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[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Regarding the XO thread, I was mainly concerned with the claim that Miranda wants to stand in the limelight, and that she'd risk the mission to do so. Because (1) I get the opposite impression, namely that she wants to avoid the limelight - a few months ago I wrote she has no vanity, and I still think so, and (2) that would make her both unprofessional and stupid (she'd risk her own life, too), and she is neither.

The idea that Miranda does anything out of vanity is absurd. Her actions are almost always driven by what she feels ie necessary to accomplish the task at hand. That example of her brusque welcome to Jack on the Normandy that Polaris and some of the others kept referring to isn't an example of her letting a personal dislike get in the way of doing her job, it's an expression of Miranda having no time for the nonsense of babying Jack.

Not all soldiers can be motivated with positive reinforcement and reason. Some are actually headcases that need a heavy hand to bring them discipline and keep them in line. Whether Jack truly qualifies as one of the latter is open for debate, but Miranda clearly believes she belongs to this category and I believe her subsequent actions show this.

However, Miranda's refusal to allow vanity to affect her professionalism doesn't mean she isn't affected by pride. Perversely, I think she takes great pride in her accomplishments but isn't willing to take credit for them. She draws self-worth but not self-esteem from her actions. Being so good at what she does helps her justify her existence but she doesn't feel it's a reflection of any of the positive character traits that she developed and possesses. She'll take offense at having her accomplishments belittled because you're attacking her raison d'etre. It's a different kind of insecurity than that which some of her critics want to accuse her of.

You're spot on here.

As for beginning to overcome this problem, it's interesting to note how differently she reacts the two times you touch that topic. The first time is pre-romance, when you can say "Your spirit and personality are what make you great" and she answers with "I'm not sure I believe you, but thanks for saying it.". Later, in the romance, you can say to her "You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them", and she answers with a more surprised and heartfelt "Thank you.", as if she was surprised that someone who came to know her better would still say this, and as if that statement, made by someone she came to trust more and more, did really have weight now.

[jtav]

I wish we could have a modified version of that line with the same heartfelt "Thank you" as a response.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

I assure you I despise her default outfit and appreciate her character despite it. Bioware miscaculated severely. I wish they'd tone down the sexualization.

the gamer 'core' audience (teenage boys/young men) would disagree. i don't mind the sexualization because the depth is also there - hence this thread.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I wish we could have a modified version of that line with the same heartfelt "Thank you" as a response.

What would you change in that line? My main objection is the company, so to speak. Some lines leading up to this are so cheesy I almost can't take them.

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...

I assure you I despise her default outfit and appreciate her character despite it. Bioware miscaculated severely. I wish they'd tone down the sexualization.

the gamer 'core' audience (teenage boys/young men) would disagree. i don't mind the sexualization because the depth is also there - hence this thread.

Really? I get the impression it's split down the middle, though I don't know the demographics. Many dislike her default outfit on grounds of realism and practicality, and I don't get the impression they're only the older or female audience.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I wish we could have a modified version of that line with the same heartfelt "Thank you" as a response.

What would you change in that line? My main objection is the company, so to speak. Some lines leading up to this are so cheesy I almost can't take them.

I accidentally left out "as a FemShep" For me, the cheese doesn't occur until the "admire your body" exchange.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for beginning to overcome this problem, it's interesting to note how differently she reacts the two times you touch that topic. The first time is pre-romance, when you can say "Your spirit and personality are what make you great" and she answers with "I'm not sure I believe you, but thanks for saying it.". Later, in the romance, you can say to her "You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them", and she answers with a more surprised and heartfelt "Thank you.", as if she was surprised that someone who came to know her better would still say this, and as if that statement, made by someone she came to trust more and more, did really have weight now.

I never really thought about the parallelism between those two conversations in that way. I guess I never really noticed the connection. Then again, I usually don't get that second conversation because I take the Renegade option most of the time.

If Miranda is ever able to overcome her issues, how do you guys think it'll happen? Dam breaking with a final epiphany about her value as a person after a long period of someone like Shepard trying to build her up? Or a gradual progression of little baby steps?

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...

I assure
you I despise her default outfit and appreciate her character despite
it. Bioware miscaculated severely. I wish they'd tone down the
sexualization.

the gamer 'core' audience (teenage
boys/young men) would disagree. i don't mind the sexualization because
the depth is also there - hence this thread.

Miranda's sexualization is a bit much at times, but I'm probably more okay with it than a lot of people in this thread. I can accept it because I rationalize her clothing choices as a conscious decision on her part. She's a covert agent, not a soldier, and thus the completion of her missions often hinges more on how well she can manipulate people than on shooting the bad guys repeatedly in the face. She's obviously very aware of her gifts and one of them is her physical attractiveness. Using that either as a passive distraction or as an active means of manipulation could be extremely effective (while you're distracted by the gorgeous woman in the skintight catsuit, she slinks up to you... and slips a knife between your ribs).

I have a far harder time accepting Samara's choice of attire. I find it so ridiculous that I can't take her character seriously, despite it actually being written and voiced very well. Everytime I see her introduction on Illium I want to laugh. Unlike Miranda, Samara actually does do her job by shooting the bad guys in the face so wearing such a revealing outfit serves no purpose. The high heels... don't get me started on Samara's heels.

Modifié par fongiel24, 24 août 2010 - 08:38 .

[jtav]

The problem is we never seeing her using her looks in any way so the outfit becomes nothing more than really blatant fanservice.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I wish we could have a modified version of that line with the same heartfelt "Thank you" as a response.

What would you change in that line? My main objection is the company, so to speak. Some lines leading up to this are so cheesy I almost can't take them.

I accidentally left out "as a FemShep" For me, the cheese doesn't occur until the "admire your body" exchange.

I agree, it would be nice to be able to say that as a femShep as well. As for the cheese, I just noticed that the other part I don't like ("What matters is how we feel") occurs later, but the one you mentioned is the worst offender by far, and it's - q.e.d. - preceding "You give your father too much credit". Ugh.

[jtav]

The admiring your body exchange occurs after those lines, not before. My other hated line is Shepard's "Oh, I'm definitely interested." The way he says it...I'm a little disturbed by how easily I can play the romance as having no meaning to him.

[Caihn]

jtav wrote...

The admiring your body exchange occurs after those lines, not before. My other hated line is Shepard's "Oh, I'm definitely interested." The way he says it...I'm a little disturbed by how easily I can play the romance as having no meaning to him.

I think you can avoid this line. If you don't speak to Miranda between the "promise" scene and Omega 4 relay.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for beginning to overcome this problem, it's interesting to note how differently she reacts the two times you touch that topic. The first time is pre-romance, when you can say "Your spirit and personality are what make you great" and she answers with "I'm not sure I believe you, but thanks for saying it.". Later, in the romance, you can say to her "You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them", and she answers with a more surprised and heartfelt "Thank you.", as if she was surprised that someone who came to know her better would still say this, and as if that statement, made by someone she came to trust more and more, did really have weight now.

I never really thought about the parallelism between those two conversations in that way. I guess I never really noticed the connection. Then again, I usually don't get that second conversation because I take the Renegade option most of the time.

Heh...as I said, in my mind I mix and match them so I can get the best of both worlds - the kiss and this statement.

If Miranda is ever able to overcome her issues, how do you guys think it'll happen? Dam breaking with a final epiphany about her value as a person after a long period of someone like Shepard trying to build her up? Or a gradual progression of little baby steps?

A gradual progression of little baby steps followed by an epiphany that won't be recognized as such until some time later.
Really, I have no idea, but I think self-esteem is not a one or zero switch where you either have it or not. A required and very big step is to deal with what her father has done and how she reacted to it. I don't think she really appreciates what she's done for herself as a teenager by running away and by saving Oriana. I think this is more admirable than anything she has achieved since then, the first time that "spirit and personality" Shepard mentions has manifested itself in a life-changing way, out of a position of powerlessness. She needs to finish it, break the mental hold her father still has on her as she has already broken the physical hold. And preferably before he dies, because only then she'll know she has won.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
The admiring your body exchange occurs after those lines, not before.

I don't recall the exact sequence, but according to gutty's  dialogue tree it's in the same line immediately preceding "You give your father too much credit", though her answer comes after.

My other hated line is Shepard's "Oh, I'm definitely interested." The way he says it...I'm a little disturbed by how easily I can play the romance as having no meaning to him.

Oh yes, I almost forgot that. Creepy Shepard.

Edit:
The discussion here was so interesting that I've been up much longer than I can afford. I'm going to be grumpy at work tomorrow. Good night.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 août 2010 - 09:09 .

[jtav]

Are we talking about the same dialogue? I'm referring to "I wouldn't mind if you admired my body."/You wouldn't, huh?" Feels like Shepard spends most of the romance acting like a creep.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

The problem is we never seeing her using her looks in any way so the outfit becomes nothing more than really blatant fanservice.

This is particularly unfortunate given that she was sold initially as a femme fatale. Then again, ME2 would be a little too easy if Miranda could just seduce, manipulate, and backstab her way through every confrontation .  The fact we never get to see Miranda use her femme fatale skills is as big a disappointment to me as us never being able to really see Miranda's intelligence and keen tactical mind in action.

Miranda has a veritable Swiss Army knife-type collection of skills she can call upon to complete a mission yet all we ever get to see is her biotics and combat ability.

[jtav]

The ideal place would be Samara's loyalty mission. She's better suited for that than Shepard of the Bad Pickup Lines. Or she could solve certain persuade checks for you. I want my femme fatale.

[fongiel24]

Agreed. I never bought Samara's line that "Shepard is an artist on the battlefield and therefore Morinth will be attracted". There's nothing artistic about what Shepard does and nothing in Shepard's background or service history suggests he has the refinement to fake the mix of culture, eccentricity, and vulnerability that attracts Morinth. Miranda's upbringing, education, and field experience make it far more likely she can attract Morinth.

Edit: I think I remember Samara also saying Morinth likes to prey on lonely individuals that are isolated from their peers. Although Miranda is capable of hiding this aspect of herself, I think Morinth might still be able to pick up on it, making Miranda an even more ideal (but also more vulnerable) candidate for this mission than Shepard.

Modifié par fongiel24, 24 août 2010 - 09:30 .

[Caihn]

Shepard: I can't admire your body or your mind? You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them.
Miranda: Oh. Thank you.

I really like these lines, especially the parts in bold.

Miranda: And perhaps I wouldn't mind if you admired my body.
Shepard: You wouldn't, huh?
Miranda: I think I could live with it.
Shepard: It's only fair. You've had two years to look at me. And I was wearing less than you are.

This part isn't as good as the previous one.
It's a little weird the way they flirt, but it's not soapy, so It doesn't bother me.
I prefer this version than the renegade one, but I wish this version would also have a kiss scene.
 

Modifié par Yannkee, 24 août 2010 - 09:33 .

[tommyt_1994]

Yannkee wrote...

Shepard: I can't admire your body or your mind? You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them.
Miranda: Oh. Thank you.

I really like these lines, especially the parts in bold.

Miranda: And perhaps I wouldn't mind if you admired my body.
Shepard: You wouldn't, huh?
Miranda: I think I could live with it.
Shepard: It's only fair. You've had two years to look at me. And I was wearing less than you are.

This part isn't as good as the previous one.
It's a little weird the way they flirt, but it's not soapy, so It doesn't bother me.
I prefer this version than the renegade one, but I wish this version would also have a kiss scene.
 

Arghh I really can't make up my mind about which option I like best. the "I can't admire your body or your mind?" line would be my clear cut favprite if it wasn't for the "body" part of the "admire your body or your mind". I dont really have a problem with the flirting that follows, I wish it ended with a kiss scene though.

On the other hand, the kiss scene rubs me to wrong way because of the situation in which Shep uses these lines. Miri says "Every one of your accomplishments is due to your skill. The only things I can take credit for are my mistakes" this is a very emotional scene, and i dont think the teasing and the "genetic mutt" lines are really appropriate.

I cannot for the life of me make up my mind about this scene and the hug scene. With the hug scene, I feel like promising her that you won't die is just telling her what she wants to hear, while in reality, they would all probably end up dead. But at the same time, I feel myself wanting to promise her that. Argh:pinched:

[fongiel24]

I don't like the first sentence at all (I can't admire your body or your mind?). It's not cheesy, but the wording sounds awkward to me. I wish Shepard had said something to the effect of admiring Miranda's character and inner strength, rather than her "body and mind". Even if we drop the reference to her body, the reference to Miranda's mind can still be interpreted as referring to something bequeathed to her by her father, and thus not something she can take credit for.

[Prudii Aden]

tommyt_1994 wrote...
Did I invade your mind with mine, log onto your forum account, and type out my Shepard's character, personality, why his personality was the way it was, and his feelings towards Miranda and post it here? . I haven't given my Shepards much in-depth thought as you have, but our Shepards are almost identical

I think you have it the wrong way around tommy.

[Caihn]

fongiel24 wrote...
Even if we drop the reference to her body, the reference to Miranda's mind can still be interpreted as referring to something bequeathed to her by her father, and thus not something she can take credit for.

Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them.

Shepard want to show Miranda that he admires her, not because she has genetic superior abilities, but because of what she has done with them.

[tommyt_1994]

Prudii Aden wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...
Did I invade your mind with mine, log onto your forum account, and type out my Shepard's character, personality, why his personality was the way it was, and his feelings towards Miranda and post it here? . I haven't given my Shepards much in-depth thought as you have, but our Shepards are almost identical

I think you have it the wrong way around tommy.

but I'm not the one who made that post, you did. So for it to bee the other way around, I would have had to be the one to make the post.

Im about tofinally start up my newest playthrough, Spacer, War Hero, Infiltrator, Miri-mancing Shepard. I'll be taking her, everywhere with me this run. Alongside either Kasumi or Garrus I believe. I actually read a fanfic once where Miranda and Garrus were in a relationship post-ME2. It was quite interesting, I could actually see them working

[fongiel24]

Yannkee wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...
Even if we drop the reference to her body, the reference to Miranda's mind can still be interpreted as referring to something bequeathed to her by her father, and thus not something she can take credit for.

Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them.

Shepard want to show Miranda that he admires her, not because she has genetic superior abilities, but because of what she has done with them.

Yeah, and my point is that his complimenting her mind can be interpreted as having nothing to do with anything she's done.

[jtav]

Permission to indulge in my sentimental side and say what I would have said?