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[Caihn]

snfonseka wrote...

Breakdown Boy wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Breakdown Boy wrote...

I believe that Miranda would have had multiple physical relations in her lifetime, whether there was actual romantic feelings involved is another matter. Her lack of connection with a father figure and the fact that she never had a mother could cause the need for physical intimacy as a replacement for her lack of connection.

What I'm saying is that she would have no problem with casual sex. That's why the relationship with Shep confuses her and makes her feel different, she never felt that way before.
So I do believe she slept with Jacob, but she treated it casualy as where Jacob thought there could be more and then Miranda most likely ended it there.

Agreed. I never imagined otherwise regarding her. But, what I think is that she won't treat "casual sex" so casualy as Jack. If we taking about "the possibility of having STD".... Jack is in the top of the list !

I son't think human STD/ STI's even exist in ME2 as the codex desrcibed 'genetic deseases' being eliminated in human gene. That would suggest that those type of infections just aren't carried around anymore.

But besides that, I don't believe Miri would be that irisponsible.

You probably right about STD. I just brought it up because someone mentioned about that earlier. As for "sex", it's all about our own ideas, imaginations.... Isn't it.

Anyway my idea about the topic is... Miranda probably have used her attractiveness / sex... as a tool for "get the job done", when it is necessary to do so.

Her attractiveness : yes
Sex : no

[fongiel24]

snfonseka wrote...

Anyway my idea about the topic is... Miranda probably have used her attractiveness / sex... as a tool for "get the job done", when it is necessary to do so.

I think Miranda would be willing to use sex if absolutely necessary, but I doubt she's ever had to actually resort to it. She's probably good enough at the whole seduction side of her femme fatale persona that she never needs to allow things to go that far. She's beautiful enough, smart enough, and probably well-trained and experienced enough that she can have most men (and many women) twisted around her finger with little more than a batted eyelash.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I wonder who her first boyfriend was and what that was like. Did she spot him herself? Did her dad shove her at the son of a businessman he was trying to win over? Did she care for the guy? Did she just act the way she was expected to, becoming ever more disgusted at how easily and eagerly he fell for her act? When did she have time for him, with her father dictating her whole schedule? Did she sneak to see him? Was it against the rules? Did it happen after she'd already run away?

I wonder if Ieldra has something cooking like that in his fic.

So far I've not planned to focus on these things all that much, but that may change yet.  Here's the background I'm using: Her father wouldn't have hurried to shove someone at her, reluctant as he is to accept anyone but him having an influence on her. She lived a very isolated life with little opportunity.
She did feel something for Niket, though. I'm not yet sure how far I'll let it go in my fic, but for reasons you'll read in the next chapter, nothing could have happened at an earlier age than 14.
The net result may be that she didn't have a boyfriend before she ran away. Later, I'll have her combine studies at a university with Cerberus training and her first Cerberus undercover job, where she has to prove herself to them. Think of a setup similar to "Alias". There'll be enough opportunities then.

[Ieldra]

I wonder why people are so opposed to the idea that Miranda may have used sex to "get the ob done" if necessary. My take on it is that she wouldn't have liked it, but if it's the easiest way and avoided unpleasant side-effects like collateral damage, she would've done it. Also, fooling someone this way may be much more satisfying than simply killing him.

[snfonseka]

fongiel24 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Anyway my idea about the topic is... Miranda probably have used her attractiveness / sex... as a tool for "get the job done", when it is necessary to do so.

I think Miranda would be willing to use sex if absolutely necessary, but I doubt she's ever had to actually resort to it. She's probably good enough at the whole seduction side of her femme fatale persona that she never needs to allow things to go that far. She's beautiful enough, smart enough, and probably well-trained and experienced enough that she can have most men (and many women) twisted around her finger with little more than a batted eyelash.

Not all men are that weak ....

[fongiel24]

snfonseka wrote...

Not all men are that weak ....

If simple seduction doesn't work, sex is unlikely to either. In many ways, seduction is more powerful than sex. The sex is like the carrot. The carrot-on-the-stick loses its utility if you actually give the carrot to the donkey. As long as her mark is lusting after her, Miranda can string them along until she gives in and gives them what they want (sex). As soon as the mark has gotten that, what reason would they have to keep doing what Miranda wants? Once their lust for her is satiated, she loses a lot of leverage. 

Regarding the comment that not all men are that weak, any man strong enough to resist Miranda's charms is not going to suddenly fall under her sway just because she agreed to give herself to them. For men that aren't as weak, Miranda would likely resort to other measures than sex and seduction.

[snfonseka]

fongiel24 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Not all men are that weak ....

If simple seduction doesn't work, sex is unlikely to either. In many ways, seduction is more powerful than sex. The sex is like the carrot. The carrot-on-the-stick loses its utility if you actually give the carrot to the donkey. As long as her mark is lusting after her, Miranda can string them along until she gives in and gives them what they want (sex). As soon as the mark has gotten that, what reason would they have to keep doing what Miranda wants? Once their lust for her is satiated, she loses a lot of leverage. 

Regarding the comment that not all men are that weak, any man strong enough to resist Miranda's charms is not going to suddenly fall under her sway just because she agreed to give herself to them. For men that aren't as weak, Miranda would likely resort to other measures than sex and seduction.

I like that sentences...

[Ieldra]

SweetPuff wrote...

My first post...

THAT wink!

Very appropriate for a first post in this thread Welcome!

[Elyvern]

Wow, lots of interesting posts to respond to while I was away!

Due to my ongoing problems with BSN, I can't quote so...

@Ieldra: I don't know how to say this, but ergh, I *am* fiddling with a fic on Miranda. I just couldn't resist it. And I was thinking about what you said on reconciling the engine room scene. What went through my mind in that other thread about Jacob's line and the constant tirade about Miri's choice of the engine room was "I'm glad no one decided to bring up the romance conflict line where she says she wants everyone to know Shepard is hers because that would have added more fuel to that fire." But the more I thought about it, the more I feel if I can't reconcile it, it's likely a case of my projections of what I want a character to be, and attempting to put Miri on my personal pedestal. It's dangerous grounds.

Short is I'm beginning to turn around to the notion that yes, she deliberately chose the engine room for a reason, and that reason may to assert her control over Shepard, and IF someone like Jack or Kasumi caught the wind of it, she probably wouldn't have sweated it, and would let the rumours propagate because it could suit her purpose - to assert that Shepard is hers. I can imagine that there is probably a strong demarcation as to the kind of person she presents herself as in public and the kind of person she really is privately. ie. she can be all professional in public, but privately she's a very possessive kind of person who needs to be in control. And sometimes, it spills over.

@fongiel - I think your ideas of a darker protrayal may be closer to mine than you think. And I think I agree with your hypothesis as to why she and Jacob didn't work out. I can imagine this scene where they were having an intimate moment, and Jacob puts the shoe in his mouth (again) when he mentions about his idea of a future for them, something along the lines of retiring, picket fences and Miranda just freezes, and reverts to ice queen on him, leaving poor Jacob with no idea what he said wrong. Miri knows what she wants, and a suburban home on some planet is definitely not one of them. After that she just shuts him out, never gave him an explanation other than no, it isn't going to work out. 

Ok, I better fire off this post before I lose the wall of text from my mouse problems. More incoming.  

[Elyvern]

So far, I've written fourteen pages worth of a post-reaper fic (which undoubtly will end up with shooting myself in the foot come ME3) and ironicaly, the character that I have the most problems with is Shepard--because he's such a...blank slate. And to make character interaction engaging, I've basically thrown out all my constructs of Shepard, ie. the shepards I play. Somewhere along the line, I'm going to have to address that yes, Miri still did feel something for Jacob, whether it's romantic feelings or otherwise. Because if she didn't, she needn't have sent him information about the Gernsbeck. And I'm writing Shepard to have had a relationship with Ashley and then sent her off to her death on Virmire.

Both of them aren't teenagers, they come with personal baggage which must be dealt with if they are to have a shot at a long-term relationship. The other thing I'm toying with is with such a long life expectancy, it's actually possible to opt for a "temporary retirement" to recharge, even 5-10 years wouldn't be an issue, and then to jump back into the action. Although right now, I'm going along the lines of killing Shepard off eventually.

My struggle with writing both character is I keep needing to fight the centrifugal tendency to push them towards the Marty Stu/Mary Sue status, as well as my paragon (no pun intended) pedestals. It's especially bad for Shepard because the game lets you play him that way. So I've been attempting to explore character flaws and elaborate on them within the framework of what we know from the games. I know for sure, one line I want Shepard to say to Miranda in my fic is, "you're actually a damn bad judge of character." considering she's been wrong again and again about people in ME2--TIM, Niket, even Shepard himself.

Posting again, in case I lose all of this...

[Elyvern]

@ fongiel - I have absolutely no problems with the idea that Miranda probably had quite a number of sexual partners in the past, and it's likely, at the start, she may be looking for something more than a fling, but is
constantly disappointed because the people she found herself interested with just don't meet her expectations one way or another, and at the point of ME2's beginning, she may be disillusioned and basically gave up that possibility for good, instead choosing to throw herself into her work. It's not a tragedy, she is strong enough and contented enough with work to sustain her through life. Until Shepard comes along, but here again, it's not a given. These two will have to work and keep working to get it right. Therein lies the fun.

My impressions of Miranda using sex as seduction is yes, she would, especially when gun-barrel diplomancy is absolutely out of the question. But personality-wise, she's just not a people person. She would use her body, the act itself to get what she wants, but she wouldn't be able to accomplish the job if it involves subsuming her naturally dominating personality and keeping it under check for long periods of time. That alone makes her a ******-poor deep cover spy.

Which is also why, I feel I would have to write Shepard as the one who makes most of the emotional compromises. She can be terribly unbending and the neccessity of meeting someone in the middle, to compromise may be one of the biggest challenges for her.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I wonder why people are so opposed to the idea that Miranda may have used sex to "get the ob done" if necessary. My take on it is that she wouldn't have liked it, but if it's the easiest way and avoided unpleasant side-effects like collateral damage, she would've done it. Also, fooling someone this way may be much more satisfying than simply killing him.

I'm not opposed to it. As I recall, the first time I suggested it, I was nearly hounded off the thread. I agree with fongiel that she finds the promise of sex more useful, but she'll resort to actual sex when it suits her. Probably as part of an assassination or deep cover mission. But honey traps aren't her preferred tool. That would be stealth or hacking. In the story I'm working on now, Miranda gives Liara a crash course on how to survive and succeed as an information broker. Flirtation comes up. Murder comes up. Having sex doesn't. And fongiel, can I steal your carrot on a stick analogy?

[lazuli]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder why people are so opposed to the idea that Miranda may have used sex to "get the ob done" if necessary. My take on it is that she wouldn't have liked it, but if it's the easiest way and avoided unpleasant side-effects like collateral damage, she would've done it. Also, fooling someone this way may be much more satisfying than simply killing him.

Perhaps jealousy comes into play here.  Posting regularly on a character's fan thread implies a certain devotion to that character (or a desire to troll that character's fans).  I can see how the idea of Miranda sleeping with men before Shepard could create some issues for people with more traditional views of women's sexuality.

[jtav]

Maybe jealousy does play a role. I don't feel any myself, but I don't identify with Shepard and ship Miranda with other people.

[Elyvern]

lazuli wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder why people are so opposed to the idea that Miranda may have used sex to "get the ob done" if necessary. My take on it is that she wouldn't have liked it, but if it's the easiest way and avoided unpleasant side-effects like collateral damage, she would've done it. Also, fooling someone this way may be much more satisfying than simply killing him.

Perhaps jealousy comes into play here.  Posting regularly on a character's fan thread implies a certain devotion to that character (or a desire to troll that character's fans).  I can see how the idea of Miranda sleeping with men before Shepard could create some issues for people with more traditional views of women's sexuality.

You've hit it right on the spot, and it's something that writers for popular media have to be aware of, no matter how it's a deplorably case of double-standards. In fact, I'd venture so far as to say it' more prevalent in media that is targetted mainly at a male audience, ie. higher likelihood of female characters that are sexually uninitiated or socially awkward, or if they are sexually experienced and mature, they become a sort of trophy for the male protagonists, like the Bond films. 

Not to mention the need to provide options for males to project their idealisation of potential girlfriend material onto a female character. So it's okay for male characters to be shown having differnt sexual encounters, but a big no-no for female characters. Bioware generally handles some of these tastefully and in a way that doesn't intrude into the story-telling heavily, but they are in there. Not all maybe, but they do exist. 

[Jebel Krong]

couple of screens today, i have finished my pc playthrough and i got some real good ones from the end of the game that i will eventually sort through and post a few of.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Caihn]

lazuli wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder why people are so opposed to the idea that Miranda may have used sex to "get the ob done" if necessary. My take on it is that she wouldn't have liked it, but if it's the easiest way and avoided unpleasant side-effects like collateral damage, she would've done it. Also, fooling someone this way may be much more satisfying than simply killing him.

Perhaps jealousy comes into play here.  Posting regularly on a character's fan thread implies a certain devotion to that character (or a desire to troll that character's fans).  I can see how the idea of Miranda sleeping with men before Shepard could create some issues for people with more traditional views of women's sexuality.

I don't have problem with Miranda sleeping with other guys. I have a problem with what have been said before.

I think she didn't sleep with Jacob, because l analysed what's been said in the game and because l think Jacob is absolutely not a guy fot Miranda.

I think she doesn't sleep to get the job done. I agree she could used seduction, but not sex. She would find an another way. Yes she would use her assets, her attractiveness, but she keep sex for her private life.
Miranda is the kind of woman who would have sex because she wants to, not because it is necessary.

To me, Miranda had only a few relations before Shepard. She doesn't trust someone easely, and she doesn't have so much free time. Also, her personnality and her behaviour during the romance proved she's not a casual sex addict.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I wonder why people are so opposed to the idea that Miranda may have used sex to "get the ob done" if necessary. My take on it is that she wouldn't have liked it, but if it's the easiest way and avoided unpleasant side-effects like collateral damage, she would've done it. Also, fooling someone this way may be much more satisfying than simply killing him.

I'm not opposed to it. As I recall, the first time I suggested it, I was nearly hounded off the thread. I agree with fongiel that she finds the promise of sex more useful, but she'll resort to actual sex when it suits her. Probably as part of an assassination or deep cover mission. But honey traps aren't her preferred tool. That would be stealth or hacking. In the story I'm working on now, Miranda gives Liara a crash course on how to survive and succeed as an information broker. Flirtation comes up. Murder comes up. Having sex doesn't. And fongiel, can I steal your carrot on a stick analogy?

I don't have a problem with Miranda using sex to get an op done, I just don't see very many occassions where allowing things to progress that far would be necessary or desirable. Maybe in longterm deep cover assignments where she has to pose as someone's girlfriend, but in short term engagements if you had to allow the mark to make it all the way to home plate, I suspect you did something wrong.

Miranda seems to take a pragmatic approach to most things and I doubt sex would be very different. If she needs to use it, she will, but it's really not the most ideal tool (see my carrot analogy that seems so popular <_<). Also, as a dominant personality, I can't see Miranda ever allowing the other person to dictate the course of a relationship, even a false cover one. If she thinks the mark is kind of attractive and interesting, she might sleep with them because she wants to and it doesn't hinder her mission. But just sleeping with someone because she has to to get the mission done? I don't think she'd be caught in that kind of situation very often.

@jtav - Go ahead, steal away. Are you planning to use it as part of Miranda's lessons to Liara?

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I wonder why people are so opposed to the idea that Miranda may have used sex to "get the ob done" if necessary. My take on it is that she wouldn't have liked it, but if it's the easiest way and avoided unpleasant side-effects like collateral damage, she would've done it. Also, fooling someone this way may be much more satisfying than simply killing him.

I'm not opposed to it. As I recall, the first time I suggested it, I was nearly hounded off the thread. I agree with fongiel that she finds the promise of sex more useful, but she'll resort to actual sex when it suits her. Probably as part of an assassination or deep cover mission. But honey traps aren't her preferred tool. That would be stealth or hacking. In the story I'm working on now, Miranda gives Liara a crash course on how to survive and succeed as an information broker. Flirtation comes up. Murder comes up. Having sex doesn't. And fongiel, can I steal your carrot on a stick analogy?

I don't have a problem with Miranda using sex to get an op done, I just don't see very many occassions where allowing things to progress that far would be necessary or desirable. Maybe in longterm deep cover assignments where she has to pose as someone's girlfriend, but in short term engagements if you had to allow the mark to make it all the way to home plate, I suspect you did something wrong.

Yes, I agree with that. I was more concerned with a more fundamental opposition to the idea expressed by a few people here. I recall debates about exactly this on one of the old threads, and things did become rather heated at times.

I understand some people have conventional views on a few things. But why they'd be attracted to Miranda in the first place remains a mystery to me. To me it is *very* clear that in sexuality she is anything but conventional, to say nothing of traditional, and in general morality she has a strong tendency towards pragmatism. Having to read anything else is like meeting those types who never believe you if you tell them something about yourself, but instead insist your true nature is something they know, but you don't. It isn't any less annoying because it's applied to Miranda.

Miranda seems to take a pragmatic approach to most things and I doubt sex would be very different. If she needs to use it, she will, but it's really not the most ideal tool (see my carrot analogy that seems so popular <_<). Also, as a dominant personality, I can't see Miranda ever allowing the other person to dictate the course of a relationship, even a false cover one. If she thinks the mark is kind of attractive and interesting, she might sleep with them because she wants to and it doesn't hinder her mission. But just sleeping with someone because she has to to get the mission done? I don't think she'd be caught in that kind of situation very often.

I subscribe to that as well.

BTW, your carrot analogy is indeed very apt and deservedly popular.

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...
I think she doesn't sleep to get the job done. I agree she could used seduction, but not sex. She would find an another way. Yes she would use her assets, her attractiveness, but she keep sex for her private life.
Miranda is the kind of woman who would have sex because she wants to, not because it is necessary.

Why do you think her pragmatism wouldn't stop at killing, but would stop at sex? That makes no sense.

To me, Miranda had only a few relations before Shepard. She doesn't trust someone easely, and she doesn't have so much free time. Also, her personnality and her behaviour during the romance proved she's not a casual sex addict.

I don't think she treats sex casually. But she is experienced. You don't get like her without, well, experience. What exactly that means, is open to interpretation, but the result is not. 

[jtav]

I think most of her sexual encounters were as part of short-term, not very serious relationships. She isn't self-destructive. Sex is fun and healthy for her. She won't sleep with just anyone, but she isn't necessarily looking for anything deep. She's much more cautious with her heart than her body, and the two aren't always linked.

[fongiel24]

I wouldn't characterize anything Miranda does as casual, but if she's got some downtime and she's at a cocktail or wine bar (I can't really see her at a club for fun) and she meets someone she finds interesting and attractive, I can see her going for a one night stand and leaving them in the morning with a fake name and number. Her profession doesn't lend itself well to relationships and I think Miranda realizes that better than most. However, she knows what she wants and antiquated notions about morality or promiscuity aren't going to stop her.

This attitude is the opposite of Jack, who I think has sex precisely because she doesn't know what she wants. I find Miranda incredibly attractive because she's not someone who needs you to rescue her, to teach her, to protect her, or engage in any kind of "white knight" nonsense. She's with you because she's genuinely attracted to you and is giving you a chance to prove you've got something to sustain a relationship beyond good looks and an interesting outlook on life.

Unfortunately for most of her partners (including Jacob), very few people can fulfill that last part.

Modifié par fongiel24, 02 septembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Ieldra]

Oh...I didn't realize we've hit page 200. This deserves a really nice Miranda picture, even if it's old.


Uh...those eyes... ...eh...what did I say?

[jtav]

She is astonishingly beautiful in that shot. She's also a complex character (and she is *grumbles*). What more could you ask for?



Several weeks ago, I mentioned I was doing a Renegade MaleShep playthrough who romanced Miranda because she made for a good status symbol. I'm starting to have doubts about that because part of me thinks she should be able to see through his facade and he's a creep who enjoys having the power in a relationship. So who would you pick as a LI if all Shepard cared about was status and the ability to dominate his partner? Miranda makes for a good trophy but she's also his equal.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
She is astonishingly beautiful in that shot. She's also a complex character (and she is *grumbles*). What more could you ask for?

I don't ask for more. Only more Miranda. In ME3.

Several weeks ago, I mentioned I was doing a Renegade MaleShep playthrough who romanced Miranda because she made for a good status symbol. I'm starting to have doubts about that because part of me thinks she should be able to see through his facade and he's a creep who enjoys having the power in a relationship. So who would you pick as a LI if all Shepard cared about was status and the ability to dominate his partner? Miranda makes for a good trophy but she's also his equal.

That's a hard question.
(1) Tali: could be dominated, but makes a bad status symbol outside of quarian society.
(2) Jack: knows how to be careful of people. Even less of a status symbol.
(3) Samara: very good status symbol. But she's seen too much to be fooled, and her code makes her almost impossible to manipulate.
(4) Ashley: her family has a bad reputation in the military. Dismissed.
(5) Liara. As a status symbol only middling, but could be manipulated. Also has significantly more respect in ME2. Probably the best compromise.