15168 réponses à ce sujet

[fongiel24]

t3HPrO wrote...

I honestly don't understand why a Miranda whose lost most of her ruthless streak wouldn't be attractive. It's character dev, and it's the reason why most of us fell in love with her anyways. And how Miranda will be like in ME3 will be determined by your Shep. If you were renegade, she'd still be ruthless, but a paragon/paragade would make her lose most/some of her ruthless streak and more caring to people. And jtav, I don't see any logic as to why you'd kill Miranda if she lost her ruthless streak. That's just off the handle nuts. A caring Miranda is a great Miranda, especially on the character dev front.

Full Paragon Miranda isn't Miranda anymore. Without her moral ambiguity and occasional streak of ruthless pragmatism, you just have another generic LI with a perfect body. It also requires us to believe Miranda suddenly underwent a complete personality change in the span of a few months, after she's been operating the same way for 35+ years. Some character development is fine, but people don't generally completely change their views and outlook on life just because they met someone special.

And Miranda will return as a full fledged squaddie in ME3 because she's content to work as Shepards 2IC given that Shep is busy trying to defeat the reapers, and Miranda knows that it's a great calling which she will gladly respond to. Her taking over Cerberus isn't likely as she still feels she can't lead as well as shepard, who has the 'fire'. Thus, she would prefer to follow shepard. And the romance would be a bonus in this case. Despite her hiding from the fact for decades, the fact remains that she's a lonely woman who's yearning for love and affirmation she never got from her father. And shepard provides that love and affirmation she craves, so she would definitely stick with shep as he/she(in my case) is her 'feel good center'.

I have big problems with a lot of this. First, Miranda doesn't need to have Shepard's "fire" to take over Cerberus. TIM doesn't lead from the front like Cerberus does and neither would Miranda. The leader of Cerberus is a mysterious figure giving orders from on high like a god, not a 22nd century version William Wallace. There's many types of leadership - Shepard has the charisma to practice a more personal model but Miranda has the track record and competency to use a more authoritarian model. Shepard might be a better leader, but that doesn't mean Miranda is completely bereft of leadership skills. Miranda would simply be coordinating operations and determining the overall direction and goals of a reformed Cerberus. She can recruit veteran leaders for the fiery stuff.
Second, the idea that Miranda is just another lonely damsel-in-distress waiting for the big hero to come in, sweep her off her feet, and save her from her emotional problems and daddy issues actually makes me want to throw up. She obviously cares about Shepard, but she doesn't need him. She won't fall apart without him and if something happens to him, I'm sure she'll survive and find a way to cope. His love and affection are appreciated and maybe even cherished, but she definitely doesn't need nor yearn for his affirmation like some lovesick, clingy teenager who reads too many romance novels. Miranda is a strong, independent, capable woman who's very aware of her considerable gifts and confident in what she's accomplished and what she's capable of, even if she's not completely comfortable with her origins.

Modifié par fongiel24, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:17 .

[Pacifien]

You can discuss your distaste for other characters all you want in the forums, but you are not allowed to insult the other fanbases. Reacquaint yourselves with the site rules.

[Edit: That's totally not directed at fongiel24 but to a post I had deleted for being insulting to other fanbases. Sorry, fongiel!]

Modifié par Pacifien, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[Arijharn]

fongiel, while I agree with most of what you said, the simple fact that Shephard being Shephard and being capable of doing Shephardesque things makes me think that he'd definitely be able to change the personality of Miranda in some ways. I mean, the precedent has well and truly been set, especially by BioWare.



Personally I think 'Ice Queen' Miranda is just not interesting for the same reason as finding Jack usually pretty boring (I just can not bring myself to 'romance' that feral) so while I thought Shephard cracking through her thick ice armour was perhaps too quick, I'm actually pretty glad it happened.

[Caihn]

t3HPrO wrote...

I honestly don't understand why a Miranda whose lost most of her ruthless streak wouldn't be attractive. It's character dev, and it's the reason why most of us fell in love with her anyways. And how Miranda will be like in ME3 will be determined by your Shep. If you were renegade, she'd still be ruthless, but a paragon/paragade would make her lose most/some of her ruthless streak and more caring to people. And jtav, I don't see any logic as to why you'd kill Miranda if she lost her ruthless streak. That's just off the handle nuts. A caring Miranda is a great Miranda, especially on the character dev front.

I agree, but I don't think she will be fully renegade anymore, even with a renegade shepard. I also don't think she will become a full paragon either, or she would need a longer and well written character development.
My opinion is that shepard has changed her, but she also has her own personality. Your shepard alignment can still influence Miranda, but I think she will remain paragade.

And Miranda will return as a full fledged squaddie in ME3 because she's content to work as Shepards 2IC given that Shep is busy trying to defeat the reapers, and Miranda knows that it's a great calling which she will gladly respond to. Her taking over Cerberus isn't likely as she still feels she can't lead as well as shepard, who has the 'fire'. Thus, she would prefer to follow shepard. And the romance would be a bonus in this case. Despite her hiding from the fact for decades, the fact remains that she's a lonely woman who's yearning for love and affirmation she never got from her father. And shepard provides that love and affirmation she craves, so she would definitely stick with shep as he/she(in my case) is her 'feel good center'.

I agree about shepard providing the love she never had.
But I think she can also take over Cerberus, maybe with Shepard's help. She's a high rank and competent operative, she may have not the same abilities to lead people like shepard, but she definitively can lead an organisation like Cerberus.
I expect her to take over cerberus before ME3, or at the begining of the game. Then she would join shepard to kick reapers ass.

[Jebel Krong]

downtime for 7 hours is a bummer when i'm at work during it....

anyway:

cr: here

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 22 septembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[Prudii Aden]

Good find Jebel. Very nice - although I suspect both characters would get on eventually - even if their respective other halves don't...

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Talking about life-changing decisions, I've always wondered when TIM took all of Cerberus and broke away from the alliance 2 years ago, what was Miranda's state of mind regarding it. I strongly doubt it was attributed to TIM's charismatic personality, although that would definitely play a part. As far as we know anyway, I can see 3 life-changing moments that she initiated: saving herself and Oriana from her father's machinations, choosing to betray TIM if you destroy the base, and the one least explored -- following TIM's direction and choosing to go rogue with Cerberus, despite knowing she would be labelled a pariah, an alliance traitor and taking on the stigma of being part of a terrorist group. She has had extensive contacts in the Alliance, ME: Galaxy has established that, possibly even friends from that time of her life. What was so compelling about Cerberus going rogue that she would opt for the difficult way out? Will be interesting to hear anyone's thoughts about it.

Where is it said that Cerberus went rogue two years ago? To me, it looks more like TIM always had his own agenda, and the Alliance just occasionally worked together with them when it suited their purpose, which hasn't happened lately, at least not in the open, because the political fallout from the Council would counteract any advantages. It's also possible that Cerberus going rogue was always a smokescreen. Anyway, I don't think Miranda ever regarded herself as an Alliance operative.

[Jebel Krong]

personally i never got the impression Cerberus was connected with the Alliance a la STG-Salarians or Asari Commandos to the Asari Government, though i'm sure there must have been collusion at some points (you don't get as powerful as Cerberus completely independently).

[Ieldra]

Some comments about Miranda's personality and possible changes thereof:

There are various aspects often thrown together in the debate on the last few pages. I'd like to separate them again because they don't necessarily belong together:

(1) Colder vs. warmer Miranda
The game shows us Miranda warming up to Shepard. We can interpret Kasumi's comment that she's often smiling at work as saying she now has a bit of happiness in her life. While that may not necessarily lessen her detached attitude to other people (meaning she doesn't let other people than Shepard and her sister get close to her), I consider it likely that she'll be more friendly to people in general. This type of personality change is possibly linked to the romance.

(2) Loyalty to Cerberus vs. loyalty to Shepard.
At the end of the game, Shepard has acquired Miranda's loyalty from Cerberus, regardless of any romance. If Shepard's working with TIM, the only difference is she needn't resign. Since she is prepared to follow Shepard whatever his decision, even if she doesn't agree with it, I conclude that this loyalty shift is independent from any possible alignment shift.

(3) The romance and what follows from it....or not.
Miranda let Shepard come close enough to her to fall in love with him. That does not mean that her whole life now is now centered on him. She has competence independent from him, and is resilient enough to have survived years of emotional abuse. She wants Shepard, but doesn't need him. That strength she has, in spite of what she thinks about herself occasionally, is what I always found intriguing about her. I'd like to stress that her loyalty shift (see (2)) is not tied to the romance, and I consider the idea that she follows Shepard's lead in a decision affecting all of humanity simply because she loves him OOC. She does love him, but she hasn't given away her intelligence and strength of personality.

(4) Miranda's "alignment" shift
Really, is there any? Throughout the game, we see her supporting/promoting Renegade decisions, but she also reacts to the Teltin facility in a way that suggests she doesn't support it. Also, if she supported it she wouldn't need to deny it as a rogue cell. So she's not *completely* Renegade. Late in the game, the decisions Miranda promotes during the suicide mission, all decisions except the decision about the base (which I won't go into yet again), it's clear that she's still *mostly* Renegade.
So why the misperception? I think that many people confuse her personality shift from colder to warmer with an "alignment" shift. The two, however, are not necessarily connected. You can be compassionate, but still act against your empathy out of a perceived necessity. You can also be cold and unapproachable in personality while acting 100% Paragon. Miranda does become considerably warmer, at least to Shepard and possibly also to others, but her consequentialist morality stays mostly the same. If you stretch things, you could say she's "balanced", but I still see the Renegade aspect as a bit stronger.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:11 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Ieldra can I just say: you are an ardent supporter of Miranda... you have been on this thread for a long time and I respect and admire your fealty to Miranda's boobs, though I am sure it does not end there.

I also support her boobs 100% ... probs more.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:30 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Where is it said that Cerberus went rogue two years ago? To me, it looks more like TIM always had his own agenda, and the Alliance just occasionally worked together with them when it suited their purpose, which hasn't happened lately, at least not in the open, because the political fallout from the Council would counteract any advantages. It's also possible that Cerberus going rogue was always a smokescreen. Anyway, I don't think Miranda ever regarded herself as an Alliance operative.

In ME1, at the start of the fiasco with Admiral Kohoku. Basically, Cerberus went rogue either shortly before the events in ME1 or during the game. In ME: Galaxy, I believe she was identified as an alliance operative, which meant her decision to follow TIM and leave the Alliance is a recent thing.

I suppose it's hard to determine Miranda's original allegiance because we simply don't have enough information about how Cerberus is structured. The line where she says "typical alliance attitude" seems to suggest a certain cynicism about alliance modus operandi. The impression I seem to get though is to a certain extent, both she and Jacob are with Cerberus because there are no better alternatives. She talks with distaste about xenophobes flocking to join Cerberus' ranks, and the part where she said she envied Mordin seemed to suggest that she finds most of her colleagues in Cerberus not able to match her intellectually. Both suggest a certain acceptance of lesser evils.

 

[Arijharn]

Elyvern wrote...

In ME1, at the start of the fiasco with Admiral Kohoku. Basically, Cerberus went rogue either shortly before the events in ME1 or during the game. In ME: Galaxy, I believe she was identified as an alliance operative, which meant her decision to follow TIM and leave the Alliance is a recent thing.

 

I haven't played Galaxy so forgive me if I sound like a retard, but if Miranda was working for Cerberus even back then, why would she admit it to Jacob at about's their first meeting?

Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that she'd only reveal that information when she tries to actively recruit Jacob and prior to this give a cover?

Or does Jacob know he's working for Cerberus at the start of the game?

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Where is it said that Cerberus went rogue two years ago? To me, it looks more like TIM always had his own agenda, and the Alliance just occasionally worked together with them when it suited their purpose, which hasn't happened lately, at least not in the open, because the political fallout from the Council would counteract any advantages. It's also possible that Cerberus going rogue was always a smokescreen. Anyway, I don't think Miranda ever regarded herself as an Alliance operative.

In ME1, at the start of the fiasco with Admiral Kohoku. Basically, Cerberus went rogue either shortly before the events in ME1 or during the game. In ME: Galaxy, I believe she was identified as an alliance operative, which meant her decision to follow TIM and leave the Alliance is a recent thing.

In ME1, it only becomes clear that Cerberus *is* rogue, nothing's been said about when they might have started to go their own way. I haven't played ME:Galaxy, but from what I read on the wiki she's nowhere referred to as being an Alliance operative.

I suppose it's hard to determine Miranda's original allegiance because we simply don't have enough information about how Cerberus is structured. The line where she says "typical alliance attitude" seems to suggest a certain cynicism about alliance modus operandi. The impression I seem to get though is to a certain extent, both she and Jacob are with Cerberus because there are no better alternatives. She talks with distaste about xenophobes flocking to join Cerberus' ranks, and the part where she said she envied Mordin seemed to suggest that she finds most of her colleagues in Cerberus not able to match her intellectually. Both suggest a certain acceptance of lesser evils.

Cerberus protected her and her sister when she ran away from her father, which makes this allegiance a very old one. This might also have influenced her decision to stay with them when they went rogue, but consdering the line you quoted I don't think it was the deciding factor. 

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

In ME1, at the start of the fiasco with Admiral Kohoku. Basically, Cerberus went rogue either shortly before the events in ME1 or during the game. In ME: Galaxy, I believe she was identified as an alliance operative, which meant her decision to follow TIM and leave the Alliance is a recent thing.

I suppose it's hard to determine Miranda's original allegiance because we simply don't have enough information about how Cerberus is structured. The line where she says "typical alliance attitude" seems to suggest a certain cynicism about alliance modus operandi. The impression I seem to get though is to a certain extent, both she and Jacob are with Cerberus because there are no better alternatives. She talks with distaste about xenophobes flocking to join Cerberus' ranks, and the part where she said she envied Mordin seemed to suggest that she finds most of her colleagues in Cerberus not able to match her intellectually. Both suggest a certain acceptance of lesser evils.

 

I have my own theory about Cerberus and its "rogue" status (I think I've voiced it in a discussion group before). As of 2185, I have no doubt that Cerberus has gone completely rogue and has no official ties to the Alliance (having high ranking Alliance officials in their pocket doesn't count). Before that however, I think Cerberus operated as two parallel organizations under TIM - a "shadow" Cerberus made up of their command and fundraising operations, and an "Alliance" Cerberus. This "Alliance" Cerberus would have been the result of covert efforts by TIM to use his connections in the Alliance to spur the creation of black ops military units and science teams. The purpose of this would have been so Cerberus could subtly evaluate and recruit potential candidates and conduct operations using Alliance resources and with Alliance cover without the Alliance knowing about it (at this point the links between the Alliance's Cerberus black ops and that shadowy terrorist group led by TIM would still be unknown). 

Unfortunately for Cerberus, around the time of ME1, some high ranking officers in Alliance leadership started noticing "Alliance" Cerberus exhibiting some signs that it had gone rogue (unsanctioned operations and experiments, not following orders, not following standard rules of warfare in the field, etc.). When Kohaku actually started nosing around too much, Cerberus had to have him killed but it was too late. Shepard had already begun sniffing around and blew up their operation, thus forcing TIM to take "Alliance" Cerberus completely rogue and re-incorporate "shadow" Cerberus and "Alliance" Cerberus into one organization.

How does this relate to Miranda's ties to the Alliance? Well Miranda doesn't suffer from divided loyalties because she was never a part of "Alliance" Cerberus. Where normally intelligence and military operatives might be recruited from the Alliance through Cerberus' Alliance-affiliated cells, Miranda was directly recruited into "shadow" Cerberus by TIM. She still has extensive connections with the Alliance however, because she often had to run operations with Cerberus cells and personnel that remained affiliated with the Alliance. Even when TIM was forced to take all his cells rogue due to Shepard's interference, some Cerberus personnel were left in place in the Alliance as sleeper agents and some old Alliance allies remained oblivious to what had happened.

[Ieldra]

Sorry if it's not your Shepard, but this picture needs to be posted again, and I have no default Shep...

[Prudii Aden]

That's a good pic, although I am rather fond of this one:

[Ieldra]

Must be telepathy - I was just looking at that one in my archive, considering whether to post it. It's indeed one of the best.

[Prudii Aden]

Great minds perhaps?



I was also tempted by this one - the expression is wonderful...

[Spectre4hire]

By reading the last few pages it seems us Miranda fans still all have different perspectives and theorys about her past, present and future. Which always makes for an interesting discussion.

Sorry I cant add anything substantial to the discussion but atm I am at my school's library on one of their computer's.

@Ieldra2 & Prudii Aden: Those are some good pics, I especially like the Vanity Fair cover down to the different articles and stories and even the date and magazine issue number. It was really well thought out.

I am still new to the forums and I am sure that this question has been ask a lot but I was wondering how you put up banners and links on your signature.

Modifié par Spectre4hire , 22 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[fongiel24]

@Spectre4hire - Go to Profile->Forum Settings, then put in your links in the signature section using ["url"]["/url"] tags. I think the tag for banners and other images is ["img"]["/img"] (delete the quotation marks). 

Modifié par fongiel24, 23 septembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[VivaLaNES]

I have to confess...the pics in this thread make my fangirlism go crazy. Shep is crazy lucky to get to hang with Miri all the time!

[snfonseka]

Yannkee wrote...

fongiel24 wrote... 

The only occasion I remember her deviating from this thinking is in the Collector Base, when she raises moral objections to keeping it - and that occasion seemed strangely OOC to myself and others.

What you think OOC is totally IC to myself and others.
The debate is pointless, I know.
But, I can understand that Miranda can be interpreted in different ways. Something I'm not sure everyone here can understand.

Yea that's true. Also it is annoying to hear the same idea from each team member, regarding keeping the base (like they are sharing a same mind) and if you select particular set of dialogs during that desicion, one of the team members will actualy gives reasons that why Shep should keep the base and that same team member will talk against that desicion one they are inside the Normandy.

Since this topic was discussed in several threads over and over again, I don't wish to start another discussion in here .....

[snfonseka]

jtav wrote...

I agree with you fongiel. If she stays, it will be because of the mission. Stopping the Reapers is the very definition of the greater good she sought to serve. I doubt being the XO of a frigate would be enough to satisfy her and provide a challenge under normal circumstances. Taking over Cerberus could provide it. Helping Liara could provide it. Note that this doesn't preclude the romance. Not every couple works together.

I just want to say if she stays as the XO of SR2 in ME3 (I realy hope so), BW should make sure that she is the one who involve in the important event in the SR2 and NOT Jacob. Personaly that character is annoy for my Sheps and I certainly don't like to see that he is acting as XO.

[t3HPrO]

@fongiel24

You've misunderstood me. I never said that Miranda was a damsel in distress waiting for her prince charming. She is a lonely woman who yearns for love and affection, but she had her heart broken by people until the point where she just shuts herself off totally to avoid further heartbreak. And you're right, she doesn't need you but WANTS you. That's why I love her, as she can definitely take care of herself, but the fact that she wants you is great. Like Ne-yo's song titled 'Miss Independent', which I find fits Miranda very well, 'I got a girl that want me but don't need me.



Also, Miranda is the 'go out and do things herself' kind of woman, so I don't see her whacking out TIM and giving orders to agents like he did. It would be more likely that she stays on as your XO as she knows she is directly making an impact on situations. And that is another thing she craves. To have a direct impact on events greater than her, so that she won't feel so much like a tool to be used by others.

[t3HPrO]

Basically put, Miranda's wish to blow the base to hell is completely in character, especially since she's seen Shepard helping people out. And it may also have something to do with her not wanting to be a mere tool, and she applied that to the thousands of colonists turned into soup.