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[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Does anyone else think Miranda looks a bit anxious when the elevator first opens, almost as if she's attempting to compose herself? I like that. The coyness should have been a bit of a mask. She's pretending this is a normal sexual encounter because she's trying to take what comfort she can before she (probably) dies in a few hours. The sex scene itself is growing on me.

I don't think the Bioware artists and animators intended such a deep meaning for Miranda's initial facial expression in this scene, but after watching it again, I agree with this. Intentional or not though, Miranda does look slightly anxious. I find it strangely attractive, seeing her suddenly vulnerable, with her guard momentarily let down. If only Shepard could show the same emotional complexity.

Strangely attractive. That's one way to put it. I'd have said my heart goes out to her at that moment. I agree Bioware likely didn't intend it. Maybe Yvonne Strahovksi has something to do with the way it comes across.

[fongiel24]

It's "strangely" attractive in Miranda's case because vulnerability isn't one of her usual traits. I wonder if that scene was motion capped. Strahovski does have a very expressive face. She's an easy actress to fall in love with for that reason.

[Ieldra]

This page needs....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 septembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[jtav]

I agree that the anxiety was likely unintended by the writers. But it's still very attractive and throws a much more flattering light on the scene. And it doesn't really matter what the writers intended in any case. "The author is dead." Now, if you'll excuse me, I've been seized by the urge to explore this a little further in story form.

[jtav]

Also, I think I may have found a reason to actually like the romance instead of just tolerate it. Now, if we could just get Shepard to show some emotional vulnerability. He really is the weak link here.

[snfonseka]

jtav wrote...

Also, I think I may have found a reason to actually like the romance instead of just tolerate it. Now, if we could just get Shepard to show some emotional vulnerability. He really is the weak link here.

To show an emotional vulnerability there should be a reason, for that vulnerability. I can't see any...

Modifié par snfonseka, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[fongiel24]

snfonseka wrote...

jtav wrote...

Also, I think I may have found a reason to actually like the romance instead of just tolerate it. Now, if we could just get Shepard to show some emotional vulnerability. He really is the weak link here.

To show an emotional vulnerability there should be a reason, for that vulnerability. I can't see any...

Um... Shepard's a person, not a robot so he will definitely have some emotional vulnerabilities. As for the why, Miranda has been revealing aspects about herself, including doubts and insecurities that she's likely never shared with anyone else before, for half the game. If he cares about her as a person at all, the sex scene should mean more to him than just a romp in the engine room. Would it really kill him to show that?

[LuxDragon]

That's why he opened up with the tummy hug! And the head on the shoulder.

[snfonseka]

fongiel24 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

jtav wrote...

Also, I think I may have found a reason to actually like the romance instead of just tolerate it. Now, if we could just get Shepard to show some emotional vulnerability. He really is the weak link here.

To show an emotional vulnerability there should be a reason, for that vulnerability. I can't see any...

Um... Shepard's a person, not a robot so he will definitely have some emotional vulnerabilities. As for the why, Miranda has been revealing aspects about herself, including doubts and insecurities that she's likely never shared with anyone else before, for half the game. If he cares about her as a person at all, the sex scene should mean more to him than just a romp in the engine room. Would it really kill him to show that?

We are not taking about emotions, we are taking about emotional vulnerabilities (EV). Aren't we? I am no psychiatric, but according to my understanding to have a EV you should have a problem/ source. In Miris case, it is her father. I can't see any for Shepard within the given ME storyline.

[fongiel24]

snfonseka wrote...

We are not taking about emotions, we are taking about emotional vulnerabilities (EV). Aren't we? I am no psychiatric, but according to my understanding to have a EV you should have a problem/ source. In Miris case, it is her father. I can't see any for Shepard within the given ME storyline.

Love and friendship are examples of emotional vulnerability because you're putting yourself at the mercy of the other person. The moment you start genuinely caring about someone, platonically or romantically, you've given them a weapon they can tear your heart out with. That doesn't mean they necessarily will do that to you, but you will always be vulnerable to their betraying you later (like Miranda with Niket).

Even if we're talking about actual emotional problems and not just the act of making yourself vulnerable, every Shepard other than a Spacer/War Hero has a built-in emotional vulnerability. Colonist - lost entire family to slavers. Earthborn - orphan who spent formative years living in abject poverty, surrounded by crime and violence. Sole Survivor - lost entire unit in a horrific attack that later turned out to be instigated by the very people s/he's now working for. Ruthless - responsible for sending almost the entirety of his/her unit to their deaths.

During the course of ME1, even Spacer/War Hero Shepard had to sacrifice a teammate on Virmire. Unless Shepard is a sociopath or seriously disliked Kaidan/Ashley, that event alone should have created emotional trauma as it was Shepard's decision that directly led to that character's death. Even if we exclude ME1, even Spacer/War Hero Shepard has to have some emotional vulnerabilities.

Vulnerabilities don't have to be crippling but everyone has weaknesses, insecurities, and doubts that affect them. Anybody who claims they have absolutely no regrets, doubts, or insecurities is either lying or was literally born yesterday.

[Jebel Krong]

LuxDragon wrote...

That's why he opened up with the tummy hug! And the head on the shoulder.

speaking of which:

[Jebel Krong]

and the following is, quite frankly, a 'pov' shot i don't remember from the sequence, but i thought was pretty funny when i was sorting through:

[Ieldra]

This fanfic writing gives me a number of ideas for stories.... I just stumbled upon this one:



Miranda has (had?) at least one elder sister. If she wasn't killed but institutionalized (as both jtav and I assume), she might have been through several years of hell, maybe even with experiments performed on her. Should she somehow escape, it's possible there's a mirror copy of Miranda running around with a personality more along the line of Jack's. Miranda and she might get into conflict, or may be mistaken for one another.

(I'm working with this as a backstory element, but probably won't explore it in depth - which is why I mention it here)



Also, I have this idea that Miranda and Aria have met before...

[Prudii Aden]

@fongiel - Even Spacer / War Hero Shepard has vulnerabilities. To use a modern analogy - he's a service brat / expatriate kid. Never really had a place to call home, never really had a chance to build any long lasting friendships because he's going to change ships about every 6 months or a year. The only source of stability for him is his family - except his Dad has vanished or is dead, Mum is an officer in the Alliance, as well as potentially being an only child.

Again, War Hero - look at it this way. He's likely to be the sole survivor of whatever unit was cobbled together to stop the Blitz. Imagine being the sole Spartan survivor of Thermopylae. You're victorious, but everyone you fought with is dead, and you're being hailed as a hero by your own people. Throw Spacer and War Hero together, and you likely end up with someone who doesn't make friends easily, who's seen his friends killed or die in action beside him.

[Elyvern]

It's not that Shepard doesn't have emotional vulnerabilities. In fact, the content of both games have more than enough trauma for Shepard to become mentally unstable if you want to put it that way:

1. trauma from general background (colonist/spacer/earth-born)
2. trauma from service history (akuze/torfan/skillian blitz)
3. choosing between Ash/Kaidan in Virmire, Bowman/Balak in BDtK
4. possibly sending a LI (Ash/Kaidan) to his/her death
5. dying and coming back not entirely 100% organic
6. coming back to find friends/squadmates gone, all work undone
7. possibly coming back to find that LI has changed drastically
8. everyone comes to Shepard with their problems, Shep has no one to approach
9. Post-suicide - death of some squadmates

For reasons of needing to appeal to a wide range of gamers, it was neccessary to downplay or ignore all the above so in-game Shepard does feel more than a tad robotic. But if you wanted, you could literally mix and match the above conditions and write a tragic Shepard.

[Jebel Krong]

it's not even the need to appeal that's the problem: there's just too much choice and variation in background for any one to have any meaningful impact ingame because it would interfere with another - they'd have to make every conversation 8 times or whatever. that's why you have to infer shepard a lot more than any other character. BW seem to know this though, hence the more predefined hawke in DA2.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda has (had?) at least one elder sister. If she wasn't killed but institutionalized (as both jtav and I assume), she might have been through several years of hell, maybe even with experiments performed on her. Should she somehow escape, it's possible there's a mirror copy of Miranda running around with a personality more along the line of Jack's. Miranda and she might get into conflict, or may be mistaken for one another.
(I'm working with this as a backstory element, but probably won't explore it in depth - which is why I mention it here)

It's similar to what I'm working on, at least in the sense that there are several genetic clones of her running free out there. Not a problem when her father's genetic dynasty remains a well-kept secret, but once that blows up....

Also, I have this idea that Miranda and Aria have met before...

Considering that MIri has hold operations in Omega before (Redemption) I wouldn't be surprised if they've met before. Personally, I am wondering if it's possible that Shepard and Miranda have met before during their alliance days (ie. before Cerberus went rogue, and before Shepard was Anderson's XO). Although both of them are so memorable in their own person, neither would realistically forget the other. But as a faceless informant (like for Jacob) or two people working peripherally but on the same project, I can see that happening.

[snfonseka]

fongiel24 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

We are not taking about emotions, we are taking about emotional vulnerabilities (EV). Aren't we? I am no psychiatric, but according to my understanding to have a EV you should have a problem/ source. In Miris case, it is her father. I can't see any for Shepard within the given ME storyline.

Love and friendship are examples of emotional vulnerability because you're putting yourself at the mercy of the other person. The moment you start genuinely caring about someone, platonically or romantically, you've given them a weapon they can tear your heart out with. That doesn't mean they necessarily will do that to you, but you will always be vulnerable to their betraying you later (like Miranda with Niket).

Even if we're talking about actual emotional problems and not just the act of making yourself vulnerable, every Shepard other than a Spacer/War Hero has a built-in emotional vulnerability. Colonist - lost entire family to slavers. Earthborn - orphan who spent formative years living in abject poverty, surrounded by crime and violence. Sole Survivor - lost entire unit in a horrific attack that later turned out to be instigated by the very people s/he's now working for. Ruthless - responsible for sending almost the entirety of his/her unit to their deaths.

During the course of ME1, even Spacer/War Hero Shepard had to sacrifice a teammate on Virmire. Unless Shepard is a sociopath or seriously disliked Kaidan/Ashley, that event alone should have created emotional trauma as it was Shepard's decision that directly led to that character's death. Even if we exclude ME1, even Spacer/War Hero Shepard has to have some emotional vulnerabilities.

Vulnerabilities don't have to be crippling but everyone has weaknesses, insecurities, and doubts that affect them. Anybody who claims they have absolutely no regrets, doubts, or insecurities is either lying or was literally born yesterday.

I am not refering into this. This may be consider as a EV, but I didn't try to / want to explain about this. Ofcause, if you love someone there is a chance of getting burned.

These may be Sheps past vulnerabilities, but if Shep actually "got over them" and if those decisions are not a burden to him (now) then is there a vulnerability in that? Let's take the "falling in love" example that you have mentioned.

If Sheps previous girlfriend broke his heart but if Shep have forgotten about her now and Shep have no issue in starting a new relationship with a new girl, is there an EV in Shep because of the previous incident?

If Sheps previous girlfriend broke his heart and if Shep are having very hard time forgeting about her and if that previous experience, discourage Shep to start a new relashionship then there is an EV in Sheps side.

So basicaly what I think is that EV is totaly depend on personality.

[snfonseka]

Prudii Aden wrote...

@fongiel - Even Spacer / War Hero Shepard has vulnerabilities. To use a modern analogy - he's a service brat / expatriate kid. Never really had a place to call home, never really had a chance to build any long lasting friendships because he's going to change ships about every 6 months or a year. The only source of stability for him is his family - except his Dad has vanished or is dead, Mum is an officer in the Alliance, as well as potentially being an only child.
Again, War Hero - look at it this way. He's likely to be the sole survivor of whatever unit was cobbled together to stop the Blitz. Imagine being the sole Spartan survivor of Thermopylae. You're victorious, but everyone you fought with is dead, and you're being hailed as a hero by your own people. Throw Spacer and War Hero together, and you likely end up with someone who doesn't make friends easily, who's seen his friends killed or die in action beside him.

Wrong explanation. In "war hero" description, there is nothing like this given. It said "You risked your own life to save your fellow soldiers and defeat the enemy despite the impossible odds. "

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Considering that MIri has hold operations in Omega before (Redemption) I wouldn't be surprised if they've met before. Personally, I am wondering if it's possible that Shepard and Miranda have met before during their alliance days (ie. before Cerberus went rogue, and before Shepard was Anderson's XO). Although both of them are so memorable in their own person, neither would realistically forget the other. But as a faceless informant (like for Jacob) or two people working peripherally but on the same project, I can see that happening.

Yep. I'm currently working on something similar. What I'm planning is that they meet face-to-face only once, and that with both undercover and in circumstances not exactly conducive to later recognition. I decided to take Shepard's "infiltrator" class a bit closer to the classic operative. 

[snfonseka]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda has (had?) at least one elder sister. If she wasn't killed but institutionalized (as both jtav and I assume), she might have been through several years of hell, maybe even with experiments performed on her. Should she somehow escape, it's possible there's a mirror copy of Miranda running around with a personality more along the line of Jack's. Miranda and she might get into conflict, or may be mistaken for one another.
(I'm working with this as a backstory element, but probably won't explore it in depth - which is why I mention it here)

Just to get a clarification.... is this mentioned in game dialogs? because I really can't remember anything regarding this .....

[jtav]

By "emotional vulnerability" I'm referring to those ordinary, human emotions like doubt and fear. Miranda is permitted to be terrified of losing Shepard, but Shepard is not permitted to reciprocate. Even in the hug scene, he doesn't seem concerned himself that they could all die tomorrow. Yes, yes I know he's supposed to be an escapist character and we don't want players forced to have a nervous breakdown, but it also means that you more or less have to go OOC to write him as even a halfway convincing human being who actually cares about her. I believe she cares deeply about him in the romance, but I really have to work at it to make Shepard anything other than a lech who really is just trying to get her into bed.

Modifié par jtav, 06 septembre 2010 - 10:57 .

[Ieldra]

snfonseka wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda has (had?) at least one elder sister. If she wasn't killed but institutionalized (as both jtav and I assume), she might have been through several years of hell, maybe even with experiments performed on her. Should she somehow escape, it's possible there's a mirror copy of Miranda running around with a personality more along the line of Jack's. Miranda and she might get into conflict, or may be mistaken for one another.
(I'm working with this as a backstory element, but probably won't explore it in depth - which is why I mention it here)

Just to get a clarification.... is this mentioned in game dialogs? because I really can't remember anything regarding this .....

Miranda mentions she was "not he first one [her father] made, only the first one he kept." Which is why speculation abounds about what happened with those he didn't keep. There's not a single piece of in-game info about this, and the easiest assumption is that he had them killed. But of course, that's boring because it leaves no room for spinning stories. And given Mr "Lawson" and his dynastic ambitions, I can imagine a number of plausible  scenarios where at least one of them has survived.

[Caihn]

jtav wrote...
 I believe she cares deeply about him in the romance, but I really have to work at it to make Shepard anything other than a lech who really is just trying to get her into bed.

That's why I prefer the Praragon romance, during the last conversation he says he cares about her. Then I choose the "don't know, don't care" line because I want to hear him saying that he has feelings for her.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
By "emotional vulnerability" I'm referring to those ordinary, human emotions like doubt and fear. Miranda is permitted to be terrified of losing Shepard, but Shepard is not permitted to reciprocate. Even in the hug scene, he doesn't seem concerned himself that they could all die tomorrow. Yes, yes I know he's supposed to be an escapist character and we don't want players forced to have a nervous breakdown, but it also means that you more or less have to go OOC to write him as even a halfway convincing human being who actually cares about her. I believe she cares deeply about him in the romance, but I really have to work at it to make Shepard anything other than a lech who really is just trying to get her into bed.

The problem is that once you voice a protagonist, you can't do it right. Either you leave him (or her) a somewhat blank slate with very low-key, if any, emotions shown, or there will inevitably be scenes where the emotional content goes so completely against the way you want to play your character that it breaks the character. I've had this problem in several games because I tend to be non-mainstream in the way I envision my characters. It's easier to add your own imagined emotions to a character shown almost emotionless in-game than to dismiss those you're shown in the game and substitute different ones.

As for the "I care about you" scene: Shepard tells Miranda, but he doesn't show her. You don't hear in his voice that he cares. Not convincing. As strange as it sounds, his smile and her "Stop smiling, damn it" create a stronger connection than that, even though it's not about emotional vulnerability.