15168 réponses à ce sujet

[snfonseka]

jtav wrote...

By "emotional vulnerability" I'm referring to those ordinary, human emotions like doubt and fear. Miranda is permitted to be terrified of losing Shepard, but Shepard is not permitted to reciprocate. Even in the hug scene, he doesn't seem concerned himself that they could all die tomorrow. Yes, yes I know he's supposed to be an escapist character and we don't want players forced to have a nervous breakdown, but it also means that you more or less have to go OOC to write him as even a halfway convincing human being who actually cares about her. I believe she cares deeply about him in the romance, but I really have to work at it to make Shepard anything other than a lech who really is just trying to get her into bed.

It's because the commitment for their relationship is different from each other. I think he's following "the power in all relationships lies with whoever cares less" path. May be because of his high risky job, we realy can't hope for a Shepard, who is living the life in fear of loosing his LI.

[snfonseka]

Ieldra2 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda has (had?) at least one elder sister. If she wasn't killed but institutionalized (as both jtav and I assume), she might have been through several years of hell, maybe even with experiments performed on her. Should she somehow escape, it's possible there's a mirror copy of Miranda running around with a personality more along the line of Jack's. Miranda and she might get into conflict, or may be mistaken for one another.
(I'm working with this as a backstory element, but probably won't explore it in depth - which is why I mention it here)

Just to get a clarification.... is this mentioned in game dialogs? because I really can't remember anything regarding this .....

Miranda mentions she was "not he first one [her father] made, only the first one he kept." Which is why speculation abounds about what happened with those he didn't keep. There's not a single piece of in-game info about this, and the easiest assumption is that he had them killed. But of course, that's boring because it leaves no room for spinning stories. And given Mr "Lawson" and his dynastic ambitions, I can imagine a number of plausible  scenarios where at least one of them has survived.

Now I remember... Thanks.

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for the "I care about you" scene: Shepard tells Miranda, but he doesn't show her. You don't hear in his voice that he cares. Not convincing.

I disagree. I think he's quite convincing when he says this. I think it's one of his best line.

Modifié par Yannkee, 06 septembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[Breakdown Boy]

You guys are reading too much into one scene. As I recall, Shep is on his way to the elevator (maybe internally going through the ramifications of the suicide mission) when Miranda bumps into him and uses her sultry charmes to suggest they meet in the engine room. It was a sexy encounter, and yes I guess Miri had doubts but I doubt Shep had any time to go into his fears, so rather then loose the moment he went with Miranda's mood, which was ("I cleared the engine room...") sultry and litehearted, not 'oh my god, were gonna die, oh Shepard I love you so..."



Yes, Shep has insecurities, but most likely doesn't show it to anybody, nevermind his own crew just before a suicide mission. Everybody looks to him for hope, for salvation almost, so if he has any emotional problems it would be connecting with people on a deep and meaningfull level.



I mean who knows who Shepard really is?

[jtav]

Ieldra, that's precisely the reason I hate voiced protagonists in RPGs, at least ones for whom I'm supposed to still fill and substantial blanks. Hearing the character's voice makes me want to treat them the same as any other character rather than as a blank slate. And Shepard is about as interesting as watching paint dry if you treat him that way. it's especially difficult for me here, because I'm not projecting myself into the romance through Shepard.

[Caihn]

Mark Meer is certainly one of the worst voice actor in Mass Effect but I prefer to have a voiced player character. That's why I didn't enjoy DAO as much as ME2.

[jtav]

Breakdown Boy, the problem is that, if the scene is a straightforward lighthearted sexual encounter, then both of them look like a pair of sociopaths. The crew has just been kidnapped. Both of them know perfectly well that this is in all likelihood their last day alive. I'm going to take anything I can get to turn what looks like a fairly standard roll in the hay into something with a little emotional depth.

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...
Mark Meer is certainly one of the worst voice actor in Mass Effect but I prefer to have a voiced player character. That's why I didn't enjoy DAO as much as ME2.

Considering that he has the thankless task of having to portray a protagonist defined by nothing but his "coolness", he's not doing such a bad job.

@jtav:
I agree completely. How I miss the ME1 love scenes.... 

[jtav]

Meer's gotten better. I still prefer Hale. I miss the ME love scenes too. They weren't angstfests, but the specter of Ilos and Saren was definitely present. If the love scenes in ME2 are played straight, the characters become thoughtless or worse. But if Miranda is putting on an act, then the scene becomes more interesting.

[fongiel24]

snfonseka wrote...

jtav wrote...

By "emotional vulnerability" I'm referring to those ordinary, human emotions like doubt and fear. Miranda is permitted to be terrified of losing Shepard, but Shepard is not permitted to reciprocate. Even in the hug scene, he doesn't seem concerned himself that they could all die tomorrow. Yes, yes I know he's supposed to be an escapist character and we don't want players forced to have a nervous breakdown, but it also means that you more or less have to go OOC to write him as even a halfway convincing human being who actually cares about her. I believe she cares deeply about him in the romance, but I really have to work at it to make Shepard anything other than a lech who really is just trying to get her into bed.

It's because the commitment for their relationship is different from each other. I think he's following "the power in all relationships lies with whoever cares less" path. May be because of his high risky job, we realy can't hope for a Shepard, who is living the life in fear of loosing his LI.

The Shepard you describe is borderline sociopathic. If your primary concern in a romantic relationship is "who holds the power?", there's something very wrong with how you're wired. Romantic relationships are about trust and vulnerability, not figuring out how to gain leverage over your partner.

If Shepard is so concerned that the fear of losing his LI will cripple him, he should have turned Miranda down long before the encounter in the elevator. Not allowing himself to care about her yet going through the romance anyways means he's just using her for sex. IMO, that kind of Shepard is nothing but a liar, a sleaze, and a coward.

[Caihn]

Crazy Mass Effect 2 Stats and What They're Used For

 

On the PC for example, people did Miranda's loyalty mission quite a bit, which is where she is trying to connect with her sister and it's more of a touchy-feely plot. Not a lot of Xbox 360 players did that one.

Not a surprise. <_<

But now I'm very anxious for ME3, I hope Bioware won't jump to conclusions.

Miri is a great character, and her loyalty mission is one of the best ! These stupid console gamers don't know what they miss.

Modifié par Yannkee, 06 septembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[jtav]

I'm more worried about the quote that implies there will be even less dialogue.



Miranda's LM is in my top three. Mordin's is my favorite. I hated Grunt's. I consider myself primarily a console gamer, though I play most of my western-style RPGs on a computer.

[AventuroLegendary]

Howdy Miri fans.

[Caihn]

jtav wrote...

I'm more worried about the quote that implies there will be even less dialogue.

this ?

BioWare found that only 15% of conversations were skipped in Mass Effect 2, with the rate higher in non-critical moments like in the hub worlds and much lower later in the game at the climax. "If we found that 80% or 90% of the lines were being skipped, we would have to reevaluate the work that we were putting into the digital acting."

I don't think it implies less dialogue.

[AventuroLegendary]

And I'm out.

[fongiel24]

It was interesting that the soldier class was used so much. It's a useful class but I don't find it particularly powerful (I think adepts with the right squadmates are the best choice at higher difficulties). I still play it on all my canon playthroughs though. For me, it's a roleplay decision - Shepard seems more human if he's a more "normal" class and I get more of that feeling that Shepard is just a regular guy doing exceptional things.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

I'm more worried about the quote that implies there will be even less dialogue.

Miranda's LM is in my top three. Mordin's is my favorite. I hated Grunt's. I consider myself primarily a console gamer, though I play most of my western-style RPGs on a computer.

Miranda's is my favourite, but only because she's my favourite character. Mordin's was probably one of the best in terms of fleshing out the character. Before his LM, Mordin seems so sure of himself and confident that the modified genophage was the right decision. His LM's soulsearching element was just amazing. The way he seems to be arguing with himself the entire way up to his assistant's lab felt like real internal conflict.

My least favourite (by a mile) was Samara's. Samara has a cool character concept, and some of her lines aren't bad, but after that the character completely falls apart for me. I've already gone into detail about how much I hate her outfit and why, and her willingness to drop her mission to follow Shepard seems completely contrived. Her loyalty mission follows this pattern. Her statement about Shepard being an "artist on the battlefield" was ridiculous and just a flimsy excuse to justify sending Shepard instead of someone else. Shepard's interaction with Morinth was cringeworthy and clumsy (You like Forta, I like Forta, you like Expel 10, I like Expel 10, you like power, I like power - let's f*ck!). Ugh... I can't go on about Samara's LM anymore.

[Caihn]

Do you think people can fully understand a character like Miranda if they don't do her loyalty mission ?

[jtav]

I think you can get the basics, but not doing any character's LM locks you out of a substantial portion of their dialogue, and in many cases, an important aspect of their character. I would have thought that Miranda's would have been more popular, if only because it's a necessary precondition to her romance. I had assumed she was the most popular among casual gamers, but it looks as if I may have been wrong.

[Caihn]

I think they miss the most interesting part of her personality.



Now I understand why so much people only see Miranda as the cold woman we met on the Lazarus station.

[jtav]

I find the cold woman on Lazarus Station the most interesting, but I have been known to break down crying during her mission as well. Poor, unhappy Miranda. Even your romance is growing on me.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm more worried about the quote that implies there will be even less dialogue.

There wasn't any such quote. They said about 15% of the dialogue was skipped, and from the context it was clear that this was considered low and they wouldn't need to reevaluate the work they put into the dialogue scenes. We might not get more in ME3, but if this is any indication, we certainly won't get less.

Another positive point: 50% of the players imported an ME1 save, which is explicitly stated as being more than they expected. That may mean we'll get better continuity.

[Jebel Krong]

Yannkee wrote...

Crazy Mass Effect 2 Stats and What They're Used For

 

On the PC for example, people did Miranda's loyalty mission quite a bit, which is where she is trying to connect with her sister and it's more of a touchy-feely plot. Not a lot of Xbox 360 players did that one.

Not a surprise. <_<

But now I'm very anxious for ME3, I hope Bioware won't jump to conclusions.

Miri is a great character, and her loyalty mission is one of the best ! These stupid console gamers don't know what they miss.

interesting data. i doubt it will significantly impact me3, but future games may take notice of things like having one character/class if the extra effort is wasted/fragments focus etc.

[Jebel Krong]

fongiel24 wrote...

It was interesting that the soldier class was used so much. It's a useful class but I don't find it particularly powerful (I think adepts with the right squadmates are the best choice at higher difficulties). I still play it on all my canon playthroughs though. For me, it's a roleplay decision - Shepard seems more human if he's a more "normal" class and I get more of that feeling that Shepard is just a regular guy doing exceptional things.

i used soldier in me1 as it was the best by far, but in #2 i much prefer the infiltrator, i agree with the human/normal class - sometimes having a more grounded shepard amidst the masses of biotic badasses just elevates the character more.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I would have thought that Miranda's would have been more popular, if only because it's a necessary precondition to her romance. I had assumed she was the most popular among casual gamers, but it looks as if I may have been wrong.

And again, you may not. I get the impression that the percentage of PC players who like the roleplaying elements is higher than among the xbox players. Which means that there is a preference for the more combat-oriented missions among the xbox gamers. This may cancel out the influence of the group of casual gamers with Miranda as a preferred LI among the xbox gamers.

Statistics can get complicated. If you have multiple influence factors, you'll need something like a multiple regression analysis to find if any one is dominant, which one is, or if they all cancel each other out. I'm sure Bioware does that.

Edit:
Regarding the classes: I find it sad that my favorite class (Engineer) is the least favorite in general and the only class I never play the most popular. Why are people so attracted to boring Soldiers?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 septembre 2010 - 08:53 .