15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Elyvern]

enayasoul wrote...

Oh I loved that scene... "Stop smiling, damn it." hahaha.  

I think Shepard has a sense of humour and it works for the regenage playthrough... Last night I just finished the part where they get the krogan "Grunt" from the Blue Sun's base...  In the communication center, my Shepard was being funny with Miranda's concerns.   The option... we will just jet him out the airlock... and when she says what if somone is down there..." He still has that look as if he is joking to me... he asks EDI how many more people we have on Normandy.  I thought it was funny...   other playthroughs, i said we will be careful.

When my Shepard converses with the injured blue sun and saying his injury was worse than it really was. Miranda liked it. "Nice touch."  He replies:  I thought so. 

Yes, absolutely. More than any character, the banter and action between Miranda and renegade Shepard seem to come across as being very fluid and intuitive, and more often than not, portrays them as two people who think and act as one. Or in the case of the decision to release Grunt, a great moment which has him trying to have a little harmless fun with her. Like Ieldra has pointed out, it also takes a certain amount of familarity and ease between two people to be able pull off saying "And stop smiling, damn it!" with both parties understanding the undercurrents going on beneath.

I also like their quips about the blue sun merc at Korlus very much. The other interrupt I like very much is during her loyalty mission where Shepard neck twists the captain while she shoots his subordinate. No prior warning, no cues, but she still picks up Shepard's motive immediately, like they share the same mind. An excellent example of perfect partnership in my opinion.

Modifié par Elyvern, 26 septembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've been looking at the numbers for the latest character poll. Miranda seems to be in the middle of the pack in terms of overall character but polls near the bottom in terms of romance. I'm not sure what to make of that. I rank her as either my favorite or second favorite character, but fifth or sixth in romance.

Where are these results? I've been trying to find them myself...

As for where Miranda ranks, I suspect she's more popular among the less hardcore fans and casual players, and these have long left the forums.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 septembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

If I were designing the Miranda romance in ME3, I would actually consider having Miranda take a step back to think about the relationship, rather than letting it become all lovey-dovey immediately. In ME2 everything progressed so quickly that Miranda being a person ruled by reason rather than emotion, might stop and think, "Okay, did I fall in love with Shepard because we're right for each other, or did I fall in love with Shepard because I thought we were going to die and he was convenient?" I would want to see Shepard maybe pushing for more and Miranda resisting a bit while both of them figure out what they really mean to each other.

Second this totally. In fact, I'm exploring this right now in my fic. I'm sure I'm of the minority here, but I was quite disconcerted with one of the romance conversations where she says "what idiotic bunch of hormones thought that now was a great time for love?" Personally, I can't buy that she used that four-letter word at such an early stage of their relationship. It feels like she's suddenly making herself too emotional vulnerable. Saying something like that meant opening herself up to the danger of Shepard discounting that emotion. (which he does actually, but in a joking way with room for another interpretation, thank god)

I can understand that her saying this would greatly support the stance that the engine room scene was more than just a fling, but I just felt it was out of character. She's an emotionally reserved person, and to utter something so revealing and so fast--I always have trouble reconciling to it despite multiple playthroughs.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I've been looking at the numbers for the latest character poll. Miranda seems to be in the middle of the pack in terms of overall character but polls near the bottom in terms of romance. I'm not sure what to make of that. I rank her as either my favorite or second favorite character, but fifth or sixth in romance.

Where are these results? I've been trying to find them myself...

As for where Miranda ranks, I suspect she's more popular among the less hardcore fans and casual players, and these have long left the forums.

Here

Probably. She's Ms. Fanservice and those are a dime a dozen. I still like her, but is in spite of that. I have this thing for competent spies. And I want to hug her.

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

Here's a flipside argument. Everyone assumes and has reasoned that Miranda hooked up with NoGames411 at some point prior to your romance or prior to the resurrection of Shephard (and I agree) but, purely as a thought experiment what would you think however, as you romanced her, that she did cheat on you? Just go the whole curve ball thought thing and suppose that she did. Assume that she tearfully confessed (even if you think this is terribly OOC). Would that change anything for you? Would you have your Shephard forgive her?

My Shepard can and will forgive her. In fact, if I were to play Devil's Advocate here, I can imagine her getting emotionally freaked out that she's falling for him and then attempt to chalk it down to being purely the effect of sexual frustration. That dating part would be her attempt to have a one-night stand with a stranger to see if she can safely discount that issue. It may even explain her curt and sociopathic responses in the chat transcripts. She's in a hurry to deny her attraction to Shepard, hoping that a fling would prove that her attraction was simply bodily lust and nothing else. Except, it's obviously more than that.

A tearful confession would be really OOC and wouldn't be appropriate unless their relationship is much deeper, and even so I would have reservations. Emotional outbursts would be very very rare for Miranda and has to be caused by something more drastic than an isolated sexual fling. I play my Shepard as a one-woman man (I absolutely refuse to trap Kelly emotionally even if it would lengthen the lifespan of my fish), but as long as emotions and commitment isn't involved, he would be willing to forgive and forget a transgression like that. If she slept with Jacob, however, that would be another issue, and it would be more akin to betrayal for me personally (similar to seducing Kelly but taking it even further).

Modifié par Elyvern, 26 septembre 2010 - 05:23 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I've been looking at the numbers for the latest character poll. Miranda seems to be in the middle of the pack in terms of overall character but polls near the bottom in terms of romance. I'm not sure what to make of that. I rank her as either my favorite or second favorite character, but fifth or sixth in romance.

Where are these results? I've been trying to find them myself...

As for where Miranda ranks, I suspect she's more popular among the less hardcore fans and casual players, and these have long left the forums.

Here

Probably. She's Ms. Fanservice and those are a dime a dozen. I still like her, but is in spite of that. I have this thing for competent spies. And I want to hug her.

Thanks - I found the thread in the meantime. The result is very similar to that of the polls made a few months ago, so I'm not surprised. About Pacifien's romance poll, the only thing that has changed from earlier results is that Ashley and Miranda have switched places. IMO that's the result of the fact that most people still active are are long-term fans more likely to be ME1 LI fans.

I also have this thing for competent spies

[jtav]

I also recall Miranda ranking in the middle of the pack from the earliest polls. At least she's consistent. She's really a great character, even if I pick on her romance.

[Jebel Krong]

Elyvern wrote...

enayasoul wrote...

Oh I loved that scene... "Stop smiling, damn it." hahaha.  

I think Shepard has a sense of humour and it works for the regenage playthrough... Last night I just finished the part where they get the krogan "Grunt" from the Blue Sun's base...  In the communication center, my Shepard was being funny with Miranda's concerns.   The option... we will just jet him out the airlock... and when she says what if somone is down there..." He still has that look as if he is joking to me... he asks EDI how many more people we have on Normandy.  I thought it was funny...   other playthroughs, i said we will be careful.

When my Shepard converses with the injured blue sun and saying his injury was worse than it really was. Miranda liked it. "Nice touch."  He replies:  I thought so. 

Yes, absolutely. More than any character, the banter and action between Miranda and renegade Shepard seem to come across as being very fluid and intuitive, and more often than not, portrays them as two people who think and act as one. Or in the case of the decision to release Grunt, a great moment which has him trying to have a little harmless fun with her. Like Ieldra has pointed out, it also takes a certain amount of familarity and ease between two people to be able pull off saying "And stop smiling, damn it!" with both parties understanding the undercurrents going on beneath.

I also like their quips about the blue sun merc at Korlus very much. The other interrupt I like very much is during her loyalty mission where Shepard neck twists the captain while she shoots his subordinate. No prior warning, no cues, but she still picks up Shepard's motive immediately, like they share the same mind. An excellent example of perfect partnership in my opinion.

That's actually my favourite moment in the entire game.

[Jebel Krong]

BTW: forum polls aren't worth the paper they're printed on... and I have done statistical analysis both academically and professionally.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 26 septembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[jtav]

True, but I think it would be fair to say that the number of passionate Miranda fans is fairly small.

[Caihn]

I don't think so. They are many passionate fans, but they are not here anymore.
The fact that they left doesn't mean that they are not passionate fans. I personally wanted to leave the forum a hundred times since I register.

I also know some Miri fans who never visited the forum. And sometimes I envy them.

Modifié par Yannkee, 26 septembre 2010 - 06:56 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...
I also know some Miri fans who never visited the forum. And sometimes I envy them.

You mean dissecting everything can lessen your appreciation of a character? To a degree, I can understand that. There are times when I re-visit the OP to re-read what I've written in the "Miranda Manifesto" with the explicit purpose of reminding myself why I'm here. I find it satisfying to notice I'd still write the same about her today, though that fact sometimes gets buried in debate.

BTW; your video is also a very good source of respite from debate.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[jtav]

I don't think I've changed that much, except for accepting that I don't adore the romance and this is okay. I've always had a tendency to focus on her ruthless side and unpleasant speculation.

[XX55XX]

Jebel Krong wrote...

BTW: forum polls aren't worth the paper they're printed on... and I have done statistical analysis both academically and professionally.

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

But, to say that they aren't worth the paper they are printed on is silly. Polls are merely a reflection of community sentiment. If Miranda is really a 10 to you, then she will remain a 10 to you. No silly poll should change that.

Now, since I care about what others think, I organize these polls and post their results...

I personally gave Miranda a 7 in my own poll. She's a solid character, and I do actually like her. But, in a sea of other such fascinating characters, I think that she doesn't achieve the level of attention that the other characters get.

[Ieldra]

XX55XX wrote...
I personally gave Miranda a 7 in my own poll. She's a solid character, and I do actually like her. But, in a sea of other such fascinating characters, I think that she doesn't achieve the level of attention that the other characters get.

...except that the polls usually don't reflect how fascinating characters are. Face it, Garrus is mainly popular because of his roles as Shepard's buddy and the Normandy's resident king of cool. Those aren't exactly what I'd call fascinating. Any added depth he might have (and I take his fans' word that he has) is a minority taste. The same applies to Miranda regarding her role as Ms. Fanservice, only that she has two immediately apparent attributes generally considered dislikeable (aloof and distanced, Cerberus loyalist), so her fanbase is smaller from the start than the fanbases of characters with no immediately apparent dislikeable attributes.

There are only a few other characters apart from Miranda I'd call "fascinating". The only ones who immediately come to mind are Thane and Legion. In the end, I think Miranda's doing rather well for a character created to be controversial. I'm content with her having a substantial fanbase in spite of her coming across as cold and aloof at the start.

[Auzden]

i could understand why miranda wouldnt be the most popular. i would give her a 8.5. i like her alot. i just like Tali and Liara better. if Miri was real she would probably just be a good friend

[jtav]

I think Mordin is pretty fascinating as well I tend to prefer characters I find interesting to characters I like. Miranda is one of those characters who gives me a lot to chew on. She feels more real to me than Tali, who I actually like a lot more.

[Ieldra]

Any interesting text for this picture?



@jtav:
Yes, I did forget Mordin.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 septembre 2010 - 09:08 .

[fongiel24]

Dissecting Miranda has never made me like the character less. My enthusiasm for the romance ebbs and flows, but discussion doesn't affect how I feel about the character. I think this has to do with my never having put Miranda on a pedestal. She's never been the perfect woman, who I'd model my future wife on, or the princess in white for me. She's a very flawed human being with serious issues to contend with (I'm primarily referring to her intimacy, trust, and existentialist issues) that actually make her far from ideal as a fairy tale romantic partner.

However, those flaws also make her very real to me and despite what she's gone through, she doesn't seem to let any of it hold her back. That's what attracts me to her. For that reason, I don't really care how much crap other people on the forums throw at her. I've already admitted that she's a damaged person. I'm not like some of those talimancers who think their LI is perfect. Miranda is simply a character I like because I find her intriguing, therefore I don't get offended when others point out her flaws. Flaws make a character more interesting, not less, IMO.

jtav wrote...

I think Mordin is pretty fascinating as well I tend to prefer characters I find interesting to characters I like. Miranda is one of those characters who gives me a lot to chew on. She feels more real to me than Tali, who I actually like a lot more.

TBH, I'm not a big fan of any of the ME1 crew (with the exception of post-LotSB Liara) and I only like a few of the ME2 crew. The inclusion of Tali as an LI for ME2 completely ruined the character for me. In ME1 my feelings towards her could be described as "meh", but in ME2 I've felt my enthusiasm for her character steadily decrease as her popularity amongst her fans increases. I'm not as opposed to the idea of xenophilia as some people, but human-quarian sex is just really pushing the bounds of plausibility, even moreso than human-asari sex. I also really dislike Tali's schoolgirl crush on Shepard. For me, it ruins what used to be a decently written big brother-little sister relationship. Shepard hugging Tali on the Alarei could have been sweet, but seen in the context of Tali's crush, I found it so disturbingly creepy that I just skip it on all my playthroughs now.

Modifié par fongiel24, 26 septembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[philiposophy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Any interesting text for this picture?

"Damnit, that's a lot of stars!"

[jtav]

fongiel, I agree with your thoughts on the Talimance. I meant that, if they were real people, I'd be far more likely to get along with Tali. Miranda and I would hate each other. Miranda the character is a fascinating, damaged, complicated woman who can make me feel about half-a-dozen things at once. She occupies an uneasy place between heroine and villain for me. There are only a few lines she won't cross, but the acts she commits are done in defense of humanity or those she cares for. She isn't in this for power, money, or vengeance. She takes no pleasure in her more questionable actions but does only what she feels she must.

[Spectre4hire]

Agreed, the many reasons why many people dont like Miranda, (her icy demeanor, her strong will, independence.) I think make her a very unique chracter especially in this game and compared to the other LIs you can get.



She is a polarizing figure. You either really like and appreciate the character or you loathe her. There is very little middleground.



I agree with you fongiel on that I always saw Tali and Shepard (big brother-little sister). However I still like her character in ME2 but I just cant see her as a Love Interest.



A scene I always thought would be interesting with Miranda is Garrus's loyalty mission, I would love to see and hear how she would react what advice and comments she would give him.



Whatever she would say I am sure that it would contrast to what my paragon Shepard would say.

[Angmir]

Sorry to interrupt - Is there any room for a Talimancer to join ?



As much as I'd like to comment on Miranda now, my Knight Errant inner call, demands to protect the innocent Tali first

I'm not of the unreasonable kind, and as far as I can understand Fongiel's aversion to Tali's fanatics, I c annot comprehand him extending this dislike onto Tali herself. I meen it is childish and silly to spite someone becouse of such trival thing. That's just reason not enought. It's like beliving in the God but still disliking him becouse of people zealotry.



And about Miranda - I dont see how is she the villain at all - @jtav

I meen she's strict and commited, her life taught her to be ruthless but not without higher principles. But i can't see her as bad character at all. She's true in her attitiude and I can appreciate that. I preffer Tali over her, but it doesn't prevent me from admiring her (and her body ) I like her over Jack for sure.

[Angmir]

Spectre4hire wrote...

Agreed, the many reasons why many people dont like Miranda, (her icy demeanor, her strong will, independence.) I think make her a very unique chracter especially in this game and compared to the other LIs you can get.

She is a polarizing figure. You either really like and appreciate the character or you loathe her. There is very little middleground.

I agree with you fongiel on that I always saw Tali and Shepard (big brother-little sister). However I still like her character in ME2 but I just cant see her as a Love Interest.

A scene I always thought would be interesting with Miranda is Garrus's loyalty mission, I would love to see and hear how she would react what advice and comments she would give him.

Whatever she would say I am sure that it would contrast to what my paragon Shepard would say.

The worst thing about Miranda as a LI is that she let's Shepherd go of so easly. I can imagine this being just a mask while she's still deeply hurt inside.But why doesn't they make her show it sometime ?? Like a moment of break and grief release, somewere before Omega -4.

[fongiel24]

Angmir wrote...

Sorry to interrupt - Is there any room for a Talimancer to join ?

As much as I'd like to comment on Miranda now, my Knight Errant inner call, demands to protect the innocent Tali first
I'm not of the unreasonable kind, and as far as I can understand Fongiel's aversion to Tali's fanatics, I c annot comprehand him extending this dislike onto Tali herself. I meen it is childish and silly to spite someone becouse of such trival thing. That's just reason not enought. It's like beliving in the God but still disliking him becouse of people zealotry.

I appreciate your civil response, Angmir. My problem with ME2 Tali however, extends to her not because I dislike her fans (a lot of you are actually quite levelheaded but unfortunately the fanatics from every fanbase tend to drown everyone else out), but because the way her character has been developed takes her in a direction I don't like. In ME1, while she seemed to look up to Shepard and appreciate his attempts to make her feel welcome, she struck me as someone who's extremely devoted to her people. As someone who's never enjoyed strong familial bonds, I admire someone who maintains such loyalty to her family.

In ME2, we still see some of this but her bond with Shepard seems to compromise this. Her devotion to Shepard is so strong that she's even willing to work with Cerberus, cooperation which would be unthinkable to any other quarian. Her attraction to him is so strong that she's even willing to risk death to be with him. That level of fawning and obsession is something I find very unsettling, and somewhat OC for a character who otherwise generally acts with a maturity and levelheadedness beyond her years.

It also doesn't help that her recruitment comes so late that all I get out of her is one non-romance conversation (two, counting her loyalty mission request) before the Shepard/Tali relationship immediately lapses into schoolyard flirting. If you try to turn her down gently with the middle option, she still can't seem to let go. I can't remember her exact words, but her response goes something along the lines of "So we can't be together now but you're still interested?". After you turn her down, Tali has nothing more to say to you. So basically, unless you do the romance, you get two non-LM-related onboard interactive conversations with her. It doesn't feel like it's possible to maintain a friendship with Tali without her pushing for something more. That's what I don't like about her character in ME2. 

Angmir wrote...

The worst thing about Miranda as a LI is
that she let's Shepherd go of so easly. I can imagine this being just a
mask while she's still deeply hurt inside.But why doesn't they make her
show it sometime ?? Like a moment of break and grief release, somewere
before Omega -4.

Some people might argue that her "Don't die on me" conversation is that moment of "break and grief release". That's what I read that conversation as. I don't think it makes sense to expect anything more dramatic than what Miranda says in that instance.

ME2's timeline is at most a few months. I don't know how other people handle things so early in a relationship, but I 'm uncomfortable even straying near a certain four-letter word that early. Love-at-first-sight is an attractive idea, but I can't see Miranda letting herself fall so head-over-heels for Shepard that she loses her composure, particularly when their relationship is still so "young".

Modifié par fongiel24, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:35 .