15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Bottomline, I agree with your preference for less details, but all information so far doesn't make Miranda's infertility an insurmountable problem. What it does for me primarily is to create another level of pathos for her character. Outwardly, she's equipped with a body that is perfect for child-bearing. That and the fact that and she is genetically superior but unable to pass on her genes is a terrible waste. But ultimately, it drives home the tyrannical sense of ownership her father has over her. Even her own body isn't hers to control.

IMO one has nothing to do with the other. Men trying to control women's fertility is a theme older than dirt. And if a woman is infertile, ultimately no one is on control because you can't control what isn't there in the first place. I also don't agree it necessarily creates another level of empathy - I find it plausible that Miranda might not care. I'd rather she did, but given how she was made, I'd find it understandable if she didn't want any children. And then, what does it matter?

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Grr....the PC download file for LotSB is defective..... everyone apparently has the same issue.

@jtav:
Ah....I see. Given what Bioware just did to her, I don't find the idea as awkward anymore. But I must say every time Bioware pulls a stunt like this, it pushes me another step in the direction of a Cerberus ending.

@fongiel24:
It's very plausible that eezo is to blame, given the damage it can do to human fetuses. Nothing being an expert in biology would help with, thought, since nobody knows the exact properties of eezo.

I'm more concerned with the procedure used to implant eezo than the eezo itself. It's been demonstrated that physical trauma like abuse, malnutrition, and too much exercise can inhibit proper sexual maturation in both sexes. If the eezo implantation process involved several sessions of invasive surgery where Miranda's adolescent body was first subjected to the shock of surgery then forced to heal itself before having to undergo surgery again, it might have been enough to throw off her development. She might appear to be a perfectly healthy human female on the outside, but things might be different on the inside.

I find it difficult to believe Miranda's father would intentionally create infertile heirs. If infertility was an unexpected side effect of the process that turned her into a biotic, this could explain why her father rejected her and started again with Oriana. The timing would work as well, since Miranda ran away during her teens - the exact period in which her father would be first able to recognize his mistake.

Ieldra2 wrote...

IMO one has nothing to do with the
other. Men trying to control women's fertility is a theme older than
dirt. And if a woman is infertile, ultimately no one is on control
because you can't control what isn't there in the first place. I also
don't agree it necessarily creates another level of empathy - I find it
plausible that Miranda might not care. I'd rather she did, but given
how she was made, I'd find it understandable if she didn't want any
children. And then, what does it matter?

Even if Miranda didn't plan to have children, I think the idea that her father's actions made it physically impossible for her to have children would make her angry. Miranda seems to have a bit of an obsession with proving her humanity - an inability to conceive would further set her apart from the rest of the human race, regardless of whether she intended to become pregnant or not.

Modifié par fongiel24, 07 septembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[jtav]

I think she might care very much that she doesn't have the option of having children, at least not without assistance. It's another choice that has been taken from her.

[HK-90210]

My heart really jumped when I read about Miranda's infertility at the Shadow Broker's base. I totally didn't see it coming. The Shepard that I romance Miranda with would want kids, eventually. But a revelation like this would be very difficult to take. In the end, though, he would stay with Miranda, becase he loves her.



But I do think that Miranda could have kids. She just can't concieve natually. In a universe that allows for bringing people back from the dead, this kind of problem seems to be a no-brainer to solve. There are plenty of ways to get around it.



But this whole thing sounds like something that Miranda's father would do, taking control of her right to reproduce. Just another reason why my canon Shepard is going to kill him.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

IMO one has nothing to do with the other. Men trying to control women's fertility is a theme older than dirt. And if a woman is infertile, ultimately no one is on control because you can't control what isn't there in the first place. I also don't agree it necessarily creates another level of empathy - I find it plausible that Miranda might not care. I'd rather she did, but given how she was made, I'd find it understandable if she didn't want any children. And then, what does it matter?

My sense of empathy would come from how that choice was taken away from her, regardless of whether she exercises the choice or not. Besides, a theme being older than dirt doesn't make moral considerations obsolete. We're more likely to gloss over it, but it doesn't make it less wrong.

Whatever it is, we're stil in the realm of speculation, and have no idea as to the real cause of Miranda's infertility. I've cancelled my initial download as per your warning and restarted it, but it's still going to take 5 hours to download all 1.5g of it.

Modifié par Elyvern, 07 septembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I think she might care very much that she doesn't have the option of having children, at least not without assistance. It's another choice that has been taken from her.

She does care in my universe. I just wanted to play devil's advocate and say it's not the only plausible scenario.

[Ieldra]

CastonFolarus wrote...
But this whole thing sounds like something that Miranda's father would do, taking control of her right to reproduce. Just another reason why my canon Shepard is going to kill him.

We're getting on shaky ground here, and maybe somewhat OT, but I don't think anyone has a right to reproduce. With limited resources I find it perfectly desirable to limit reproduction as well.

In Miranda's case, how I think of it would depend on whether it was done intentionally or not. I rather think not, because her father did want his dynasty after all. Then, it's an unfortunate accident but no one is really to blame for it. If it was done intentionally, then it's morally objectionable because it was an unnecessary and non-consensual bodily injury with permanent after-effects, or, as opposed to all her other engineered traits, not something everyone would find desirable.

[Blackbaron15]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

My heart really jumped when I read about Miranda's infertility at the Shadow Broker's base.

Thanks for the spoiler.

As soon as I clicked the link that was the first thing I saw....


Caston your a dick.

[fongiel24]

Don't bother trying to download LotSB, PC players. Until Bioware announces a fix, all we're getting is 1.5gb of nothing.



http://tehparadox.co...broken-1299424/

[Ieldra]

Calm down people, it's been posted on the previous page, so of course we're talking about it. Blame for forum software for not providing spoiler tags.

[Dave of Canada]

fongiel24 wrote...

Even if Miranda didn't plan to have children, I think the idea that her father's actions made it physically impossible for her to have children would make her angry. Miranda seems to have a bit of an obsession with proving her humanity - an inability to conceive would further set her apart from the rest of the human race, regardless of whether she intended to become pregnant or not.

She cares enough that she had it checked out by the Doctor, so maybe it was a long-term plan.

[fongiel24]

Dave of Canada wrote...

She cares enough that she had it checked out by the Doctor, so maybe it was a long-term plan.

Depending on what the problem is, her infertility could also have been picked up on a routine physical. I don't think she has to necessarily get her fertility checked out specifically.

[Sleepy Buddha]

CastonFolarus wrote...

My heart really jumped when I read about Miranda's infertility at the Shadow Broker's base. I totally didn't see it coming. The Shepard that I romance Miranda with would want kids, eventually. But a revelation like this would be very difficult to take. In the end, though, he would stay with Miranda, becase he loves her.

But I do think that Miranda could have kids. She just can't concieve natually. In a universe that allows for bringing people back from the dead, this kind of problem seems to be a no-brainer to solve. There are plenty of ways to get around it.

My feelings exactly.

Damn. I was feeling great about finally having the time to finish my Insanity run (which I just did) and then downloading and playing LotSB, when not only is the download screwy but then I read this.... I don't even know what to call it, that Bioware did to Miranda.

Still, doesn't change what my Shepard feels for her one bit. Miranda's definitely the one for my Shep.

BTW, hello to the old timers of the thread. Ieldra and jtav, good to see you're still around. Hope I can drop by more often.

[mione]

Yeah hearing about her infertility was a surprise, but weird stuff tends to happen when it comes to cloning. Especially when said clone doesn't even have a "mother" but is a manipulation of Y genes. I guess they could always adopt, what with the war coming there will be a lot of kids needing homes.

[Dave of Canada]

fongiel24 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

She cares enough that she had it checked out by the Doctor, so maybe it was a long-term plan.

Depending on what the problem is, her infertility could also have been picked up on a routine physical. I don't think she has to necessarily get her fertility checked out specifically.

To me, it felt more like she requested it.


***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***

Here's the letter if you want to read:
*obvious spoilers*

From Illium Medical Center, Prenatal Care Department
RE: TEST RESULTS, PATIENT 12-66AD-1

Miss Lawson,

As per your request for privacy, this message will be removed from our database upon confirmation of send integrity.

While we cannot firmly attribute the cause of the benign neoplasm to the irregularity in your genetic makeup, we can confirm that the progressive damage renders you unable to concieve a child.

About 12 percent of human women ages 18-54 have difficulty getting pregnant or staying pregnant according to data obtained from the Institute of Species Research (ISR). There are many support groups if you wish to discuss your condition and several options available should you wish to consider the adoption of a child.

If you require further consultation, please contact our communication officer.

Sincerely,
Dr. Banner Grenway
Department Medical Director
Illium Medical Center

***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***
***SPOILERS***

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 septembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Elyvern]

Argh! That doesn't tell us if the cause is intentionally induced or accidental damage~! *tears hair*

I think the news is finally beginning to sink in for me, and I'm verging on being irrationally sympathetic for Miri. And "progressive damage"? Dear god, what does that mean?

Although upon reading that letter again, it seems like she went to the clinic looking to check up on benign tumour growth, and not to check up on her fertility. If that's the case, the repercussions of being unable to conceive would be a by-product of that revelation, shocking as it may be.

Modifié par Elyvern, 07 septembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[Dave of Canada]

Elyvern wrote...

Although upon reading that letter again, it seems like she went to the clinic looking for an answer to the irregularity to her genetic make up (whatever the hell that is), and not to check up on her fertility.

She went to a prenatal center.

[Ieldra]

****************************************************
***following up on the LotSB spoiler posts regarding Miranda***
****************************************************

You're wrong, Dave of Canada. A "benign neoplasm" is more or less a kind of cancer that needn't immediately be removed because it doesn't metastasize and doesn't grow fast enough to cause problems. It's nothing you request. "Progressive damage" indicates it's still growing. The phrasing "renders you unable to conveive a child" might mean it's not too late to do something about it, which she may or may not want to. It may also indicate that it's a mechanical problem rather than a biochemical one. Since cancer is essentially removed from the normal human population (or did I read the Codex wrong?), this means that the re-introduced risk may be attributed to her genetic makeup.

To me it sounds like it's unintended, whether by Miranda, her father or anyone else. It's too unreliable for an engineered trait. It's also curable if detected early enough. Nothing to worry overmuch about. As usual, Bioware has given us information without closing off any particular scenario we might want to envision. I must say they're masters at that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 septembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Elyvern]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Although upon reading that letter again, it seems like she went to the clinic looking for an answer to the irregularity to her genetic make up (whatever the hell that is), and not to check up on her fertility.

She went to a prenatal center.

You caught me just as I was modifying my post, heh. Anyway, neoplasms are benign growths and ovarian/uterine cysts are a common occurence with women of child-bearing age. In the real world, detection would begin with a general practioner who will then direct the patient to a OB/GYN, which is plausible in this case.  

[fongiel24]

Grrr... too many spoilers. Almost got tempted into reading Dave's post (I know it's marked "spoiler" but you know what they say about curiosity and cats). I'm staying out of the character and storyline forums until Bioware re-releases LotSB and I finish it.

[Dave of Canada]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You're wrong, Dave of Canada.

[Miranda] I'm never wrong. [/Miranda]

*runs away*

[jtav]

My biological/medical education is severely lacking, so I'd appreciate some clarification. Miranda isn't in any serious health danger, correct? Is the neoplasm likely to have any effect beyond infertility? Can it become cancer and how likely is that?  I gather the operation to remove it isn't especially dangerous. I wonder how long she's known.

Modifié par jtav, 07 septembre 2010 - 07:58 .

[Sleepy Buddha]

Ieldra2 wrote...

****************************************************
***following up on the LotSB spoiler posts regarding Miranda***
****************************************************

You're wrong, Dave of Canada. A "benign neoplasm" is more or less a kind of cancer that needn't immediately be removed because it doesn't metastasize and doesn't grow fast enough to cause problems. It's nothing you request. "Progressive damage" indicates it's still growing. The phrasing "renders you unable to conveive a child" might mean it's not too late to do something about it, which she may or may not want to. It may also indicate that it's a mechanical problem rather than a biochemical one. Since cancer is essentially removed from the normal human population (or did I read the Codex wrong?), this means that the re-introduced risk may be attributed to her genetic makeup.

To me it sounds like it's unintended, whether by Miranda, her father or anyone else. It's too unreliable for an engineered trait. It's also curable if detected early enough. Nothing to worry overmuch about. As usual, Bioware has given us information without closing off any particular scenario we might want to envision. I must say they're masters at that.

Let's hope you're right, that the intention behind that phrasing is to leave it open and create tension without closing off any particular scenario.

I just can't help being a bit pessimistic. Thankfully you're here to keep things balanced.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

My biological/medic education is severely lacking, so I'd appreciate some clarification. Miranda isn't in any serious health danger, correct? Is the neoplasm likely to have any effect beyond infertility?

No, I believe she's fine. It's basically benign tumour growth, and it's quite common to women of a child-bearing age. Although in her case, it seems that the growth is severe enough to impair her reproductive functions. Again, the wording is vague enough to suppose that she may still have a chance at conceiving a child at the point of receiving the letter, but she will become progressively infertile as time goes on. In that case, foresight in the form of harvesting and then cryogenically freezing ova would be one solution.

What's also nicely ambiguous is the clinic's inability to link her condition to the "irregularity to her genetic makeup", of which said irregularity isn't elaborated upon at all. If we want to speculate about whether her father had a hand in that irregularity or if it was a by-product of too much genetic tinkering, this is ground zero.

Also, I'm not very happy that the only option the letter offers is adoption, as if engineering custom-made gametes isn't an alternative. But like Ieldra says, happily, this is a mechanical problem, not something to do with bio-chemistry. Which means it's also perfectly viable to have Oriana donate her own ova if Miri should want to have a child in the future.