15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

crazy double post.

Modifié par Arijharn, 16 septembre 2010 - 11:22 .

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
I'm reading your story Ieldra, I like it. Reminds me that if I ever become a super successful corporate magnate of a defence conglomerate and I feel the need to genetically engineer a super daughter, then I would make sure that even as a heiress she wouldn't have executive level clearances...

Thanks
As for the clearance - yeah. Might be one of those things that belongs on the Evil Overlord List. But assuming you're mostly a decent human, I gather you'd avoid the conflict by treating your super daughter in a different manner. That's one of those things I've had difficulty getting into: the obsessive personality of Miranda's father. It was very difficult to come up even with the few sentences I gave him to say, because in some way he remains unreal.  I can understand sacrificing morality for expediency (i.e. the ME-Renegade mindset), but the authoritarian mindset remains a mystery to me.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[Arijharn]

Honestly though, I think the biggest trap you could fall into in regards to her father is to make him too 'evil.'



I think that in regards to Alexander De Morgan there are some things that could be true.

• Miranda's judgements may be a little too clouded for objective reasoning.

• Miranda may be subjected to only half truths (purposely?)

• Miranda's father, to her, will probably always be a giant. I would wager that just the way she's brought up she'd probably never exorcise this particular demon. Even after she hooks up with Shephard (and hell, has kids ) and even if she puts a mass accelerator round into Alexander's forehead, she'll never escape him and that thought alone probably puts more fear into her than what she'd be willing to admit, even to herself.

[snfonseka]

There is a interesting discussion going on about Shpards control chip, that involve Miranda also. So if any of you miss the discussion here is the link....

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/4789748/1

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Chapter 3 of "Promethean Legacy" is up. Wherein, among other things:

*Miranda displays some ruthlessness
*She sees her sister, as the result of which she attempts some high-tech smuggling
*She says farewell to Niket
*CAE's computers exhibit some strange behaviour, as the result of which Miranda jumps from a 2km-high tower...

In Chapter 4, tentatively titled "Crossing the Styx", Miranda will make a deal with a Cerberus agent and leave Earth. Interference by other interested parties seems likely.

(At the time I'm posting this, it's possible there are two mistakes left in Chapter 3 since the corrected version has been published, but doesn't show yet - §$%-delay)

Bravo, Ieldra! Finally took the time to read all three chapters closely. Very well crafted and character progression is entirely believable. This could very well fit into the canon, although I'm assuming Miranda isn't out of the woods yet, since there weren't enough "shots fired". I love the elaborations on her biotic powers. The sequence where she escaped from her captors reminded me of of the movie X-3 where Jean Grey disintegrated everything in her room with telekinesis. It was a powerful scene and that was the image that came to mind when I read that part.

Liked the Tempest analogy. It was something that struck me hard and I could never shake it from my mind, because Miranda's father is every inch a diabolic Prospero who kept his daughter sequestered and locked away from the world, and on an island like Tasmania, no less. Although I think I would laugh if one day someone decides to write a Shep & Miri story with Shep's first name being Ferdinand. It would be comedy gold.  

Alot of other things that I like but can't think of offhand. Nice bit of insertion that it was Miranda who gave her sister the name Oriana. All in all, it's extremely believable, and from this snapshot of a 16 year old Miri, I can see how she would become the woman she is in ME2.

[Elyvern]

Nightwriter wrote...

Some would prefer the fanfic focus on what you know about a character - namely, that the character is attracted to the opposite sex - than what you do not know about a character, which can feel fake or invalid or contradictory simply because it is a total non-presence in the canon and thus does not feel quite right.

The thing is compared to a whole lot of other fandoms, we ME fans really don't have that much to work with. It's also the reason why we tear up every scrape of information like vultures to a kill.

Now, it's entirely your prerogative to say your idea of Miranda is one that strictly adheres to what's established about her, and other possibilities, including those wouldn't be entirely out of her established character, but isn't outright ruled out by canon material are no-go. Examples like this would include Miranda possibly being bi-sexual or entertains sexual interest in alien races. But going that way restricts interesting speculations as well as extraneous enjoyment of exploring her character from a fandom's perspective.

Granted, every person's threshold for what they construe as believable differ, and it can be argued that past a certain point, most fans would agree when something is OOC. My take is with justification, anything is believable, but some scenarios are so far-fetched that the amount of justification needed to make it convincing would end up in the realm of "trying too hard." Sadly, lot of fanfics out there fail to even attempt to justify why a particular character would act that way. But for the few gems that do so, I'd say don't be so quick to disclaim them. Take a wait and see approach, they may surprise you, or they may not.  

Modifié par Elyvern, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:25 .

[Jebel Krong]

for some reason, Ieldra, your chapter made me think of this:



(from MattRhodes' deviantart page).

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...


Of course it isn't her real name. But it's a cover deep enough that even Cerberus people use it - possibly only TIM knows her real name - and at the same time everyone else also knows her under that name, so the name connects her to Cerberus and has lost its function as a cover for Cerberus activities. Second, if it's a deep cover, you don't compromise it by using it for activities of lesser importance. Third, Oriana shares the surname. If you want to hide your sister, this is so stupid it doesn't bear thinking about. Fourth, if I were to use an extranet chatroom and hide my ID, I wouldn't use a username that could be connected to *any* of my identities.

(Yeah, it might just be I'm too fond of spy stories. But that doesn't make my points less valid)

I'd agree with everything except the part where Oriana shares her surname. Look at the letter Oriana sends to Shepard, the name Lawson was in parenthesis. It felt more like Oriana was worried Shepard may not know who she was and adding that tag was her way to prevent confusion. And/Or it was Oriana's personal attempt to affirm solidarity with her sister. The chat transcript in the SB dossier also cannot conclusively prove that Oriana has the same name either. Realistically speaking, Oriana probably shares the same name as her adoptive parents, even though we have no idea what that name might be. 

My take is Bioware didn't want to make fans more confused than they were. It seems sufficient for them that "Lawson" can be easily construed as a pseudonym because it's a conclusion that can be reached without too much mental effort, anything more would result in discussion threads that run off at the speed of light and all in the wrong directions.  

Modifié par Elyvern, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
Honestly though, I think the biggest trap you could fall into in regards to her father is to make him too 'evil.'

Maybe, though honestly I think I'm relatively immune to that particular trap. I had to struggle to make him evil enough to justify the kind of conflict we're seeing, and it's much the same with all other characters who are more than ciphers like the two masked men in Chapter 2.

I think that in regards to Alexander De Morgan there are some things that could be true.
• Miranda's judgements may be a little too clouded for objective reasoning.
• Miranda may be subjected to only half truths (purposely?)
• Miranda's father, to her, will probably always be a giant. I would wager that just the way she's brought up she'd probably never exorcise this particular demon. Even after she hooks up with Shephard (and hell, has kids ) and even if she puts a mass accelerator round into Alexander's forehead, she'll never escape him and that thought alone probably puts more fear into her than what she'd be willing to admit, even to herself.

In the scenario of "Promethean Legacy" there is not much room left for half-truths or clouded judgments, but from the information given in the game that may be true.

Regarding the question if she can be ever free of him: physically, she is what he made her, so no. But that doesn't mean she can't exorcise him as the demon of her childhood. She needn't even kill him for that. All she needs is to be able to say with conviction about herself: It doesn't matter if I have done what I've done because of my father or in spite of him, all that matters is that I've done it of my own will and that I'm content with how it turned out.
Essentially, she needs to accepts that she is, and has always been, more than another's tool.

[Ieldra]

Thanks for the compliments, Elyvern.

This could very well fit into the canon, although I'm assuming Miranda isn't out of the woods yet, since there weren't enough "shots fired".

I hope it does remain canon-compatible, since it's my vision of Miranda's story. When I play, it's always in the background in my mind. Yes, there will be more shots fired in Chapter 4.

I love the elaborations on her biotic powers.

It has always bugged me how nowhere in the game there is a hint of how extraordinarily useful biotic powers could be outside of actual combat, and that there was an overarching theory of biotic powers, but no explanation of how the powers fit into it. I think it can be said I'm obsessed with worldbuiding anywhere where there is a fictional world to decipher... most book authors do worldbuilding very well, but the video game industry follows TV more closely in applying "coolness overrides sense". IMO this is one of ME's biggest flaws, and I'm always glad if I can fit some hitherto implausible fact into the greater whole.

Liked the Tempest analogy. It was something that struck me hard and I could never shake it from my mind, because Miranda's father is every inch a diabolic Prospero who kept his daughter sequestered and locked away from the world, and on an island like Tasmania, no less. Although I think I would laugh if one day someone decides to write a Shep & Miri story with Shep's first name being Ferdinand. It would be comedy gold.

LOL. That would be hilarious to read. I won't write it, though. It's strange how this analogy made it into the story. The whole sequence "Our revels now are ended.[...]", ending with "We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep." is one of my most favorite classics quotes, and the analogy struck me when I envisioned how Miranda lived up there two kilometers above ground surrounded by nothing but clouds.

Nice bit of insertion that it was Miranda who gave her sister the name Oriana.

Heh, that was completely unintentional. The intent was to make Miranda find her sister's name in Chang's document - her own project ID had her name on it, so implicitly Oriana's also has her name on it. I guess I haven't made that explicit enough, but if it comes across as Miranda naming her sister that's OK with me.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 septembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Granted, every person's threshold for what they construe as believable differ, and it can be argued that past a certain point, most fans would agree when something is OOC. My take is with justification, anything is believable, but some scenarios are so far-fetched that the amount of justification needed to make it convincing would end up in the realm of "trying too hard." Sadly, lot of fanfics out there fail to even attempt to justify why a particular character would act that way. But for the few gems that do so, I'd say don't be so quick to disclaim them. Take a wait and see approach, they may surprise you, or they may not.  

I fully agree. Well-written stories are always worth reading, regardless of whether they fit in my personal vision or not. There may be well-written ones I won't read because they're not to my taste, but tastes differ.

[Ieldra]

BTW, this is the picture I have in mind when writing about teenage Miranda:

[jtav]

I'm actually ridiculously picky about my characterization of Miranda. I like my morally ambiguous superspy, so if she's mooning like a teenager then I'm not going to read it. I'm not going to go deliberately OOC for the sake of whatever sexual practice I can dream up. It always has to be Miranda having these relationships. At the same time, I think I have considerable freedom to go beyond canon, so long as I don't actually contradict it. A Miranda who is attracted to Liara but not a MaleShep who dislikes her is one thing. A Miranda who isn't attracted to men at all is another. And she is very much still a ruthless superspy in my story. She's literally teaching Liara how to get away with murder (and theft, blackmail, and bribery). I think I'm good.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I hope it does remain canon-compatible, since it's my vision of Miranda's story. When I play, it's always in the background in my mind. Yes, there will be more shots fired in Chapter 4.

Went back to re-read some parts and I find myself concerned with Cerberus's goals for her. At this point in your fic, it seems like they only want Miranda as a potential test-subject or recruitment material for a soulless spy/soldier-- literally a tool, but definitely not on the level of importance she plays in ME2. Would be interesting if she turns the tables on TIM and raises his level of respect for her.

It has always bugged me how nowhere in the game there is a hint of how extraordinarily useful biotic powers could be outside of actual combat, and that there was an overarching theory of biotic powers, but no explanation of how the powers fit into it. I think it can be said I'm obsessed with worldbuiding anywhere where there is a fictional world to decipher... most book authors do worldbuilding very well, but the video game industry follows TV more closely in applying "coolness overrides sense". IMO this is one of ME's biggest flaws, and I'm always glad if I can fit some hitherto implausible fact into the greater whole.

Very much so. That was my exact sentiment when I wrote in the silly mineral probing thing in my first excerpt. Which even up till now, doesn't make much sense to me that Cerberus would fund the project and then force the Normandy to mine for its own raw material. Not to mention it's a frigate, not a mining ship.  

I like how you induced a sense of epic-ness into how she uses her biotic powers, especially during the 2km fall. Judging solely by your fiction, it doesn't seem surprising to me that given time, she may conjure Singularity too, a power that we've been told only the strongest biotics (mostly Asari and Special Shep) can execute. And I'd also be interested in how you would justify that Miranda only gets Slam after her loyalty quest, even though technically Slam isn't much different from Throw, it just smashes the target to the floor after a while.

LOL. That would be hilarious to read. I won't write it, though. It's strange how this analogy made it into the story. The whole sequence "Our revels now are ended.[...]", ending with "We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep." is one of my most favorite classics quotes, and the analogy struck me when I envisioned how Miranda lived up there two kilometers above ground surrounded by nothing but clouds.

Your fic isn't the first that refers to the play actually. Remember me asking if there was a fanfic link missing from the OP where someone else wrote a "Miranda escaping from her father with Oriana" scenario? Funnily enough, it also included a part where Miranda toyed with keeping Oriana as a daughter, of which I read echoes of in your Miri (unintentionally) naming Oriana. I still can't find that fic btw, grr!

Yes, those are very memorable lines, even though it's pretty incongruous considering how the story is so fantastical and comic. In fact, you could even posit that Niket could be Caliban, one of the most tragic characters in the play, although he's definitely not looking to create his own kingdom, or with Miranda as the mother of his children.

Interestingly enough, in planning for an older sister for Miranda in my fic, I've already thought of a name for her--Cordelia, another Shakespearean-origins name, and possibly apt considering Cordelia was a daughter who sacrificed everything for her father.

Modifié par Elyvern, 16 septembre 2010 - 06:10 .

[RollaWarden]

Hey, everybody.  It's been awhile for me.  August-October are 7-day work weeks for me--nature of my business.  So not a lot of playing time available for me right now. 

I decided some time ago to do my "canon" playthrough of both ME1 and ME2, and ME1 is a tough go, so far.  As I wrote a couple of months ago, I don't want fo have a LI in this ME1 playthrough. 

However...

After reading ME: Redemption and seeing (I won't play it until my ME2 playthrough), the LotSB trailer, I've actually been tempted to engage Liara as a love interest.  I've actually let myself believe that the devs might be pushing Liara as a "canon" LI.  

Here's my question: have you fellow Miranda loyalists played LotSB?  Is it a satisfying experience if Liara is just a friend?  I know, I know--I shouldn't let it bother me.  The trailer just looked like it might be more fun if Liara is my Shep's LI.    So talk me out of it.  Help me regain the sense I know I ought to have.

Avoiding the Ashley Williams romance path was easy, and rather natural.  Just this morning while playing, I went through Ashley's "What about all these aliens on board ship?" dialogue, and I got annoyed.  Actually annoyed.  I almost unthinkingly hit the "You're out of line, Williams!" option (which I've never done before--I used to be an Ashley LI fan, if you recall, and fell hard later for Miranda), and that was that.  I later felt a little bit bad that I snapped at her, but I did think she was out of line, and, while immersively role-playing, wanted to remind her who was in charge now that Captain Anderson was no longer commander of the Normandy.  

I feel really good about avoiding the romance path with Ashley, because now it feels much more appropriate, and natural--she is a subordinate, and my Shep really was annoyed with her attitude about the other species on board ship.

Oh, and I know that I'll leave Ashley on Virmire.  I can already feel a friendship growing with Kaiden.  Buds.  Maybe not best buddies like my Shep is with Garrus, but buds, nonetheless.

So help me out here, gang.  I need an intervention.  I'm calling out to the Miranda faithful.  Help me stay strong, and avoid the Liara romance path.  Remind me how Liara is better as a friend, and Miranda is the only true, natural, and equal LI partner for Shep.

Help! 

Modifié par RollaWarden, 16 septembre 2010 - 07:26 .

[Elyvern]

Goddamnit....my comp died on me and ate up the fic file, so all I have are the two excerpts I (thankfully) posted here. Really pissed off right now, bloody hell!

Modifié par Elyvern, 16 septembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Went back to re-read some parts and I find myself concerned with Cerberus's goals for her. At this point in your fic, it seems like they only want Miranda as a potential test-subject or recruitment material for a soulless spy/soldier-- literally a tool, but definitely not on the level of importance she plays in ME2. Would be interesting if she turns the tables on TIM and raises his level of respect for her.

Oh, they know very well how special she is. Using her as cannon fodder would make no sense at all. Still, she will have to earn their respect, and they may want something from her she won't give lightly. It can't be too bad, though, since she is loyal to them in ME2.

Judging solely by your fiction, it doesn't seem surprising to me that given time, she may conjure Singularity too, a power that we've been told only the strongest biotics (mostly Asari and Special Shep) can execute. And I'd also be interested in how you would justify that Miranda only gets Slam after her loyalty quest, even though technically Slam isn't much different from Throw, it just smashes the target to the floor after a while.

In fact, I wouldn't deal with it at all. The reason is that the differentiation of powers in the game follows the needs of character skill development and differentiation, not the in-world logic. When there's gameplay/story segregation, I almost always solve the contradiction by ignoring the gameplay element. Because I deduce powers from the in-world theory rather that from gameplay, in my fanfic Miranda has basic telekinetics, i.e.attracting and repulsing powers as well as basic mass affecting power, all of which she doesn't have in the game. I still consider it canon-compatible, because the overarching theory which is part of the canon overrules any contradictory single powers.  I'd also completely ignore the existence of Reave and Dominate, because they do not fit into the overarching theory with any stretch of your imagination.
The difference between Warp and Singularity, as I see it, is one of power/energy. AFAIR, power potential is determined by innate potential and implants. Miranda may or may not be able to use Singularity, both could be rationalized.  

Your fic isn't the first that refers to the play actually. Remember me asking if there was a fanfic link missing from the OP where someone else wrote a "Miranda escaping from her father with Oriana" scenario? Funnily enough, it also included a part where Miranda toyed with keeping Oriana as a daughter, of which I read echoes of in your Miri (unintentionally) naming Oriana. I still can't find that fic btw, grr!

If you find it, post the link here, please!

Interestingly enough, in planning for an older sister for Miranda in my fic, I've already thought of a name for her--Cordelia, another Shakespearean-origins name, and possibly apt considering Cordelia was a daughter who sacrificed everything for her father.

Sounds very interesting....I'm very curious and looking forward to reading it.

[Ieldra]

[quote]RollaWarden wrote...
Here's my question: have you fellow Miranda loyalists played LotSB?  Is it a satisfying experience if Liara is just a friend?  I know, I know--I shouldn't let it bother me.  The trailer just looked like it might be more fun if Liara is my Shep's LI.    So talk me out of it.  Help me regain the sense I know I ought to have.[/quote]
Let's say I am so very delighted by what Liara has to say at the end of LotSB about the relationship between my Shepard and his LI (Miranda) that I'd rather miss one of the (non-romance) conversations in the original game than this one. Answer enough?

Liara is also very satisfying as Shepard's friend, unlike all other potential LIs.

So: no, having Miranda as an LI makes a very good LotSB playthrough. Stay with the one who complements Shepard best.

Though admittedly Liara is given a huge boost, in that from now on she plays in the same league as Miranda as an LI.
[/quote]

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 septembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[jtav]

I'd suggest doing it both ways. There's no rule that says Miranda's is the only romance you can like or that you have to like it at all. I found the friendship path for Liara very satisfying and I can't wait to try the romance-exclusive content in my current game. Liara and Miranda are both great characters, and I'd hare to have to choose between them.

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Goddamnit....my comp died on me and ate up the fic file, so all I have are the two excerpts I (thankfully) posted here. Really pissed off right now, bloody hell!

Ouch! I feel your pain. Something like that's happened to me twice this year - once to four chapters of a fic I was working on (actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise because what I lost wasn't all that great) and a term paper (that one really hurt). Since the second incident I've started backing up all my work by uploading it to my gmail account. 

@RollaWarden

I like Liara's romance but like most regular posters in this thread, it's very difficult for me to choose anyone other than Miranda, particularly for my canon playthroughs.

LotSB was awesome even with Liara as only a friend. You don't need to romance Liara to experience how much work Bioware put into fleshing out her character. Of course romancing her gets you some different dialogue, but even if you're "only" friends, LotSB really gives the impression that Liara really cares about Shepard. If you stick with Miranda as your LI, there's also some exclusive dialogue where Liara comments on her and Shepard (she has exclusive dialogue for every romance AFAIK).

Modifié par fongiel24, 16 septembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Goddamnit....my comp died on me and ate up the fic file, so all I have are the two excerpts I (thankfully) posted here. Really pissed off right now, bloody hell!

Every line lost of a good Miranda fic is a tragedy.

(That's why I copy my files on my USB stick almost every day.)

BTW: Writing sex scenes is a b*tch. One day of work and three pages to show for it.

[jtav]

Okay, I get it. I suck at fictional monogamy. I love both ladies, though not necessarily with Shepard.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
Goddamnit....my comp died on me and ate up the fic file, so all I have are the two excerpts I (thankfully) posted here. Really pissed off right now, bloody hell!

Every line lost of a good Miranda fic is a tragedy.

(That's why I copy my files on my USB stick almost every day.)

BTW: Writing sex scenes is a b*tch. One day of work and three pages to show for it.

A three-page sex scene is a very long sex scene . I don't think I've seen anything like that outside of actual erotica.

jtav wrote...

Okay, I get it. I suck at fictional monogamy. I love both ladies, though not necessarily with Shepard.

Fictional monogamy is easy for me, but I'm not entirely sure why. Maybe because I have very exclusive tastes when it comes to LIs? The last female character I really fell in love with was Bastila from KOTOR. Physically Bastila and Miranda are similar (pale skin, brown hair, blue eyes) and some aspects of their personalities are similar as well (they're both prodigies in their respective fields with somewhat icy exteriors).

[jtav]

Oh I'm not talking about them as LIs. They're just really great fictional characters who I love to pieces. There's always a certain distance between me and the romances for MaleShep because I'm not attracted to any of them, nor are the romance plots themselves usually to my taste. Now, Kaidan and Thane are another story. I just don't post there often because I have very little intelligent to say.

[Mr Plow]

LOTSB really boosted Liara in my eyes - was tempted think about going back and taking her on as my LI. (actually picked Ashley in ME1 - must be a brunette thing)



Miranda is still number one for me but Ithink Liara is up there with Miranda as equals now rather than being subordinate to Shepard. In fact maybe moreso than Miranda