15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...
I quite liked Miri's salute. How'd it ****** you off?

I guess it reminds me too much of things I don't like - like military etiquette and behaviour. I can't imagine how anyone can get through boot camp without shooting the drill sergeant.

Lol, because they'd immediately line you up against the wall the next day? Military discipline isn't for everyone, but the idea of serving your country and being a part of something bigger than yourself is appealing to some people.

Note that I didn't say I didn't respect the military - they do things I'd probably never could. I'm only extremely allergic against authoritarianism. I think it's a necessary evil and there should not exist more of it in the world than absolutely necessary.

I can't say I'm crazy about the salute either. Jacob saluting makes sense because he's ex-Alliance but Miranda isn't. A handshake or a hug would seem more appropriate for her, I think.

You think so? I may not like the salute, but it keeps the distance better than a hug or a handshake, which is appropriate for Miranda if you're not in a romance with her.

Does anybody have a link to video of the salute btw? I've never played through ME2 and not romanced Miranda so I've yet to see it.

Sorry, no luck trying to find one.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 septembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[jtav]

It's actually a lot of fun to take these non-canon pairings and try to make them plausible. I think I'm doing a better job with Miranda/Liara than I ever did with Shepard/Miranda. I can play up certain things-- like the fact that Miranda wishes she could inspire the kind of loyalty that Shepard has inspired in Liara. it's also a bit easier to make the relationship equal instead of having one of them dominate the other.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

It's actually a lot of fun to take these non-canon pairings and try to make them plausible. I think I'm doing a better job with Miranda/Liara than I ever did with Shepard/Miranda. I can play up certain things-- like the fact that Miranda wishes she could inspire the kind of loyalty that Shepard has inspired in Liara. it's also a bit easier to make the relationship equal instead of having one of them dominate the other.

That last part is what makes writing a good Shepard/any pairing difficult because stock Shepard from the game is a classic Mary Sue. You pretty much have to invent insecurities and weaknesses for Shepard, otherwise instead of a romantic pairing you have an omnipotent god/worshipper pairing. Shepard is worse than Jesus as a Mary Sue character. At least Jesus cries, has doubts, and can be killed through normal methods. Nothing short of having his ship vapourized seems to do the trick with Shepard.

[jtav]

And then when you do try to give Shepard weaknesses, readers yell at you. Not that I won't get yelled at over this too, but mostly because I'm breaking up pet pairings. That's much easier to deal with. But Shepard isn't the only possible match for Miranda. I like the idea of Miranda and Liara being the co-protagonists of their own little story, with Shepard being the one who's pushed to the side.

[Arijharn]

To be honest, I disagree with the notion that Kaidan is someone who is rather focussed and rational. If only because if you save him (and you play a maleshep) if you take a pure paragon path in talking to him on Horizon he says "I'd follow you into hell itself. Losing you was like losing a limb." I just find that statement to be absolutely ridiculous.



For one; Kaidan is an officer (now superior) and even as my maleshep's friend that just sounds too clingy for a want of a better term. How could he be willing to follow me into hell but baulk because I'm currently working for (in some capacity at least) Cerberus where as Tali and Garrus who still have misgivings are willing to come to my aid? If anything, wouldn't they have more of a reason to be hesitant?



I know that BioWare's excuse is because that they were LI's they didn't want them to die in ME2 and that's awesome, but I thought the in game excuse was, pardon my language, ****** poor.



This doesn't strike me as rational, this strikes me as emotional dependency in the sense that because Shephard may not be as heroic any more as what they might like, they abandon him.

[t3HPrO]

@jtav

True. And what's with the Shep/Miri dislike?

[Jebel Krong]

Kaiden was basically Jacob v.1.0 - superbland. tbh I couldn't see what Miranda would go for in either. Both are too... unexceptional. Shepard at least is an equal (if not moreso if you're not careful, as people have already said.



In fact kaiden is SO forgettable I forgot he could even survive Virmire, if you so chose, Arijharn mentioning him appearing on horizon reminded me just how much effort BE went to for me2.

[jtav]

Kaidan is not bland. *grumbles*



t3HPrO, is it so strange? It's possible to be a fan of the character, but not the romance. There are some things I like, but I have to subvert BWs intended meaning to be able to enjoy it. For instance, I have to read the elevator scene as an act to keep from throwing things. The good stuff really isn't good enough for me to put up with all the things that I find problematic. So I prefer to go my own way and write my own.

[LuxDragon]

Kaidan is a bit bland. Just a bit. (Ducks for cover)

Pro is just curious about your preferences and asking.

Me? I'm with Jebel and I'm a hardcore Shep/Miri fan. You're just the oddity in which you're a hardcore Miri fan, but not a Shep/Miri romance fan. No biggie.

[jtav]

I know what he meant. It's just that the last time I talked about my criticisms of the romance, things got very ugly and I promised to not bring it up so much.

[Arijharn]

jtav wrote...

I know what he meant. It's just that the last time I talked about my criticisms of the romance, things got very ugly and I promised to not bring it up so much.

I didn't mean it so... wait, you may  not be referring to my rant are you?

I have to admit, I'm a hardcore shep/miri fan too

[t3HPrO]

@jtav

What are your criticisms? It's impossible to have any, or maybe it's just that I'm a hardcore Shep/Miri fan. And honestly speaking, Kaidan wasn't bland. He's just emo. :/

[fongiel24]

Kaidan's not emo. He's been through a lot but he only tells you about it because you asked. Moreso than perhaps any other ME character with "issues", Kaidan has seemed to accept what was inflicted on him and moved on. Other than the slightly OOC moment on Horizon, he's generally competent and professional. When you do ask his opinion, he's honest and direct, unlike Jacob who seems to get offended when you push the wrong buttons. My only problem with Kaidan is Raphael Sbarge, but that's more unresolved issues I have with Carth than any major problems I have with Sbarge's voice acting.



Regarding Shepard/Miranda, I'm not the biggest fan of this pairing either (to be more accurate, I don't like the way it's portrayed in the game). I support it primarily because ME doesn't allow non-Shepard pairings for obvious reasons. I find Shepard to be a generally non-sympathetic character because, as I stated earlier, he's like space-Jesus. Everything is about Shepard solving Miranda's problems and helping her work through her issues. It's essentially a one-way relationship, which I find unnatural and a little boring. If the Miranda romance had had a moment like Shepard had with Liara in LotSB, where he admitted his fatigue and frustration, I would have liked the Shepard/Miranda pairing a lot more.

[Arijharn]

I think your problem with the Shep/Miranda situation is basically the game in general. It felt more to me like an action shooter/adventure game than an RPG. And although fun, it didn't really feel like what I came to expect from ME to be honest.



I feel however that they saw the criticisms and took it to heart for the development of Shadow Broker, and while they can't retroactively change the game that's already been completed, I hold hope (perhaps futile) that it would make the character of Shephard more real come future DLC and it's sequel.



I'm with you, I find stoic Shephard to be monumentally boring and unrealistic. I think in the face of the situation he's in he needs to put his personal misgivings to the side but I would like to see occassional cracks in his (her) armour.

[jtav]

My major problem with the romance is the same as fongiel's. It's all one way. There's never a time when Shepard can be just as frightened of losing her as she is of losing him. He isn't human. My other major problem is the engine room scene. These two are being coy and flirty right after the crew has been kidnapped and they are going to their deaths. It makes them look like a pair of sociopaths. Add in some rather bad one-liners from both of them, and it's really not worth the effort as far as I'm concerned. I just go AU. In game, I stick to my FemSheps.

[LuxDragon]

The problem with Shep is that he's designed that way so he can be open to interperation for the player. You are Shepard. You get to decide what his character is like. BW just tried to keep everything as open-ended as possible so as to appeal to all the gamers. (Which is a lot.)

Unfortunately, that makes him a bit a like space-Jesus. In my eyes, he/she is only like that because you make him like that if you so choose.

[t3HPrO]

@fongiel24&jtav

I agree, it seems rather one way. That's because Bioware made Shepard to be how the player makes him/her out to be, and thus it's rather open ended. Also, bioware failed to realize they needed to put in some emotional conflict about Shepard's past. That's why many fanfic writers have done it, and good fanfic writers will create some personal conflict for Shepard. I myself am gonna do it in a later chapter of my fic.

[t3HPrO]

And nO, I don't make any of my Sheps out to be some form of space-Jesus. It's just cliched.

[t3HPrO]

@fongiel24

I just pray that they have a scene in ME3 where Shep caves in and admits to Miri she/he's tired, and maybe some tears, and Miranda listens sympathetically and then gives Shep a hug, kiss and a de-stressing session. Y'know, omega-4 style.

[t3HPrO]

Lol I just discovered the 1337-speak language option.

[jtav]

If ME3 knocks Miranda's romance out of the park, then I'll reevaluate. Until then, I'll have fun shipping her with pretty much everyone else. Like I said, I'm having more fun now that I'm writing something that I really believe in. There's a few scenes I'm really looking forward to writing with M alliranda/Liara. These two are pretty much my OTP.

[Arijharn]

LuxDragon wrote...

The problem with Shep is that he's designed that way so he can be open to interperation for the player. You are Shepard. You get to decide what his character is like. BW just tried to keep everything as open-ended as possible so as to appeal to all the gamers. (Which is a lot.)
Unfortunately, that makes him a bit a like space-Jesus. In my eyes, he/she is only like that because you make him like that if you so choose.

I totally agree, although I thought that when the Shadow Broker introduced it's end conversation with Liara it was absolutely the step in the right direction while also providing a stoic middle answer that like the fact that Shephard has the emotional response range of Keanu Reeves.

[LuxDragon]

It's a step in the right direction in any case. If Shep continues to be modeled like LOtSB, then he'll evolved nicely as a character.

[Arijharn]

That depends on whether choices he makes as conversational points might modify other similar conversations (but that would be a true herculean task on top of what they've already bitten off)

[Ieldra]

LuxDragon wrote...
It's a step in the right direction in any case. If Shep continues to be modeled like LOtSB, then he'll evolved nicely as a character.

I hope they'll do this. As jtav said, it's all too one-sided with Shepard's romances, even if less so with Miranda than with the other LIs. I like the romance for the depth it adds to Miranda, but the game makes it hard to care about Shepard. Giving him a wider range of emotions (I should say, a range of emotions in the first place) without having the option to make him express it in the game is frustrating. I don't know why they didn't include more options like that - those players who don't like them could always avoid them.

That doesn't change that Shepard/Miranda is my OTP, but it makes the experience less than it could be.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 septembre 2010 - 07:39 .