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[Ieldra]

Thought a bit more about the implications of LotSB for Miranda and her romance. I must say it's outright amazing how much this DLC, which was, after all, centered on another character, adds to her story and her character. A few things:

Liara and the Miranda romance:
Liara acknowledges the romance in a way that makes me somewhat optimistic about ME3. I see the possibility that coming to terms with how she was made could be a part of her character development in ME3. I hope they won't make her too emotional, though, I like her rational and detached as a rule.
As an aside, I agree it's very awkward that the Redemption cast doesn't interact.

Miranda and having children:
The information on the the dossier can be interpreted in various ways.

*First, there is strong evidence that she wanted a child at some time, and that this was the main reason for her using a dating service. She went about it all a bit mechanically, as if she hadn't cared about the personality of her partners at all, only about their health. Which means she might not have cared about the sex, because if you do want sex for fun, then you do care about the personality of your partner, even though it's in different ways from how you'd do were you looking for a relationship.

*On the other side, we only get tidbits of her "online life", so to speak, and it's unclear if there really is a connection between her dating and the report on her medical condition. That connection is suggested by the way the file is put together, but not proven. It's still possible that her neoplasm was discovered at a random health check, and that her "style" of using the dating service was just that, her personal, socially awkward way of going about it. The evidence is not conclusive.

*As for the present, there's no way to say if she'd still want a child or how she feels about not being successful in conceiving one. It's quite possible she's put it off as "yesterday's foolishness", having succumbed to the stereotype that a woman isn't complete without  being able to conceive. My personal impression is that she'd still want a child, but is somewhat more detached about it compared with the almost desperate intensity coming off her through the info in the dossier.

*All in all, I don't think we're supposed to take the information in the dossier literally. It sounds too satirical for that, everything is exaggerated into the stereotypical - her not very intelligent way of going about getting a child (Why not contact a sperm bank, for instance), her online behaviour, the suggestion of adoption, psychological advice or support groups as "solution" for her problem instead of more realistic medical procedures. Really, it all sounds like Bioware's making a joke at our expense. I can't take it seriously.

Miranda and Oriana:
*The communication with Oriana is the part of the dossier I like most. You can see that Miranda really wants to act the big sister, but as expected, has her difficulties when trying to get into Oriana's mind. It's interesting how you only need to read the first handful of words of her advice to notice that it isn't really Miranda speaking. I thought "Oops, this is seriously OOC", and then, behold: the explanation.

*On the other side, I've never envisioned Miranda as *that* awkward. I think she's a consummate actress as well as a good coordinator, and you don't get there without some insight into other people's character. I can take this communication as it is, because understanding teenagers is hard for anyone, but I don't think it's any indication of how she might or might not understand other people's motivations in general. This is a special situation: Miranda cares about her sister, and Oriana's a teenager. 

Miranda's medical condition:
About her medical condition, I don't know what Bioware intended here, but it should be easily overcome with 22nd century medical technology. I'd go so far that it's canon that it can be overcome. Apart from that, see above about the satirical element.
At the same time, I would not like an ME3 epilogue where Miranda and Shepard have a child, unless the time is "eventually". They've just come together and they can look forward to a long life. There's no need to rush these things, and too much of life left unexplored for now.  

So far my unexpectedly exhaustive comments about the new insights into Miranda from LotSB.

Edit:
Are there any videos showing Liara's comments about the other LI's, both male or female?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:14 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

Ieldra, that´s exactly how I see it too.
I don´t believe those dossiers have any meaning for the further development of the characters either. I just see it as some jokes the BW chaps wanted to do and the dlc was their chance to finally put them into the game.

Also, Mirandas condition is probably not going to stop her from having children, if  she really wants to.
Just think about what other kind of things the docs in ME can pull off...

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Arijharn]

I don't know, I think accepting and dismissing parts of the Miranda dossier (that doesn't suit your view) to be somewhat idealistic to be honest. Besides, I don't think I can fault her for wanting some sort of love life, she probably views that it's impossible since she's tried with Jacob, and that obviously didn't work out well.



I would have to guess that if the liaison happened it was well before her loyalty mission, and even if it did I couldn't hold it against her, even if at that time she started to feel for maleshep (for the above mentioned workplace relations type awkwardness that she would feel... I mean, if she started to actually have feelings for this alpha male, it might compromise her duty to Cerberus etc). As an aside, even if Miranda did have casual sex or even for the purpose of having a child due to some maternal need driven by her biological clock, then I would argue (in my case at least) than perhaps when Shephard invited Kelly up to dinner, they didn't just have dinner...

[Jebel Krong]

tbh i didn't like anything in the dossiers about any of the characters - definitely the weakest link of the DLC for me.



still on another note, i present this (although i am sure it won't be to everyone's taste, either):

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
I don't know, I think accepting and dismissing parts of the Miranda dossier (that doesn't suit your view) to be somewhat idealistic to be honest. Besides, I don't think I can fault her for wanting some sort of love life, she probably views that it's impossible since she's tried with Jacob, and that obviously didn't work out well.

Don't you think the style is too satirical, to exaggerated into the stereotypical, and obviously so, to be taken *completely* seriously?

BTW, I don't dismiss that Miranda may have used a dating service (if that's what you meant) in order to conceive a child with an unknown man. I also don't hold it against her. That's not what this is about. Consider, again, the report on her medical condition. Isn't the advice on how to deal with it completely out-of-the-world as well as stereotypical? I can't believe any serious 22nd century physician would write an email like that. For that reason, I do not consider the details canon.

Only the basic facts remain unaffected by this: If it's not all a complete joke (a possibility I wouldn't dismiss at this point), Miranda has had at least one date using a dating site, for a reason that may or may not have something to do with conceiving a child, and she has a medical condition that may pose some surmountable difficulties in getting a child. That's all.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 septembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[jtav]

I'm thinking about a story I wrote a while back. Miranda wasn't romantically interested in Shepard, and referred to him as the closest thing she would ever have to a son (she didn't want children). I wonder if she might eventually come to view a Shepard she didn't romance in those terms, seeing as she did essentially recreate him/her.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

I'm thinking about a story I wrote a while back. Miranda wasn't romantically interested in Shepard, and referred to him as the closest thing she would ever have to a son (she didn't want children). I wonder if she might eventually come to view a Shepard she didn't romance in those terms, seeing as she did essentially recreate him/her.

fraternal perhaps, but maternal?  no.

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't know, I think accepting and dismissing parts of the Miranda dossier (that doesn't suit your view) to be somewhat idealistic to be honest. Besides, I don't think I can fault her for wanting some sort of love life, she probably views that it's impossible since she's tried with Jacob, and that obviously didn't work out well.

Personally, I'm accepting the information as canon, but the delivery really leaves much to be desired. I find no fault with Miranda for choosing a dating service either, but the information is vague enough that my take is the service has nothing to do with the medical checkup. If you think about it, she literally went from 2 years spent on the Lazarus Station to becoming part of Shepard's squad without any downtime in between. Shiplife also means constantly working closely with people under high stress situations with the danger of fraternising hanging over their heads. Not to mention an irregular docking schedule which absolutely rules out normal dating opportunities or a casual sex encounter at bars. A dating service in this case, would be the most efficient way if she needs to blow off steam, so to speak.

[sniper1250]

First, a small nitpick: Why does everyone keep pointing out Shepard's resurrection as a point for why there would be a solution to infertility of Miranda's variety? His/Her ressurection wasn't a standard procedure. In fact, the galaxy will probably never really believe that it happened because Cerberus isn't about to just give it out to any and all that want it. It's also absurdly expensive, even without having to do the research on how to do what you're doing while you're doing it. Most of what was used to resurrect Shepard is also heavily hinted as coming from highly illegal and very unethical research on living sentient beings(turning humans into husks and creepers for example) that wouldn't be available, or even an option for most researchers to consider let alone use.



Now that I've gotten that out of my system, has it occurred to anyone else that the reason Miranda went to the doctor and found this out was because she was contemplating settling down with Jacob? Maybe they weren't quite that serious at the time, but she might have decided it was a possibility and started to prepare for it only to be told it was impossible to have children. Then she turned and told Jacob when it was appropriate and he broke it off then and there, only to later regret it and have Miranda refuse to fully forgive him. So they still have feelings for each other, but no children was a deal breaker for Jacob and Miranda refuses to dwell on what would never have happened anyway.

That's what I feel this situation is possibly like anyway. People who've played Galaxy said that it was hinted that they got together and they never elaborate on why they then broke up besides Jacob saying Miranda needed a better man than him. It might be less a complete Dev joke and more a small insight into why things started out like they did, instead of Jacob and Miranda being in a relationship and being unromanceable unless you intentionally broke them up.



Thoughts anyone?

[jtav]

I like that theory, with modification. She doesn't seem to have opened up to him, so it's doubtful he knows about her infertility. Maybe he was very vocal about his desire to settle down once the Reaper threat was eliminated. Two kids, a dog, etc. She tells him that isn't the life for her and they break up.

[Elyvern]

sniper1250 wrote...

First, a small nitpick: Why does everyone keep pointing out Shepard's resurrection as a point for why there would be a solution to infertility of Miranda's variety? His/Her ressurection wasn't a standard procedure. In fact, the galaxy will probably never really believe that it happened because Cerberus isn't about to just give it out to any and all that want it. It's also absurdly expensive, even without having to do the research on how to do what you're doing while you're doing it. Most of what was used to resurrect Shepard is also heavily hinted as coming from highly illegal and very unethical research on living sentient beings(turning humans into husks and creepers for example) that wouldn't be available, or even an option for most researchers to consider let alone use.

Personally, I got tired of reiterating the many ways on how Miranda's infertility can be easily resolved. If you're interested for a more in-depth and credible explanation, just check my posts 1-2 pages back.

Now that I've gotten that out of my system, has it occurred to anyone else that the reason Miranda went to the doctor and found this out was because she was contemplating settling down with Jacob? Maybe they weren't quite that serious at the time, but she might have decided it was a possibility and started to prepare for it only to be told it was impossible to have children. Then she turned and told Jacob when it was appropriate and he broke it off then and there, only to later regret it and have Miranda refuse to fully forgive him. So they still have feelings for each other, but no children was a deal breaker for Jacob and Miranda refuses to dwell on what would never have happened anyway.

Thoughts anyone?

Credible in the sense that events can support your hypothesis, but I'm of the camp that Miranda's infertility problem came out of a routine medical checkup. The authority that undertakes her check up would then refer her to a specialist for further examination, hence the prenatal department investigation.

The reason why I say this is, apart from this bombshell of her engaging the use of a dating service and the medical letter, I don't see any reason why she would want to start a family at her age. Given that humans have a far longer lifespan in the ME universe and Miranda can live longer than the average human, starting a family when she has only lived 1/5th of her lifespan feels really premature. If you add other facts like how she has a high risk job as a cerberus agent,  or how she's in her peak performance years, and is totally committed to her career/duties, it makes even less sense.

This isn't to say that she wouldn't consider having children at a later point in her life, but I firmly believe that starting a family at her current age isn't in the cards at all.

I also feel that Jacob is really not the right kind of man for her, but that's another can of worms all together and one that is pre-empted in my argument by the points above.

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Ieldra]

@Elyvern:

You have my complete agreement.

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Personally, I'm accepting the information as canon, but the delivery really leaves much to be desired. I find no fault with Miranda for choosing a dating service either, but the information is vague enough that my take is the service has nothing to do with the medical checkup. If you think about it, she literally went from 2 years spent on the Lazarus Station to becoming part of Shepard's squad without any downtime in between. Shiplife also means constantly working closely with people under high stress situations with the danger of fraternising hanging over their heads. Not to mention an irregular docking schedule which absolutely rules out normal dating opportunities or a casual sex encounter at bars. A dating service in this case, would be the most efficient way if she needs to blow off steam, so to speak.

I agree with this. The grouping of the dating site transcripts and the medical report together is merely coincidence. If Miranda was really seeking to conceive, going to a random dating site is a ridiculous idea, considering that a proper sperm bank would have far more detailed information on their sperm donors. The part about Miranda checking into the health of her partners is just a result of a bit of her father's perfectionism rubbing off on her. In her earlier days her father may have done similar background checks on prospective matches (if he allowed dating) so she's gotten into the habit of doing the same.

I'm curious about the timeline of the dating site transcripts. Are they dated to the ME2 timeline?

Elyvern wrote...

sniper1250 wrote...

Now
that I've gotten that out of my system, has it occurred to anyone else
that the reason Miranda went to the doctor and found this out was
because she was contemplating settling down with Jacob? Maybe they
weren't quite that serious at the time, but she might have decided it
was a possibility and started to prepare for it only to be told it was
impossible to have children. Then she turned and told Jacob when it was
appropriate and he broke it off then and there, only to later regret it
and have Miranda refuse to fully forgive him. So they still have
feelings for each other, but no children was a deal breaker for Jacob
and Miranda refuses to dwell on what would never have happened anyway.

Thoughts anyone?

Credible
in the sense that events can support your hypothesis, but I'm of the
camp that Miranda's infertility problem came out of a routine medical
checkup. The authority that undertakes her check up would then refer
her to a specialist for further examination, hence the prenatal
department investigation.

The reason why I say this is, apart
from this bombshell of her engaging the use of a dating service and the
medical letter, I don't see any reason why she would want to start a
family at her age. Given that humans have a far longer lifespan in the
ME universe and Miranda can live longer than the average human,
starting a family when she has only lived 1/5th of her lifespan feels
really premature. If you add other facts like how she has a high risk
job as a cerberus agent,  or how she's in her peak performance years,
and is totally committed to her career/duties, it makes even less
sense.

This isn't to say that she wouldn't consider having
children at a later point in her life, but I firmly believe that
starting a family at her current age isn't in the cards at all.

I
also feel that Jacob is really not the right kind of man for her, but
that's another can of worms all together and one that is pre-empted in
my argument by the points above.

I think sniper's hypothesis is plausible. Even if Miranda wasn't planning on starting a family with Jacob until much later, I can imagine her as the type of person who always needs to plan everything ahead, far in advance. She herself may not have given much thought to having children but if her boyfriend at the time seriously wanted it (he wouldn't even have to tell her, given Miranda's ability to dig up anyone's background), she might consider checking it out, just in case they had to have the discussion later.

Normally I'd like the idea of her infertility being the reason for their breakup (they wouldn't be the first couple to have this happen), but I'm not sure I buy it in Miranda and Jacob's case. I really have no evidence for this, but from Jacob's responses I get the sense that Miranda was the one who broke it off. There's also the point that Miranda and Jacob probably never got close enough for her to reveal her infertility to him (I think someone mentioned this earlier).

[Ieldra]

Updated the Miranda Lawson FAQ: the hypothesis that Miranda's father is the Shadow Broker has been disproven by the appearance of LotSB.



Any new questions for the FAQ that need to be dealt with after LotSB?

[Elyvern]

Posting pics from my LotSB playthrough!

EDIT: I should really learn how to turn on anti-aliasing in the game. Tips would be appreciated!



Woo, she says one line!

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 septembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[jtav]

The fertility problems. What's wrong with her and what that means. The only thing is that I wouldn't be as quick as some to assume it's treatable. I don't think it is.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
The fertility problems. What's wrong with her and what that means. The only thing is that I wouldn't be as quick as some to assume it's treatable. I don't think it is.

Why don't you want it to be?

I'd take bets that it is.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 septembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[jtav]

"Want" isn't the right word. I think the intent was to present something that was incurable, which is why the doctor doesn't recommend further treatment. ME medical science is advanced, but it isn't perfect.

[jtav]

Maybe "want" is the right word after all. I'm afraid that if they dealt with it at all then it would be as a throwaway line in her epilogue where it's revealed that she miraculously managed to get pregnant. That would be worse than curing Kepral's because infertility is a real problem that real people have to deal with. A magic cure would be insulting.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
"Want" isn't the right word. I think the intent was to present something that was incurable, which is why the doctor doesn't recommend further treatment. ME medical science is advanced, but it isn't perfect.

To quote you: The intent doesn't matter. What I read is something that can plausibly be cured by the kind of medical technology in evidence. Or, if not exactly cured, then circumvented. There are a few other reasons why I think it's not an insurountable problem, and not intended to be, but that's mostly meta-reasoning.

I used the term "want" on purpose, for because when reading the dossier, I conclude that you will only find it plausible that it's not curable if you don't want it to be.

jtav wrote...
A magic cure would be insulting.

Why? Plausibly, as I have pointed out elsewhere, it should really be child's play. If it is child's play in 218x, how does that insult anyone? Though I wouldn't mind if it took some effort. I also wouldn't mind if a completely natural pregnancy proved impossible as long as her children didn't inherit that condition.
I would resent that epilogue line, too, but for different reasons: I want to influence MIranda's decision about when to have a child, or at all.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 septembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Posting pics from my LotSB playthrough!

EDIT: I should really learn how to turn on anti-aliasing in the game. Tips would be appreciated!

Do you have an nVidia card Elyvern? If so, check this out:

http://www.evga.com/...&mpage=1#160321

Just a warning - I have a fairly new card (260GTX) and my game slows down at certain points at 4x AA. It helps if you close down other graphically demanding applications, but pushing it past 4x could make your game unplayable.

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
"Want" isn't the
right word. I think the intent was to present something that was
incurable, which is why the doctor doesn't recommend further treatment.
ME medical science is advanced, but it isn't perfect.

To
quote you: The intent doesn't matter. What I read is something that can
plausibly be cured by the kind of medical technology in evidence. Or,
if not exactly cured, then circumvented. There are a few other reasons
why I think it's not an insurountable problem, and not intended to be,
but that's mostly meta-reasoning.

I used the term "want" on
purpose, for because when reading the dossier, I conclude that you will
only find it plausible that it's not curable if you don't want it to
be.

jtav wrote...
A magic cure would be insulting.

Why?
Plausibly, as I have pointed out elsewhere, it should really be child's
play. Though I wouldn't mind if it took some effort. I also wouldn't
mind if a completely natural pregnancy proved impossible. And I would
resent that epilogue line, too, but for different reasons: I want to
influence MIranda's decision about when to have a child, or at all.

I'm with jtav on this one in that I want Miranda's infertility to be incurable. I realize that the way Bioware wrote it is clumsy in that it seems to be such an easily curable problem, but for story's sake I like the idea and the possibilities it presents, story-wise.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

Maybe "want" is the right word after all. I'm afraid that if they dealt with it at all then it would be as a throwaway line in her epilogue where it's revealed that she miraculously managed to get pregnant. That would be worse than curing Kepral's because infertility is a real problem that real people have to deal with. A magic cure would be insulting.

And death isn't a real problem? But you accepted that Shepard was ressurrected, didn't you? I'm sorry, but saying "a magic cure would be insulting" seems to suggest that you're bent on making an emotional judgement as to why something isn't possible, and ignoring the outright possibility of a cure within the structure of the mass effect universe. If you're so concerned about this, you could create a new disease/malady in your fictional work. Certain problems may be a non-issue, but there is always the possibility of new obstacles if you use your imagination.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
I'm with jtav on this one in that I want Miranda's infertility to be incurable. I realize that the way Bioware wrote it is clumsy in that it seems to be such an easily curable problem, but for story's sake I like the idea and the possibilities it presents, story-wise.

You don't want Miranda to have any children? Why? Or do you only not want her to get naturally pregnant? Or should she, in your opinion, only be able to have offspring by using her father's methods? I agree the latter would make an interesting story hook, but I'm adamantly against it - it would completely ruin the epilogue I envision. Not that it would necessarily involve any children either, not in the short term, anyway.

And, for meta-reasons, I'd take a bet it's not incurable.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 septembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[Caihn]

I wish Miranda's infertility will be cured, but if it won't, I'm sure she'll find an another way to have a baby.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Posting pics from my LotSB playthrough!

EDIT: I should really learn how to turn on anti-aliasing in the game. Tips would be appreciated!

Do you have an nVidia card Elyvern? If so, check this out:

http://www.evga.com/...&mpage=1#160321

Just a warning - I have a fairly new card (260GTX) and my game slows down at certain points at 4x AA. It helps if you close down other graphically demanding applications, but pushing it past 4x could make your game unplayable.

Nah, I'm using a ATI Radeon HD4800, I think I'd have to edit the colaese.ini file or something. I read somewhere it's tricky to turn on anti-aliasing for Unreal3d games.

Modifié par Elyvern, 09 septembre 2010 - 08:30 .