15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Yep, Miranda > Jack (what else would you expect me to say)



Question for bonus points: whose part of whom is the thing in the upper right corner?

[Caihn]

 Easy : Wilson

[Ieldra]

LOL. I almost forgot that gif video exists. Wilson's ear, to be accurate.

[jtav]

I know I'm strange, but that's the moment I really fell in love with her. I like Lazarus Station Miranda. I wanted more Lazarus Station Miranda. I find myself agreeing with her detractors. She's cold. She's ruthless. I don't think she's a good person. The difference is that I don't think these are bad things from a character standpoint. I'm also willing to grant her her virtues: her competence, dedication, and fierce loyalty to things she cares about being chief among them. She's always on the tipping point between hero and villain for me.

[Jebel Krong]

yeah i like moral ambiguity in characters - no-one is "good" or, generally, "evil" in real-life, everyone is shades of grey, and anyone in Miranda's position would definitely be grey.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LOL. I almost forgot that gif video exists. Wilson's ear, to be accurate.

it's also the only time she has "red-eye" from reflections, in the game, that I remember.

[Pwnisher]

I think that Miranda is definately a better squadmate to have in your team than Jack. Just look at the bonuses for a fully maxed-out skill class Miranda, she can either give your squad more health or more weapon damage and even if you choose one you still get a little more of the other. Jack's maxed-out skill class only empowers her more and her bonuses don't affect the squad's health or weapons.

[Caihn]

jtav wrote...

I know I'm strange, but that's the moment I really fell in love with her. I like Lazarus Station Miranda. I wanted more Lazarus Station Miranda. I find myself agreeing with her detractors. She's cold. She's ruthless. I don't think she's a good person. The difference is that I don't think these are bad things from a character standpoint. I'm also willing to grant her her virtues: her competence, dedication, and fierce loyalty to things she cares about being chief among them. She's always on the tipping point between hero and villain for me.

The Lazarus Station Miranda is dead.
I liked this Miranda, but, to me, the new Miranda is far more interesting.

Modifié par Yannkee, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:08 .

[jtav]

I think Miranda and Jack are both great characters and I'd hate to lose either. Miranda complements my play style better, so she sees more use. My main criticism of Jack is her romance. Her, ah, relationship with Miranda is one of my favorite things. They bear some of the same emotional scars but reacted to them very differently.

[Giggles_Manically]

Miranda fits my Infiltrator play throughs best.



I tried to use her on my Engineer run, but you cant stop an Engineer, Tali, and Legion combo there.

It is wierd though that Miranda and Jacob switch personalities once they get on the Normandy though.

[Caihn]

Jack bother me so much that in my next playthrough, she will stay in her quarters until the suicide mission and her death. I won't do her loyalty mission any more.

[jtav]

I don't think that Miranda is dead. She'll always move quickly and efficiently to remove a threat. I also think that if she becomes warm and cheerful to everyone, then she isn't Miranda. If she becomes a Paragon, then I'm out of here. What has, hopefully, changed is that she's begun to see she has some intrinsic value and she's begun creating a true family through her sister and certain members of the crew. She's stopped defining herself by her association with Cerberus and should spend some time next game figuring out who she is.

[Jebel Krong]

Yannkee wrote...

Jack bother me so much that in my next playthrough, she will stay in her quarters until the suicide mission and her death. I won't do her loyalty mission any more.

apart from the bits where she talks or you have to talk to her, it's quite a good one, and very illuminating of Cerberus (whatever they may say otherwise).

Miranda is easily the best team-mate to have in most situations with warp and overload plus squad bonuses. They should keep her moral ambiguity for mass effect 3, definitely - as jtav says: she is one of the few that straddles paragon/renegade constantly, and that shouldn't change.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:29 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

jtav wrote...

I know I'm strange, but that's the moment I really fell in love with her. I like Lazarus Station Miranda. I wanted more Lazarus Station Miranda. I find myself agreeing with her detractors. She's cold. She's ruthless. I don't think she's a good person. The difference is that I don't think these are bad things from a character standpoint. I'm also willing to grant her her virtues: her competence, dedication, and fierce loyalty to things she cares about being chief among them. She's always on the tipping point between hero and villain for me.

The Lazarus Station Miranda is dead.
I liked this Miranda, but, to me, the new Miranda is far more interesting.

That would be a very sad thing. For me, Miranda was always one, except to herself in her own mind. What she expresses after her loyalty mission was hidden within her at Lazarus Station, and the cold and ruthless Miranda is still present after the Collector base mission. And I wouldn't have it any other way, a  Miranda who lost her ruthless streak wouldn't be the Miranda I've come to like, as would one who'd not care any more about her sister.

As for being a "good person" or not, or varying between hero and villain, I don't think in those categories. IMO, no one actually ever *is* good or evil. Single acts may have those qualities, but they never describe a person except in the most extreme cases. Miranda is one of the best examples.

jtav wrote...

I don't think that Miranda is dead. She'll always move quickly and efficiently to remove a threat. I also think that if she becomes warm and cheerful to everyone, then she isn't Miranda. If she becomes a Paragon, then I'm out of here.

QFT.

What has, hopefully, changed is that she's begun to see she has some intrinsic value and she's begun creating a true family through her sister and certain members of the crew. She's stopped defining herself by her association with Cerberus and should spend some time next game figuring out who she is.

I hope she still does that even if Shepard keeps the base. Eventually, I'd like to severe my association with TIM; but the end of ME2 is not that time. I hope Miranda won't lose character development opportunities because of that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:34 .

[jtav]

I think I was too reductive. You can't classify people as good or evil. What I mean is that many of the things that I believe Miranda has done or would do are things I consider profoundly immoral. For instance, I think Miranda would torture, but I think torture is an intrinsic evil. At the same time, her willingness to sacrifice almost anything for her sister speaks well of her, as does her tendency to drive herself even harder than she drives everyone else. She willing to give her life for the mission, just as she expects everyone else to.

[Caihn]

@Ieldra & Jtav

Exactly the reaction I expected from you.

I think I could find these arguments a hundred times in the thread.

But I wasn't trying to convice you. This is my opinion : to me Miranda has changed more than you could ever admit.



oh, and I never said she will become a Paragon.



When I said the lazarus project miranda was dead, it was a way to show that a part of her a personality disapeared, not her whole personality. People can change a lot and remain the same person.



Personnaly, I don't have ooc issues with Miranda. So I think my interpretation of the character is not far from Bioware writers one.

[fongiel24]

From a gameplay perspective I find Jack to be pretty useless on the higher difficulties due to neither of her powers being of any use on protected enemies. I think Grunt plays the bruiser-vanguard role far better than her due to his superior toughness, weapons loadout, inferno ammo, and melee. I don't think I've ever taken Jack on any missions other than her loyalty mission for that reason.

Regarding Miranda's alignment, I think she's quite clearly a Renegade based on her actions. The example that stands out most in my mind is in the Collector Base when she tells Shepard the team can't afford to spare anyone to escort the crew back. When it comes to the mission, Miranda won't let anything get in the way and for her, the most direct path is always the one she'll go for. That said, I don't think Renegade necessarily equals Evil. Miranda's actions are all driven by her desire to make the galaxy a "better" place. She's not in it for the power, or the money, or the influence. She's in it because she actually believes TIM's line about Cerberus looking out for human interests. I think Miranda could be an excellent example of the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" - she's done some morally questionable things because she was able to rationalize that they were necessary, the ends justifies the means, so to speak.

[Ieldra]

Exactly that is why I said the ruthless Miranda is still present at the end of the game, though it's tempered by her giving her emotions more room than before. What she gradually loses is her loyalty to TIM, switching to Shepard as the one who gives her a purpose (I hope she'll find one of her own in ME3, and independently from the romance).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:13 .

[jtav]

Even before that she's willing to delay the suicide mission and let the crew die if everyone is not loyal. It's not the feel-good option, but it does give you a better chance of survival. That is what I don't want her to lose in ME3. If she does, I'm killing her in the suicide mission myself.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Even before that she's willing to delay the suicide mission and let the crew die if everyone is not loyal. It's not the feel-good option, but it does give you a better chance of survival. That is what I don't want her to lose in ME3. If she does, I'm killing her in the suicide mission myself.

Uh....aren't you getting a bit extreme here?

[Ieldra]

@Yannkee:

We all want a happy ending for Miranda, and if romanced, for Miranda and Shepard. Other than that, we're all living in different ME universes, and we disagree on how to get there, what a happy ending actually entails and so on. That's as it should be, no need to be offended.

[jtav]

You think? I mean that, if the character stops being the character I know and love--if she suffers character derailment--then I don't want her in ME3. Easiest way to do that is kill her. And then I'll devoye myself to my stories. It would have to be severe derailment for me to replay to specifically kill her off.

Modifié par jtav, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Caihn]

@fongiel

To me, during me2, Miranda has become a paragade.

That's why I think a renagade shepard is the worst choice for her romance. I think, the paragade fit perfectly, and the Paragon is very interesting because of the tension between them at the beginig, becoming respect and trust at the end.

[Caihn]

@Ieldra

I'm not offended, I only express my opinion.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
You think? I mean that, if the character stops being the character I know and love--if she suffers character derailment--then I don't want her in ME3. Easiest way to do that is kill her.

Perhaps it's just I don't want to think about that possibility. Killing anyone on the suicide mission already feels bad enough because it feels contrived. I don't think I could do it to Miranda - the impression of derailment, after all, always has a subjective component.

Anyway, I'm not much for pessimism, I'd rather think about the kind of interesting things Miranda could do in ME3. Given Bioware had the guts to let an LI sever her relationship in DAO, I don't think we've too much to fear in character derailment. Not that I want, or expect, that particular scenario in ME3.