the same issues Miranda does. Other than his quest to stop the Reapers, he really doesn't know who he really is anymore. He's an example of what happens when an once-idealistic soldier is forced to make one too many sacrifices, watch one friend too many die, witness one too many horrors that make him question the righteousness of those he fights for. Basically, Miranda sees something of herself in him. They can understand each other in a way no one else can. That's just my story. Yours will be different because Shepard is intended to be a blank slate.

I don't really like the idea that the primary reason Miranda is attracted to Shepard is because he helped her with her sister. Miranda's sister is a catalyst, but making her the foundation of the relationship makes it too dependent on chance. What if the incident with Miranda's sister had happened five years earlier and Jacob had been the one to help Miranda through it? Would Miranda and Jacob be in a serious relationship in ME2? For some reason I doubt it.

[jtav]

I think it is that charisma and force of personality she's responding to and the fact that Shepard is a man of action who makes things happen. Can you imagine Jacob telling people to fall in line or get out of the way? I can't.

[Elyvern]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

I think the primary reason Miranda romances with Shepard is because she's probably the only guy she's ever open up to.  Except for her friend Niket.  For example Miranda always talks about her genes and how she can only take credit for her mistakes.  And Shepard talks about "it's your personality and spirit what makes you great" and "I can't admire your mind...you give your father to much etc".  These are the things that make Miranda tick...or to define tick "what makes a person function charcteristically or what motivates them".  Jacob doesn't really know any of these things.  And Miranda has said before "I don't like discussing personal matters".

As much as I hate how this scenario paints Miranda as a "poor little rich girl" it does seem plausible to me personally. And I agree with you, fongiel that Shepard's "fire" would only be the foundation to be built upon. For example, anyone, even Jacob, could say things like "it's your personality and spirit that makes you great" but Shepard would probably be the only one with the clout and credentials to make that line cut through mere flattery and seriously make Miranda re-evaluate her self-worth.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

I think it is that charisma and force of personality she's responding to and the fact that Shepard is a man of action who makes things happen. Can you imagine Jacob telling people to fall in line or get out of the way? I can't.

Shepard as a man of action is also a good candidate. Especially pre-Freedom's Progress where she snarks at him about making up his mind if he wants to to talk about the mission or actually do it.

[jtav]

Personally, I'm hoping I can kill Shepard, at least some of them. I still believe Miranda can do better.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

Personally, I'm hoping I can kill Shepard, at least some of them. I still believe Miranda can do better.

But Shepard can be whatever you want him to be. In Shepard's case, "But honey, I can change!" is actually a viable excuse!

[jtav]

fongiel24 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Personally, I'm hoping I can kill Shepard, at least some of them. I still believe Miranda can do better.

But Shepard can be whatever you want him to be. In Shepard's case, "But honey, I can change!" is actually a viable excuse!

If I could only play him as a bit more human and capable of doubt and fear. It's mostly a problem with MaleShep, particularly in the romances. FemShep doesn't grate on my nerves in the same way.
 

[fongiel24]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

I wouldn't make assumptions.   I won't say she's a virigin and I won't say she's had sex before. I think it's better off to leave it like that unless it's a character like Jack.

Miranda is a gorgeous 35-year-old woman who could easily pass for 25. She's travelled all over the galaxy and met all sorts of interesting people, many of them incredibly talented, deadly, or both. She slinks around in an outfit that she's probably well aware displays her "assets" to anybody that wants to see them.

It's probably safe to say Shepard isn't her first.

jtav wrote...

If I could only play him as a bit more
human and capable of doubt and fear. It's mostly a problem with
MaleShep, particularly in the romances. FemShep doesn't grate on my
nerves in the same way.
 

I just retcon it in my writing as Shepard using the fearlessness and unshakeable confidence as a facade. I agree that the game makes it awfully hard to play him as a human being though.

Modifié par fongiel24, 21 août 2010 - 01:29 .