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[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Elyvern:
I really like this. With a few paragraphs, you bring the Reaper war and its aftermath to life in a way Bioware will probably never manage. Your Miranda and Shepard are completely lifelike and convincing. I only find it hard to imagine Miranda content with the kind of life you describe. "Let's go far away...." in one of my imagined endings, I have my Shepard and Miranda say something similar as well, but the result is very different.

Don't worry. It's Shepard's pipe-dream and funnily enough a choice that he didn't have much control over, even though the first chapter doesn't tell you that. You'll learn more in the later part of the story. I firmly believe they are too young to "ride off into the sunset" myself, but there is such a thing as emotional and psychological weariness, which is part of what this fic is trying to portray. 

Edit:
One thing: I don't think "megalithic" is a suitable term for describing the Citadel. And your metaphor for the silence is perhaps a bit too disturbing.

I'll look into replacing the word. As for the metaphor, I kind of meant it to have that effect. At this point in time, both of them are chokeful of secrets and painful experiences they can't tell each other. But this remains an unedited draft. Thanks for the feedback.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Another excerpt, except this is right at the start of the fic. Just finished it, unedited of course. Apologies for the spam, this is the last one before I piece everything up together into a proper chapter.  

It looks pretty good so far. Your description of New Canton is excellent and I got a pretty good sense of the kind of life Shepard is trying to transition into. The dialogue between Shepard and Miranda sounds spot on, as well. I realize this is an unedited draft, but the one big thing I want to point out is that sometimes you have problems with your verb tense agreement.

Yes, absolutely. I have a bad habit of self-medicating when I write. That probably contributes as well. Off to bed for me, hopefully, tomorrow I'll see the glaring faults and revise it. Thanks for the feedback!

[sniper1250]

I have a question, why do so many people think that Miranda desperately wants kids? Is it all a personal interpretation that many of you share or was there some previous characterization discussion that concluded this? I haven't seen any evidence in game that she leans one way or the other on this issue beyond the LotSB dossier, and that has no context. She may have gone to that clinic to pickup info for Cerberus and they just needed a cover condition that fit the department the operative was hiding in that also allowed for records of her visit to be destroyed legally. She also could have possibly caused the condition in herself as a more permanent form of birth control until she deemed it was time to fix it because she was going to be on a distant space station with no idea how long she would have to stay there, only that she might not be able to leave until it's done. Even the birth controls in the ME universe have time-limits on them after all.
I'm kinda leaning more towards the idea that she doesn't want kids because it would be the greatest thing she could do to spite her father and his vision of a dynasty. I still haven't ruled out my theory that her father wanted to make sure that his daughters didn't escape and have kids with some random guy he didn't select. I think someone was saying that they thought Miranda's father wanted Miranda and her sisters to eventually breed into the population, but I disagree. He wants a dynasty for himself and his family line, not to improve humanity with painstakingly selected genes. It would make more sense that he wants his perfected genes to stay in his family and ignore the plight of the common man and his regular old "natural" genepool.
The same could be said of Lazarus technology that many are referencing as a possible source for a cure for sterility. I was under the impression that Wilson betrayed everyone and tried to kill them all off so he could sell the resurrection tech to the highest bidder/start his own resurrection clinic/show everyone how smart he was for making resurrection possible. Cerberus destroyed the station soon after Shepard got off of it too, like they never intended to try to resurrect anyone else with it, possibly because so few people would be able to pay the enormous cost that comes with resurrection. (Think D&D and the two thousand gold coins worth of diamond dust needed to resurrect someone, it's just not something that the average populace and poorer merchants/nobles can afford to pay offhand.) Cerberus might pass off some of the tech to it's satilite companies to try to get revenue from it, but it would have to be split up and gradually introduced into the market, the data probably wouldn't all be in one place. That's assuming that the tech doesn't violate any laws that would raise questions as to how it was initially researched.

[Nightwriter]

They think she wants kids because she apparently had a fertility test, and because they find it suspicious she's also trying to meet men on the sole prerequisite of excellent medical records.

[fongiel24]

I don't think Wilson was planning to go freelance. There's info in Legion's LotSB dossier that confirms that he was working for the Shadow Broker. As for the destruction of the Lazarus facility, I doubt Cerberus would just throw away 4 billion credits worth of research. More likely they have all the research data backed up somewhere and they destroyed the station because Wilson had already compromised it. The things they've learned from Lazarus can be used for other purposes besides resurrecting a dead person. For example, technology and techniques used to regenerate Shepard's brain could yield great advances in a cure for Alzheimer's that a Cerberus front company could make a fortune off of.

[Arijharn]

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't think Wilson was planning to go freelance. There's info in Legion's LotSB dossier that confirms that he was working for the Shadow Broker. As for the destruction of the Lazarus facility, I doubt Cerberus would just throw away 4 billion credits worth of research. More likely they have all the research data backed up somewhere and they destroyed the station because Wilson had already compromised it. The things they've learned from Lazarus can be used for other purposes besides resurrecting a dead person. For example, technology and techniques used to regenerate Shepard's brain could yield great advances in a cure for Alzheimer's that a Cerberus front company could make a fortune off of.

Or Cerberus backers. If Cerberus receives a gamut of funding from private sources then it's probably safe to assume that those backers may want something out of it. They could be donated out of some twisted sense of altruism but I don't buy it.

The Lazarus Project will be generating wealth in one way or another for many years yet for Cerberus.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
frankly my shep has no intention of having kids, and hasn't even considered it. personally i play games to get away from that kind of stuff, so if it's brought up again i won't be pleased, but will deal with it accordingly (i guess like real life, too - ha),

That's basically how I'm usually playing games. I actually tend to be allergic to too much family stuff coming up in games, because it often buries interesting plotlines under a heap of inconsequential personal conflicts which should have no business interfering with the plot. ME2 isn't exactly innocent in this regard - the Reapers are coming and Shepard wastes time solving everyone's personal problems, most of which are completely unrelated to the plot.

On the other side, doing personal stuff for someone you love is completely natural, even, perhaps even especially, in dark times such as these. That's why I like romances added to the story, as long as they don't dominate it (heh, I'm one to talk, but I'm actually concerned with Miranda as a character. The romance is just an added bonus)

So I started out with my Shepards who didn't want a family, and that basic fact hasn't changed. But it's very obvious to me that Miranda would want children, and if I take my romances seriously, I must think about whether or not my Shepards will change their minds, and if they do, when and why.

i certainly agree with this.

btw anyone seen this yet?


cr: http://exullium.devi...ery/]deviantart gallery[/url]

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The question is how. Artificial gametogenesis should be no problem at all for 22nd century tech, but the fact would remain that Miranda is not *naturally* fertile. I think that would matter to her. For people like me who care about the transhumanism angle, the important aspect would be that Miranda is genetically fertile, i.e. that her condition isn't genetic. From that angle, it would be enough for the bigger picture if Oriana is naturally fertile, but since I do like Miranda (surprise), I want her to be happy with whoever she chooses to be with, lead a life that gives her the challenge she craves, including having children if she wants, or not, and have the role as a symbol for humanity's future at the same time. Once she's come to terms with how she was created, I think she'd appreciate the irony thereof.

coming from a transhumanist angle - part of transhumanism is overcoming biological shortages with technology or biological engineering, from that side of it it doesn't matter if she's (or anyone for that matter) naturally fertile as long as they can be made to be so that viable reproduction can continue. it's not ideal but then technology is always improving.

[Jebel Krong]

Arijharn wrote...

Maybe this is just me living precariously through my alter-ego that is Commander Shephard, but I should imagine that if he really did make passionate love to Miranda for any stretch of time, then Oriana should be damn jealous.. (of Miranda... the other contemplation while for some reason being incredibly hot is just plain icky).

haha not to mention tali, liara, kelly chambers, even jack...  of and there's no "if" in that statement.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

All right, here you go. Remember this is set in 2176 and Shepard is only 22! This is also an unedited draft.

*snip*

“Palazzo Danieli is one of Europe's most valuable cultural assets, rebuilt with original material after the tsunami of 2090. Things could get very awkward with the local government, not to mention expensive, if it's damaged significantly. So, please, no explosions.”

Shepard managed to look chagrined. His reputation as military intelligence's 'demolition man' wasn't entirely undeserved, but he still thought people made too much of it.

“Yes, sir.”

ha! reminds me of quantum of solace  and very much how i picture the single-mindedness with which shepard pursues his agenda.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's another question I posted before but got no answers:

What do you think about the possibility of one of Miranda's elder sisters being alive and running/flying around the galaxy as a mirror copy of her - except for the personality which would be drastically different?

possible, but unlikely: we don't know how many came before miranda, but having had failures (and ones that got away) would probably give someone like Miranda's father pause to consider the project entirely - someone in his position would not be a fool, even if he obviously has a substantial ego.
secondly, given the difficulties in timelines already, that potential escapee couldn't be biotic (fitting miranda herself in is problematic enough, unless we are missing something - like certain people knowing about biotics earlier than previously thought).
thirdly, the time it takes to grow a child is still fixed, any more than 3-4 would place the overall timeline at at least 40 years - significant in terms of human lifespan, whislt this doesn't preclude such an effort, it makes it more unlikely, especially when you then consider that subject escaping (and subsequent generations would also suffer more intense scrutiny/security - making miranda's escape more difficult/unlikely).

i end with the proposition: what if another escapee was a male?

[lobi]

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't think Wilson was planning to go freelance. There's info in Legion's LotSB dossier that confirms that he was working for the Shadow Broker. As for the destruction of the Lazarus facility, I doubt Cerberus would just throw away 4 billion credits worth of research. More likely they have all the research data backed up somewhere and they destroyed the station because Wilson had already compromised it. The things they've learned from Lazarus can be used for other purposes besides resurrecting a dead person. For example, technology and techniques used to regenerate Shepard's brain could yield great advances in a cure for Alzheimer's that a Cerberus front company could make a fortune off of.

Miranda is a Cerberus ****!
Lazarous station was left intact and data retained. Wilson was also T.I.M's agent to keep tabs on Miranda and the project which is why he maybe had mech clearence. He had hots for ****face, and made the mistake of voicing it in audio log. He may have been confronted by TIM over this. Wilson saw writing on wall and approached SB. TIM told Miranda Wilson was suspect. TIM started the mechs and set the whole thing up to get Miranda to take out Wilson and start Shep on road to trust Jacob or Miranda or both. Wilson had done all that was asked and was of no further use, plus he hit on T.I.M's toy and annoyed her, so he was outa there Cerberus style. TIM sent Shep into Collecters trap because he was confident he would win, whats a few mechs? Also a good test to see if combat skills retained, Shep useless without them.

Modifié par lobi, 15 septembre 2010 - 09:56 .

[Jebel Krong]

Elyvern wrote...

Another excerpt, except this is right at the start of the fic. Just finished it, unedited of course. Apologies for the spam, this is the last one before I piece everything up together into a proper chapter.  

*snip*

very good, though i couldn't imagine shepard, nor miranda, settling for a life of farming. tbh i think he would carry on doing exactly what he is doing...

i would like to see the finished version when you're done though - consider my attention well-piqued.

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Elyvern:
I really like this. With a few paragraphs, you bring the Reaper war and its aftermath to life in a way Bioware will probably never manage. Your Miranda and Shepard are completely lifelike and convincing. I only find it hard to imagine Miranda content with the kind of life you describe. "Let's go far away...." in one of my imagined endings, I have my Shepard and Miranda say something similar as well, but the result is very different. 

Please do post the link to your story once you have something published. I'd hate to miss it. 

Edit:
One thing: I don't think "megalithic" is a suitable term for describing the Citadel. And your metaphor for the silence is perhaps a bit too disturbing.

i agree with the first. megalithic is fine btw as the citadel is both extremely big and old.

[lobi]

Wait,..Is this Canon or Fan Fic? if the later ignore previous post.



sorry

[Arijharn]

Wilson is confusing for me, in the prologue he definitely did sound like he had a degree of unrequited feelings for Miranda ("maybe now Miranda will notice how much I've done" or words to that effect) but the Legion dossier on the shadow broker made it sound as if Wilson was a plant (maybe even a plant from the stages where Lazarus was still just in its planning stages, perhaps before Liara even managed to retrieve Shep's body). Protip: Legion's dossier changes slightly in this regard if you put David back into Overlord.



While I suppose it is possible that both is true, I'm not sure how he could correlate 'getting even' with Miranda for spurning him by attempting to exterminate every one on the station, although I would say that the information/data that Wilson got as part of Lazarus' success would outweigh any intrinsic value that Shephard himself (or herself) holds.



Hell, perhaps Wilson found out about her iPartner connections and lost it because it wasn't himself who was sleeping with her.

[t3HPrO]

Nah Wilson found Miranda to be an intolerable b!tch. It wouldn't make sense that he'd want to f$ck the woman who was giving him a hard time.

[t3HPrO]

@arijharn



Sorry to punch holes, but the 'notice how much i've done' was more likely for Miranda to put in a good word with TIM to get him promoted or something like that.

[t3HPrO]

@lobi



Go back under the trollbridge you damn troll...



Miranda was TIM's agent to make sure Wilson did his job right, not the other way round.

[Arijharn]

t3HPrO wrote...

Nah Wilson found Miranda to be an intolerable b!tch. It wouldn't make sense that he'd want to f$ck the woman who was giving him a hard time.

I think it's both. Miranda is damn attractive after all.

[Elyvern]

lobi wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't think Wilson was planning to go freelance. There's info in Legion's LotSB dossier that confirms that he was working for the Shadow Broker. As for the destruction of the Lazarus facility, I doubt Cerberus would just throw away 4 billion credits worth of research. More likely they have all the research data backed up somewhere and they destroyed the station because Wilson had already compromised it. The things they've learned from Lazarus can be used for other purposes besides resurrecting a dead person. For example, technology and techniques used to regenerate Shepard's brain could yield great advances in a cure for Alzheimer's that a Cerberus front company could make a fortune off of.

Miranda is a Cerberus ****!
Lazarous station was left intact and data retained. Wilson was also T.I.M's agent to keep tabs on Miranda and the project which is why he maybe had mech clearence. He had hots for ****face, and made the mistake of voicing it in audio log. He may have been confronted by TIM over this. Wilson saw writing on wall and approached SB. TIM told Miranda Wilson was suspect. TIM started the mechs and set the whole thing up to get Miranda to take out Wilson and start Shep on road to trust Jacob or Miranda or both. Wilson had done all that was asked and was of no further use, plus he hit on T.I.M's toy and annoyed her, so he was outa there Cerberus style. TIM sent Shep into Collecters trap because he was confident he would win, whats a few mechs? Also a good test to see if combat skills retained, Shep useless without them.

I don't know if you are a troll or not, but read the cerberus mission concluded screen after you leave Lazarus, it plainly states the the station was destroyed remotely after the shuttle left. That's canon. Your take on Wilson being TIM's agent and TIM orchestrating the attack has no basis in the game at all and remains your personal conjecture, as are many posts in here--people's personal conjectures which makes for good material for discussion. 

Modifié par Elyvern, 15 septembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Elyvern]

@Jebel - nice art, except it seems to imply Cerberus dominance.

Miranda said outright that all her siblings are female, so a male escapee would be really non-canon.

About the excerpt, don't get lulled by the setting. It's supposed to represent an ideal, which doesn't last long.

[fongiel24]

Jebel Krong wrote...

btw anyone seen this yet?

cr: http://exullium.devi...ery/]deviantart gallery[/url]

I've seen this in a few places. It's very well done, but Shepard and Samara should switch places. The way it's currently laid out, the viewer's eye is naturally drawn to Samara in the centre. If I knew nothing about ME2, I would assume Samara was the central character in the game.

[fongiel24]

lobi wrote...

Miranda is a Cerberus ****!
Lazarous station was left intact and data retained. Wilson was also T.I.M's agent to keep tabs on Miranda and the project which is why he maybe had mech clearence. He had hots for ****face, and made the mistake of voicing it in audio log. He may have been confronted by TIM over this. Wilson saw writing on wall and approached SB. TIM told Miranda Wilson was suspect. TIM started the mechs and set the whole thing up to get Miranda to take out Wilson and start Shep on road to trust Jacob or Miranda or both. Wilson had done all that was asked and was of no further use, plus he hit on T.I.M's toy and annoyed her, so he was outa there Cerberus style. TIM sent Shep into Collecters trap because he was confident he would win, whats a few mechs? Also a good test to see if combat skills retained, Shep useless without them.

For the sake of discussion, I'm going to assume you're not a troll, even though you open with "Miranda is a Cerberus *****!" and refer to her as "****face".

If TIM and Miranda really wanted Wilson dead, they don't have to stage a mech attack to do it. Wilson and Miranda are on a Cerberus station. Everybody there is Cerberus and there is no outside law enforcement. Miranda doesn't have to make it look like an accident. Wilson is also just a doctor so there's no need to send an army after him. All Miranda has to do is put a bullet in his skull and throw the body out an airlock. As for the "get Shepard to trust his people" angle, I don't buy this either. Upon meeting Jacob and Miranda, Shepard's dialogue options still seem to imply he still doesn't trust them, even though they saved his life. Besides, Miranda simply saying "I recovered your body and brought you back to life" should be enough reason for Shepard to at least hear her out. If resurrecting someone from the dead isn't enough, saving them from a few mechs won't be either.

The "Lazarus Station was a test" theory I've already seen in a number of places and it doesn't make any more sense the tenth time I read it. Miranda is forced to wake Shepard before their work is complete. His scars are yet unhealed and he likely still has anesthetic and possibly other drugs running through his blood. What if Shepard is still drowsy from the anesthetic or a suture splits while he's fighting through the mechs? Cerberus is out 4 billion credits and has to recover the body to start over again. There are far safer ways to ensure Shepard's combat skills are intact. If they tested him in a controlled environment with nonlethal simulations, they could more carefully monitor him and if his skills seemed to have degraded, Cerberus could put him back on the operating table to fix the problem.

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's another question I posted before but got no answers:

What do you think about the possibility of one of Miranda's elder sisters being alive and running/flying around the galaxy as a mirror copy of her - except for the personality which would be drastically different?

possible, but unlikely: we don't know how many came before miranda, but having had failures (and ones that got away) would probably give someone like Miranda's father pause to consider the project entirely - someone in his position would not be a fool, even if he obviously has a substantial ego.

Wait until you see how I handle this in my fanfic. I've got what I think is a plausible scenario that answers several questions.

secondly, given the difficulties in timelines already, that potential escapee couldn't be biotic (fitting miranda herself in is problematic enough, unless we are missing something - like certain people knowing about biotics earlier than previously thought).

Any older sisters can't be biotics. No problem for me.

thirdly, the time it takes to grow a child is still fixed, any more than 3-4 would place the overall timeline at at least 40 years - significant in terms of human lifespan, whislt this doesn't preclude such an effort, it makes it more unlikely, especially when you then consider that subject escaping (and subsequent generations would also suffer more intense scrutiny/security - making miranda's escape more difficult/unlikely).

I'm planning for two older sisters in my scenario. If you've read "Promethean Legacy", then you also know they're twins.

i end with the proposition: what if another escapee was a male?

Possible. We don't know why "Mr.Lawson" made his daughters. Perhaps it was the dynasty angle, but that's not a compelling reason as I see it. I won't use that scenario, though.  

[Ieldra]

sniper1250 wrote...
I have a question, why do so many people think that Miranda desperately wants kids? Is it all a personal interpretation that many of you share or was there some previous characterization discussion that concluded this? I haven't seen any evidence in game that she leans one way or the other on this issue beyond the LotSB dossier, and that has no context.

As I have said, I do not think Miranda desperately wants children. I've only said it's not implausible that she'll eventually want children. Personally, I don't really care, it will not be an issue in most of my games and stories, and unless I'm forced into an ME3 ending where miranda has children I'll likely be able to live with the result.

She may have gone to that clinic to pickup info for Cerberus and they just needed a cover condition that fit the department the operative was hiding in that also allowed for records of her visit to be destroyed legally. She also could have possibly caused the condition in herself as a more permanent form of birth control until she deemed it was time to fix it because she was going to be on a distant space station with no idea how long she would have to stay there, only that she might not be able to leave until it's done. Even the birth controls in the ME universe have time-limits on them after all.

You are aware that there is always an infinite number of scenarios fitting the available evidence? That's why we have guidelines like Occam's razor. The discussion here is about the most plausible scenarios, or the canonical one, which isn't easy to grasp because of contradictions within the body of evidence.

I'm kinda leaning more towards the idea that she doesn't want kids because it would be the greatest thing she could do to spite her father and his vision of a dynasty. I still haven't ruled out my theory that her father wanted to make sure that his daughters didn't escape and have kids with some random guy he didn't select. I think someone was saying that they thought Miranda's father wanted Miranda and her sisters to eventually breed into the population, but I disagree. He wants a dynasty for himself and his family line, not to improve humanity with painstakingly selected genes. It would make more sense that he wants his perfected genes to stay in his family and ignore the plight of the common man and his regular old "natural" genepool.

No, I said that I'd like the irony of that scenario - that Miranda's traits would eventually make their way into the population at large through her children, counteracting her father's obsession with the genetic exclusivity of a dynasty. It is *my* preferred scenario, not "Mr.Lawson's". For the same reason your idea of why Miranda might not want children doesn't hold: if she does not follow the rules laid out by her father when getting children, then she is acting against his interests already.

I also recall I've called your scenario "uncomfortably plausible". I don't like to talk about it because I want Miranda to have no genetic flaws that make her infertile.

The same could be said of Lazarus technology[...]

See above. You can invent any number of reasons why the tech can't be applied to Miranda's problem if you want, that doesn't mean they result in the most plausible scenario. Ultimately, IMO once something's out of the box, you can't put it in again. It may be some time until it surfaces to form something useful, but Miranda is near the source and an expert in the matter, so it would be quite a lot more likely she knows how to apply it. Correcting her problem should also be much less expensive that rebuilding Shepard.