15168 réponses à ce sujet

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Exactly that is why I said the ruthless Miranda is still present at the end of the game, though it's tempered by her giving her emotions more room than before. What she gradually loses is her loyalty to TIM, switching to Shepard as the one who gives her a purpose (I hope she'll find one of her own in ME3, and independently from the romance).

I don't think Miranda lacks a purpose. She wants to use her enhanced abilities for something bigger than herself. She also wants to be challenged, have her limits pushed, and constantly work on new things. She strikes me as the type of person who would get bored very quickly but nevertheless can suppress that boredom to get a job done. TIM and Cerberus just give her the resources and opportunities to do all that. If it wasn't Cerberus, I think she would have found someone else. If she quits Cerberus at the end of ME2, she'll have to turn to Shepard to provide those resources and opportunities.

Yannkee wrote...

@fongiel
To me, during me2, Miranda has become a paragade. That's why I think a renagade shepard is the worst choice for her romance. I think, the paragade fit perfectly, and the Paragon is very interesting because of the tension between them at the beginig, becoming respect and trust at the end.

Nothing about Miranda really screams paragon or paragade to me. She seems so utterly pragmatic in everything she does and I really don't get the sense that she operates by any kind of moral code other than "get the job done as quickly and efficiently as possible". She's not bloodthirsty and she's basically a decent person, but she won't let any antiquated notions of morality or honour to get in the way of her mission.

The only occasion I remember her deviating from this thinking is in the Collector Base, when she raises moral objections to keeping it - and that occasion seemed strangely OOC to myself and others.

Modifié par fongiel24, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
I don't think Miranda lacks a purpose. She wants to use her enhanced abilities for something bigger than herself. She also wants to be challenged, have her limits pushed, and constantly work on new things. She strikes me as the type of person who would get bored very quickly but nevertheless can suppress that boredom to get a job done. TIM and Cerberus just give her the resources and opportunities to do all that. If it wasn't Cerberus, I think she would have found someone else. If she quits Cerberus at the end of ME2, she'll have to turn to Shepard to provide those resources and opportunities.

Exactly what I said She wants to use her abilities for something bigger than herself, but let others set that something. So far she's been a follower of a cause, not one with a cause of her own. That's what I'd like to see changed in ME3, for instance by providing a different vision for "humanity's advancement" than TIM does.

[Caihn]

fongiel24 wrote... 

The only occasion I remember her deviating from this thinking is in the Collector Base, when she raises moral objections to keeping it - and that occasion seemed strangely OOC to myself and others.

What you think OOC is totally IC to myself and others.
The debate is pointless, I know.
But, I can understand that Miranda can be interpreted in different ways. Something I'm not sure everyone here can understand.

[jtav]

Oh, I don't consider it a likely scenario. But when people start talking about her losing certain elements of her personality, I get paranoid. As for interesting scenarios, I don't think we'll start with Miranda, even if she's recruitable. If she resigned, she might be in the same situation Grayson was and on the run for her life. If she didn't she might have become miserable now that she no longer believes in Cerberus and TIM has reassigned her in Shepard's absence. Either way, you can help her somehow, defeating TIM's goons or helping her with her current mission. I wouldn't mind it if she was only a temporary team mate like Liara as long as she got a similar ending.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Exactly what I said She wants to use her abilities for something bigger than herself, but let others set that something. So far she's been a follower of a cause, not one with a cause of her own. That's what I'd like to see changed in ME3, for instance by providing a different vision for "humanity's advancement" than TIM does.

I guess I'm just uncomfortable with the way you worded things. I really dislike the idea of Miranda being anyone's pawn. At the beginning of ME2 (and maybe even at the end), I see her purpose as two-fold:
i) To protect and advance humanity in a galaxy she sees as cruel, callous, and hostile, due to her personal experiences with it. 
ii) To resolve her own existentionalist issues through purpose i). I doubt Miranda is religious, but she seems to struggle with many of the same issues religions attempt to answer - Why am I here? What is my purpose on this plane? What is the meaning of my life? The difference is that Miranda seeks to find her answers through her own actions, rather than from multi-millenia old religious holy books.

She joins Cerberus not because she was shopping for a cause and found one she liked, but because their goals and ultimate mission seem to mesh most closely with her own. That's why when TIM turns out not to be who she thought he was, she so readily ditches Cerberus despite her earlier fanatical loyalty. Her loyalty was never to the organization itself, but rather to the ideals and goals she feels they share with her.

I doubt this opinion will be very popular in this thread, but if she stays with Shepard in ME3 as a squadmate, I would venture that it would be because of his mission just as much as any sense of affection or personal loyalty towards him as a person. His mission of stopping the Reapers is straight-forward and clear, and provides a concrete goal rather than a vague ideal like Cerberus' "advance the interests of humanity" mission statement. 

Modifié par fongiel24, 21 septembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[jtav]

I agree with you fongiel. If she stays, it will be because of the mission. Stopping the Reapers is the very definition of the greater good she sought to serve. I doubt being the XO of a frigate would be enough to satisfy her and provide a challenge under normal circumstances. Taking over Cerberus could provide it. Helping Liara could provide it. Note that this doesn't preclude the romance. Not every couple works together.

[Ieldra]

You know, fongiel, the way you put it makes a lot of sense, and I tend in the same direction except for one thing: her self-perception as "nothing more than a tool" clashes with it somewhat, suggesting there's someone to wield her as a tool, i.e. she not only needs a cause, but someone who embodies that cause for her. Ultimately, I think this will, in turn, clash with her intelligence, but so far it's a problem to be resolved.

Regarding her reasons for switching to Shepard, it's very plausible to me that the romance is an added bonus rather than the reason for it. If not romanced: Shepard is an inspiring leader, but someone like Miranda would need arguments as well to switch loyalty, she's not one to follow "hold the line" speeches just because they sound impressive. I think you are quite correct.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 septembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You know, fongiel, the way you put it makes a lot of sense, and I tend in the same direction except for one thing: her self-perception as "nothing more than a tool" clashes with it somewhat, suggesting there's someone to wield her as a tool, i.e. she not only needs a cause, but someone who embodies that cause for her. Ultimately, I think this will, in turn, clash with her intelligence, but so far it's a problem to be resolved.

Regarding her reasons for switching to Shepard, it's very plausible to me that the romance is an added bonus rather than the reason for it. If not romanced: Shepard is an inspiring leader, but someone like Miranda would need arguments as well to switch loyalty, she's not one to follow "hold the line" speeches just because they sound impressive. I think you are quite correct.

The reason I don't entirely buy into the "Miranda thinks of herself as just a pawn" theory is that it's Shepard who mentions it, not Miranda. Miranda only mentions that she feels she has a purpose working with Cerberus. Her response to Shepard's assertion that she thinks of herself as a tool is "Maybe. I like to know where I fit in the world. It helps me find meaning in how I was created.". She might appear to act like a tool for Cerberus, but I don't think she necessarily thinks of herself in that way. In some ways, she's kind of like Jacob in that she wants to go out there and make a difference, but her vision is too vague and she lacks resources, thus necessitating Cerberus or Shepard to provide resources and concrete direction. I'm not sure she needs TIM or Shepard to serve as figureheads for her to rally behind though.

Does anybody else think Miranda suffers from somewhat of a martyr complex? She seems to try quite hard to deprive herself of good things in life like companionship and family, instead choosing to pursue an ultimately thankless job with a high chance of a violent death. It's like she's punishing herself for the sins of her father and she believes she deserves to die alone and forgotten. 

[jtav]

Oh, I think she definitely has a martyr complex. She doesn't think she's fut for normal human happiness. She's not "one of us." The best she can hope for is to fight and die in the service of a greater good and do her best to give her sister the happy ending she herself will never see.

[Caihn]

Miranda deserves to be happy and to be loved, fortunately Shepard is here for her, and cares about her.

 

Modifié par Yannkee, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:40 .

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
Does anybody else think Miranda suffers from somewhat of a martyr complex? She seems to try quite hard to deprive herself of good things in life like companionship and family, instead choosing to pursue an ultimately thankless job with a high chance of a violent death. It's like she's punishing herself for the sins of her father and she believes she deserves to die alone and forgotten.

No, that's taking it the wrong way IMO.
(1) I don't think she thinks she deserves to die alone and forgotten, the problem is rather than she can't trust people, usually with good reason so it's not easy to recognize those she can trust.
(2) I don't think a concept like "sin" makes sense to her.
(3) I don't think she tries to deprive herself of the good things in life. What I rather see is a conflict between her self-expectation to excel in everything on one hand, and the wish to be a "normal" human on the other. That both might be compatible doesn't seem to occur to her - for which her father might be to blame.
(4) She's making it possible for her sister to lead a normal life, but not as a counterexample for what her father did, but because she loves Oriana.

Generally, I find it very important not to make too much of her self-esteem issues. She's competent and whatever's her problem hasn't so far affected her that much, except in private conversations with Shepard. I definitely don't see anything that could be described as a "martyr complex". No.

@jtav:
That she doesn't perceive herself as "one of us" does not imply that she thinks she doesn't deserve happiness. I think she hopes for a happy ending but doesn't dare believe in it yet.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[ComTrav]

Yannkee wrote...

jtav wrote...

I know I'm strange, but that's the moment I really fell in love with her. I like Lazarus Station Miranda. I wanted more Lazarus Station Miranda. I find myself agreeing with her detractors. She's cold. She's ruthless. I don't think she's a good person. The difference is that I don't think these are bad things from a character standpoint. I'm also willing to grant her her virtues: her competence, dedication, and fierce loyalty to things she cares about being chief among them. She's always on the tipping point between hero and villain for me.

The Lazarus Station Miranda is dead.
I liked this Miranda, but, to me, the new Miranda is far more interesting.

I dunno, part of what makes games as a storytelling medium so compelling IMO is that the player has the chance to direct character development to a certain degree. Although inevitably Miranda softens a bit during her arc, she definitely seems more cold and ruthless going full Renegade then goind full Paragon. (Although she doesn't have any 'hardening' or 'softening' options like some characters in Bioware games.)

It does entail a little willing suspension of disbelief, though, to think that the player character is such a forceful and charismatic personality that all the NPCs will always agree with them.

[ComTrav]

Ieldra2 wrote...



Generally, I find it very important not to make too much of her self-esteem issues. She's competent and whatever's her problem hasn't so far affected her that much, except in private conversations with Shepard. I definitely don't see anything that could be described as a "martyr complex". No.

I kinda want to pull this point out and comment on it. I've always felt that Miranda's self-doubt was not evident to most people or dominating her life, but they were intensely personal. That's part of what makers her confession to Shepard so powerful, IMO--"everyone thinks I'm great except me."

After all, everyone (especially on the Normandy!) has SOME issues, and most people are able to function with them most of the time, but being able to share such things is an aspect of emotional intimacy.

[Axestone]

Tali'Zorah vas Neema 27%(73 votes)

Miranda Lawson 2%(5 votes)

*facepalm*

It is insulting...

[Elyvern]

Wow....just a few days' absence and this thread just runs. Still overseas, still no luxury to explore each reply in detail.

@Ieldra - just thought of something to add to the FAQ. Alot of people in other threads seem to concretely link Miranda's epartner transcripts as definitive reason that she wants a child. Maybe a paragraph to debunk this theory?

Talking about life-changing decisions, I've always wondered when TIM took all of Cerberus and broke away from the alliance 2 years ago, what was Miranda's state of mind regarding it. I strongly doubt it was attributed to TIM's charismatic personality, although that would definitely play a part. As far as we know anyway, I can see 3 life-changing moments that she initiated: saving herself and Oriana from her father's machinations, choosing to betray TIM if you destroy the base, and the one least explored -- following TIM's direction and choosing to go rogue with Cerberus, despite knowing she would be labelled a pariah, an alliance traitor and taking on the stigma of being part of a terrorist group. She has had extensive contacts in the Alliance, ME: Galaxy has established that, possibly even friends from that time of her life. What was so compelling about Cerberus going rogue that she would opt for the difficult way out? Will be interesting to hear anyone's thoughts about it.

Going out of the loop again, see ya'll again soon hopefully.

Modifié par Elyvern, 22 septembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[Arijharn]

I'm not so sure that Cerberus has broken with the Alliance in all honesty. I think I'm wishing for this way too much though for the sake of an interesting narrative but to me it would seem that if Cerberus is as serious about protecting humanity then they would require at least humanity to shield themselves from others (like the Turian's!)



Or maybe she doesn't care as much, trusting as she does in the Illusive Man. On the Collector Ship when EDI tells you that it's impossible for TIM not to know that it was a trap and you have the option of saying words to the effect of: "That double crossing bastard!" Miranda's response was: "No, that can't be right. The Illusive Man wouldn't do that... he just wouldn't!"



Despite what is shown in game, I don't think Cerberus' existence is particularly public knowledge and judging by the fact that not even Niket knew she was with Cerberus then it strikes me as being quite likely that at least some or most of her other contacts wouldn't either. For those people I guess it really depends on what sort of contacts they are is how Miranda portrays herself to them.



In short; I think she believes in Cerberus more than she believes in the Alliance, so I don't think the change (to use your argument) has really effected her at all.

[t3HPrO]

I honestly don't understand why a Miranda whose lost most of her ruthless streak wouldn't be attractive. It's character dev, and it's the reason why most of us fell in love with her anyways. And how Miranda will be like in ME3 will be determined by your Shep. If you were renegade, she'd still be ruthless, but a paragon/paragade would make her lose most/some of her ruthless streak and more caring to people. And jtav, I don't see any logic as to why you'd kill Miranda if she lost her ruthless streak. That's just off the handle nuts. A caring Miranda is a great Miranda, especially on the character dev front.



And Miranda will return as a full fledged squaddie in ME3 because she's content to work as Shepards 2IC given that Shep is busy trying to defeat the reapers, and Miranda knows that it's a great calling which she will gladly respond to. Her taking over Cerberus isn't likely as she still feels she can't lead as well as shepard, who has the 'fire'. Thus, she would prefer to follow shepard. And the romance would be a bonus in this case. Despite her hiding from the fact for decades, the fact remains that she's a lonely woman who's yearning for love and affirmation she never got from her father. And shepard provides that love and affirmation she craves, so she would definitely stick with shep as he/she(in my case) is her 'feel good center'.

[t3HPrO]

@ComTrav

Shepards a 'Jesus personality' in this case, given that he/she has a direct impact on NPC character dev, and he's the savior of the galaxy and he resolves everyone's problems while saving the galaxy.

[LuxDragon]

I have to agree with t3HPrO.

Miranda was incrediably cold in the beginning. Her ruthless streak eased up as the game continued and she's much more approachable after you help her out with her sis.

Even Kasumi notes how much she's smiling after you romance her, which means she never or rarely smiled to begin with.

I'm not saying she'll have a 180 degree turnaround in personality, just a different evolution of her character. More paragade than renegade in Shepard terms.

Also: a weird thought popped into my head after playing GTA IV. What if she wasn't looking for a fling, but using iPartners to look for a target and the only information she had was the medical records? Maybe one of her father's agents on Illium that was looking for Oriana and now she needed to tie up that loose end? Just a stray thought.

Modifié par LuxDragon, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[t3HPrO]

@LuxDragon

Subbed and ++repped. And your thought might be possible...if a little far fetched. And I'm lovig your novelisation! Keep it up!

[Arijharn]

LuxDragon wrote...

Also: a weird thought popped into my head after playing GTA IV. What if she wasn't looking for a fling, but using iPartners to look for a target and the only information she had was the medical records? Maybe one of her father's agents on Illium that was looking for Oriana and now she needed to tie up that loose end? Just a stray thought.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, what sort of 'target'? As in, assassination? Isn't that overly complicated? What would make her think that someone specifically would use iPartners in the first place? I don't think you're necessarily wrong, I just think it's incredibly unlikely.

[LuxDragon]

Like I said, it came from GTA IV, which is far-fetched to begin with. Still, considering her familiarity with weaponry, assassinations aren't far-fetched for her. Either that, or she's actually the type to have sex during a mission, either to ressurect Shepard or in the course of saving the galaxy.

[snfonseka]

Axestone wrote...

Tali'Zorah vas Neema 27%(73 votes)

Miranda Lawson 2%(5 votes)

*facepalm*
It is insulting...

[Caihn]

snfonseka wrote...

Axestone wrote...

Tali'Zorah vas Neema 27%(73 votes)

Miranda Lawson 2%(5 votes)

*facepalm*
It is insulting...

When I said most of Miranda's fan base left the forum, I was not joking.