15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Caihn]

Angmir wrote...

And about Miranda - I dont see how is she the villain at all - @jtav
I meen she's strict and commited, her life taught her to be ruthless but not without higher principles. But i can't see her as bad character at all. She's true in her attitiude and I can appreciate that. I preffer Tali over her, but it doesn't prevent me from admiring her (and her body ) I like her over Jack for sure.

QFT

She's absolutely not a villain.

Modifié par Yannkee, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Angmir]

fongiel24 wrote...

Angmir wrote...

Sorry to interrupt - Is there any room for a Talimancer to join ?

As much as I'd like to comment on Miranda now, my Knight Errant inner call, demands to protect the innocent Tali first
I'm not of the unreasonable kind, and as far as I can understand Fongiel's aversion to Tali's fanatics, I c annot comprehand him extending this dislike onto Tali herself. I meen it is childish and silly to spite someone becouse of such trival thing. That's just reason not enought. It's like beliving in the God but still disliking him becouse of people zealotry.

I appreciate your civil response, Angmir. My problem with ME2 Tali however, extends to her not because I dislike her fans (a lot of you are actually quite levelheaded but unfortunately the fanatics from every fanbase tend to drown everyone else out), but because the way her character has been developed takes her in a direction I don't like. In ME1, while she seemed to look up to Shepard and appreciate his attempts to make her feel welcome, she struck me as someone who's extremely devoted to her people. As someone who's never enjoyed strong familial bonds, I admire someone who maintains such loyalty to her family.

In ME2, we still see some of this but her bond with Shepard seems to compromise this. Her devotion to Shepard is so strong that she's even willing to work with Cerberus, cooperation which would be unthinkable to any other quarian. Her attraction to him is so strong that she's even willing to risk death to be with him. That level of fawning and obsession is something I find very unsettling, and somewhat OC for a character who otherwise generally acts with a maturity and levelheadedness beyond her years.

It also doesn't help that her recruitment comes so late that all I get out of her is one non-romance conversation (two, counting her loyalty mission request) before the Shepard/Tali relationship immediately lapses into schoolyard flirting. If you try to turn her down gently with the middle option, she still can't seem to let go. I can't remember her exact words, but her response goes something along the lines of "So we can't be together now but you're still interested?". After you turn her down, Tali has nothing more to say to you. So basically, unless you do the romance, you get two non-LM-related onboard interactive conversations with her. It doesn't feel like it's possible to maintain a friendship with Tali without her pushing for something more. That's what I don't like about her character in ME2. 

True but this is not just Tali's issue. Garus is largly the same .hell i've herd he's not so talkative even if you romance with him. I call it a game developers fault.
I wont yell at you in Talimancer way - Hey how can you turn Tali down - your so cruel I wont For me its pretty obvios that the game sometimes needs variety of responses, but hey aren't there (or it is hard to figure it out what will shepherd say after selection  uncertain looking option). So I give you that - game is flawed in there. But is this Tali's fault ? Is she guilty for having juvenile fascination about her Captain - hell Shepherd is a Hero of the Galaxy he helped her numerous times, saved her life twice. You can't blame her about that. Even though she isn't imposing herself on him, she grim and bear's it, and would never let her affection impede Shepherds mission. Actually if it wasn't Shepherd responding to that intrest on the begining she wouldn't ever again mention that.
I am not a huge fan of all this xenofillic **** myself, but Tali's just to cute, and humane to ignore her. We all are free to make our choisess, but in the end our choisess make us (I love that Bioshock trailer)

I know I wont suade you to loose all your's disslike to her, but I'd like to think we can agree It is nothing wrong with her actualy, just too little options there in the game.

PS. And I think they would justify lack of non-romance chats with her with already talking to her in first part, just like with Garus.

[fongiel24]

I'm not defending Garrus. Garrus is even worse than Tali. He's available from the start of the game yet has almost nothing to say.



If Tali was anybody else, I'd find her juvenile infatuation with Shepard to be excusable but she's not and thus her infatuation is a little strange. She's known Shepard as long as anybody in his crew has so the "celebrity-shock" from meeting the "Hero of the Citadel" should be limited. He may have saved her life twice, but Tali herself isn't a damsel-in-distress. She's capable of taking care of herself in the field. She's well-liked and well-respected amongst her people, even considered to be somewhat of an engineering prodigy, according to her dossier in the suicide mission. Tali has accomplished enough in her life that I just can't understand why she's so enthralled by Shepard.

[jtav]

By villain, I mean I think Miranda has done some things I'd consider reprehensible. I'm deontological (mostly, it's not stealing if you steal food because you'll starve otherwise) in my ethics. The control chip suggestion doesn't speak well for her ethics. With the exception of the base, we're presented over and over again with someone who will always put her job first, including being willing to see the crew die instead of sending one person back with them. It's the rational choice, but a cold one. Considering her employer, I see her as a fairly dark gray.

[Throw_this_away]

Miranda is no villain, but she is interesting because she is going in that direction. IMHO it is shep that begins to help her find her own way. She is interesting for that reason. Shep can really help her change.



Tali is just a straight forward character written to be liked. Nothing interesting or challenging here. I don't need the ego boost of her throwing herself at me. Yawn.



Miranda is the better character because you hate her... Yet you are able to sympAthize with her, and even grow to like her in time. That is tougher to accomplish. Well written, Howe er I would agree with others in saying that jack and Miranda are redundant.

[enayasoul]

[quote]Elyvern wrote...

[quote]Arijharn wrote...

My Shepard can and will forgive her. In fact, if I were to play Devil's Advocate here, I can imagine her getting emotionally freaked out that she's falling for him and then attempt to chalk it down to being purely the effect of sexual frustration. That dating part would be her attempt to have a one-night stand with a stranger to see if she can safely discount that issue. It may even explain her curt and sociopathic responses in the chat transcripts. She's in a hurry to deny her attraction to Shepard, hoping that a fling would prove that her attraction was simply bodily lust and nothing else. Except, it's obviously more than that.

A tearful confession would be really OOC and wouldn't be appropriate unless their relationship is much deeper, and even so I would have reservations. Emotional outbursts would be very very rare for Miranda and has to be caused by something more drastic than an isolated sexual fling. I play my Shepard as a one-woman man (I absolutely refuse to trap Kelly emotionally even if it would lengthen the lifespan of my fish), but as long as emotions and commitment isn't involved, he would be willing to forgive and forget a transgression like that. If she slept with Jacob, however, that would be another issue, and it would be more akin to betrayal for me personally (similar to seducing Kelly but taking it even further).
[/quote]

Oh, I can definitely see this as a possible answer for having a one night stand. Like you said... she probably was falling for shepard  (and why the heck not!) and to see if it really was something more than sexual frustration.   She probably does love him or beginning to.

[Arijharn]

I have to agree with Angmir; I don't dislike Tali and I think it's a bit of an over-reaction to extend the behaviour of some talimaniacs onto the character, however I do see Tali as more of a hero-worshipping character (and if I played a female shephard, I wouldn't romance Garrus either for pretty much the exact same reason).



Also, I don't understand the rationale between sexual encounters between differing species. Hell, I'd conspire to bring Tali and Kal'Reegar together, and I'd conspire to bring Garrus together with someone else, but jumping into bed with them just seems patently ridiculous to me personally. I mean, it seems to me that Tali was literally dying to get together with Shephard, and frankly I find that a wee bit disturbing.



I like Miranda because:

a) She's hot (Yvonne Strahovski). To be brutally honest I think people who say that looks don't matter are somewhat fudging the issue. It may not be the key ingredient to the equation, but if she isn't attractive enough to gain your attention in the first place, it isn't going to happen.

She seems to compliment Shephard's capabilities (i.e., not more of the same... this could be because I usually play a Vanguard or Adept... but she's principally an intellectual sort of character in my opinion)

c) She's obviously very intelligent. A lot smarter than Shephard in any case.

d) She's ruthless. I admit, I find a somewhat dominant personality (well someone who isn't afraid to go after what she wants) to be a 'bit' of a turn on.

e) She's sensible -- she tries to not let issues distract her.



Probably more than that too, but that's what I've identified so far.

[jtav]

Objection. Looks really don't matter that much to me. She isn't my type. Obviosly, I have no problem with xenophilia.

[fongiel24]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Miranda is the better character because you hate her... Yet you are able to sympAthize with her, and even grow to like her in time. That is tougher to accomplish. Well written, Howe er I would agree with others in saying that jack and Miranda are redundant.

To a degree, they're both "redemption romances" in that both of them are "bad girls" that Shepard can romance and maybe influence somewhat. But I wouldn't say Miranda and Jack are interchangeable. Jack is redundant, but Miranda isn't. Without Miranda, there's no morally ambiguous Cerberus character - the only Cerberus representative would be Jacob, who's very clearly reluctant about going along with Cerberus' more morally ambiguous initiatives. Working with Cerberus requires a devil's advocate, and Miranda as "the Loyalist" plays that role.  Removing Jack from ME2 wouldn't change it much for anyone other than Jack fans, but removing Miranda would leave a much larger hole considering how involved she is in the main plot.

Modifié par fongiel24, 27 septembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[Throw_this_away]

Arijharn, I would agree with you on many levels. Yvonne is a beautiful, and mirandas blend of smarts, skill, indipendance, drive, combined with a human side like the rest of us... Makes her very attractive IMHO. Tali is too easy and puppy like, jack is too hardcore, liara is ok but too soft for me, Ashley... Well I need to get to know her more. Samara is interesting for sure, but she doesn't open up enough.

[Throw_this_away]

Fongiel24 I agree with you. Both are the bad girls that you help. I call them redundant for that reason. Miranda is integral to the story for sure. Jack is not.



I see the female li's as a spectrum. Jack is the most hardcore with the most misfit history and appearance. Tali is the nice virginal butterflies and rainbows type. She presents no real personality roadblocks. Miranda falls in between, but closer to jack.

[Nightwriter]

I like conflict. That's why I like Miranda. I need someone who can provide conflict. My first boyfriend was the minister's son. I'm an atheist. My next boyfriend was the captain of the rival debate team. Said he'd never lose to a woman. He lost.

I want conflict, goddamn it. I need it. Gimme some competition. I didn't have any at all in Mass Effect, until Miranda. And I still didn't get as much as I wanted.

[jtav]

I tend not to like that sort of conflict. My preference is for couples who get along from the first, with the conflict stemming from either internal neuroses or some external threat. I'd be much more likely to use Miiranda's trouble opening up and fear of getting her heart broken than having her initially dislike her partner.

[Throw_this_away]

Conflict within a character makes and interesting character. Rhat is miranda. Conflict between two people in a relationship does not make for a good relationship unless the conflict can be resolved.

[LuxDragon]

Arijharn wrote...

She seems to compliment Shephard's capabilities (i.e., not more of the same... this could be because I usually play a Vanguard or Adept... but she's principally an intellectual sort of character in my opinion)
c) She's obviously very intelligent. A lot smarter than Shephard in any case.

It's really strange you posted those two points in since I just wrote something like that in my coming chapter a few hours ago...

[Arijharn]

LuxDragon wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

She seems to compliment Shephard's capabilities (i.e., not more of the same... this could be because I usually play a Vanguard or Adept... but she's principally an intellectual sort of character in my opinion)
c) She's obviously very intelligent. A lot smarter than Shephard in any case.

It's really strange you posted those two points in since I just wrote something like that in my coming chapter a few hours ago...

Hell, I'm just glad you put in the fact that they find each good looking, that seems honest

[t3HPrO]

I was attracted to Miranda mainly because of her character. Smart, intelligent, streetwise, aloof, cool and calm. And to top it all off, hot as...Yvonne Strahovski. Besides, I find that she's a natural complement to Shepard's character(or lack thereof). Or maybe it's just that I like helping out women with self-esteem and other personal issues, which was fostered by my psychology module.

[t3HPrO]

@jtav

I like that it took some time for Miri to warm to Shep. However, I feel that some conflict will be natural at the first few months or maybe even year of the relationship, but as it goes on, the number of conflicts will diminish.

[Nightwriter]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Conflict within a character makes and interesting character. Rhat is miranda. Conflict between two people in a relationship does not make for a good relationship unless the conflict can be resolved.

The Han/Leia and Thomas Crown Affair romances are a few of my favorites.

Both involve intense initial conflict that gives way to deeper and more meaningful feelings. That's how I like a romance to go.

[fongiel24]

I would venture that with a character like Shepard, who's depicted as being larger than life and possessed of uncommon leadership and inner drive, the only LIs who stand a chance at not being completely dominated are LIs who put up a fight against him in the beginning of the relationship. If Shepard's LIs aren't fiery, there's a risk they'll be completely eclipsed. That's why I like that Miranda maintains that icy personality when she first meets Shepard and continues trying to hold him at arms length, even after her loyalty mission - it buys some time for her to establish herself as an independent character.

[Mox Ruuga]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Fongiel24 I agree with you. Both are the bad girls that you help. I call them redundant for that reason. Miranda is integral to the story for sure. Jack is not.

I see the female li's as a spectrum. Jack is the most hardcore with the most misfit history and appearance. Tali is the nice virginal butterflies and rainbows type. She presents no real personality roadblocks. Miranda falls in between, but closer to jack.

I think smudboy had something, when he suggested that combining several characters would have improved ME2 and reduced redundancy. His suggestions were: Miri + Jack = Miranda Lawson the genetically engineered Cerberus super biotic, and Zaeed + Jacob = Zaeed Massani, the veteran mercenary Cerberus operative.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
Dissecting Miranda has never made me like the character less. My enthusiasm for the romance ebbs and flows, but discussion doesn't affect how I feel about the character. I think this has to do with my never having put Miranda on a pedestal. She's never been the perfect woman, who I'd model my future wife on, or the princess in white for me. She's a very flawed human being with serious issues to contend with (I'm primarily referring to her intimacy, trust, and existentialist issues) that actually make her far from ideal as a fairy tale romantic partner.

I can only repeat that I think people make too much of her "issues". Being slow to trust and slow to open up emotionally is IMO a very reasonable attitude and not at all a flaw (yeah, being something of a misanthrope here). That it causes problems at some point is natural, but I prefer it to the opposite attitude I see all too often in people: not being able to learn distrust in spite of having been betrayed several times. To be fast to trust is not a virtue. I can only say that I like Miranda for that, and it doesn't detract one bit from her appeal as my Shepard's romantic partner.

As I see it, Miranda's main problem is her attitude to her own origin, and her main flaw - which disappears during the events of ME2 - is her insufficiently reflected Cerberus loyalism. But I get the impression that given time and distance to those who want to use her, she could come to terms with all that on her own. Thus, to call her "damaged" - as if a psychotherapist was the first thing she needed - is going too far. Grr.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[snfonseka]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...
Dissecting Miranda has never made me like the character less. My enthusiasm for the romance ebbs and flows, but discussion doesn't affect how I feel about the character. I think this has to do with my never having put Miranda on a pedestal. She's never been the perfect woman, who I'd model my future wife on, or the princess in white for me. She's a very flawed human being with serious issues to contend with (I'm primarily referring to her intimacy, trust, and existentialist issues) that actually make her far from ideal as a fairy tale romantic partner.

I can only repeat that I think people make too much of her "issues". Being slow to trust and slow to open up emotionally is IMO a very reasonable attitude and not at all a flaw (yeah, being something of a misanthrope here). That it causes problems at some point is natural, but I prefer it to the opposite attitude I see all too often in people: not being able to learn distrust in spite of having been betrayed several times. To be fast to trust is not a virtue. I can only say that I like Miranda for that, and it doesn't detract one bit from her appeal as my Shepard's romantic partner.

As I see it, Miranda's main problem is her attitude to her own origin, and her main flaw - which disappears during the events of ME2 - is her insufficiently reflected Cerberus loyalism. But I get the impression that given time and distance to those who want to use her, she could come to terms with all that on her own. Thus, to call her "damaged" - as if a psychotherapist was the first thing she needed - is going too far. Grr.

Besides there are no perfect people (not taking about physical perfectness) in the world, each person has their own flaws more or less. So finding a person without flaws is a fantacy not reality. As I mentioned several times in this thread this is the reason why I like Miranda, as a in-game character she is more realistic when considering her behavior. Tali on the other hand, is all about "rainbows and butterflies" who gives a god like respect to Shep and I think that is not realistic at all. Eventhough I didn't hate Tali I dislike her because of these unrealistic behaviors. If anyone needs to create a flawless character from Miranda, the final outcome would be a character equals to Tali.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can only repeat that I think people make too much of her "issues". Being slow to trust and slow to open up emotionally is IMO a very reasonable attitude and not at all a flaw (yeah, being something of a misanthrope here). That it causes problems at some point is natural, but I prefer it to the opposite attitude I see all too often in people: not being able to learn distrust in spite of having been betrayed several times. To be fast to trust is not a virtue. I can only say that I like Miranda for that, and it doesn't detract one bit from her appeal as my Shepard's romantic partner.

As I see it, Miranda's main problem is her attitude to her own origin, and her main flaw - which disappears during the events of ME2 - is her insufficiently reflected Cerberus loyalism. But I get the impression that given time and distance to those who want to use her, she could come to terms with all that on her own. Thus, to call her "damaged" - as if a psychotherapist was the first thing she needed - is going too far. Grr.

I'm not saying Miranda should be like Snow White and automatically trust the first person who knocks on her door, but even with those people she works with and interacts with regularly she seems slower to trust them or rely on them. I'm not speaking of her relationship with Shepard, I'm speaking of Wilson's tapes and Jacob's comments that they seem to know next to nothing about her. Considering Miranda worked with Wilson and Jacob for years, I suspect this is Miranda's standard MO and that her opening up to Shepard is the exception to the rule. In her profession a healthy degree of cynicism and distrust towards others is probably a good idea, but Miranda seems slow to trust even compared to others in her field. If she wanted to become TIW, I doubt she'd be much less of an enigma than TIM.

Miranda is not "damaged" in the way Jack is. That's why I deliberately used the word "flawed" and not "damaged". Miranda is capable of functioning "normally", Jack probably is not. She's dealt with her issues well enough to do her job and blend into society but I doubt she's truly happy with her life. She might tell herself she's found a purpose, but can we honestly say she's found fulfillment?  Granted most people will never find true happiness or fulfillment, but my point is that Miranda is an imperfect human being on the inside, despite being perfect on the outside. 

I call Miranda flawed because despite her engineered physical perfection, she remains human, with all the emotional needs that that entails. She might be unusually strong, but human beings are social animals that aren't designed to go through life in emotional isolation. Given her childhood, her being forced to run from her father, then her professional association with Cerberus as a top operative, I doubt Miranda has ever had a chance to build any kind of an emotional support network of friends and family. While the absence of such a network would train her to become self-reliant and independent, it would also likely mean leading a very lonely existence. I'm not saying she'll need years of intense psychotherapy to become "normal" (whatever that means), but her background requires that her serious romantic partners take a different approach than they would towards someone with a more "conventional" upbringing and social life.

[Ieldra]

Angmir wrote...
So I give you that - game is flawed in there. But is this Tali's fault ? Is she guilty for having juvenile fascination about her Captain - hell Shepherd is a Hero of the Galaxy he helped her numerous times, saved her life twice. You can't blame her about that. Even though she isn't imposing herself on him, she grim and bear's it, and would never let her affection impede Shepherds mission. Actually if it wasn't Shepherd responding to that intrest on the begining she wouldn't ever again mention that.

Guilty? No. But it's something I dislike anyway. Actually, I like Tali as a character. At Freedom's Progress, she's introduced as competent and assertive, you can see she's grown a lot since ME1. But in the romance all that disappears, and she acts like a schoolgirl with a crush. That's what I don't like. It's a matter of taste, yes, but that doesn't change the fact.

I am not a huge fan of all this xenofillic **** myself, but Tali's just to cute, and humane to ignore her. We all are free to make our choisess, but in the end our choisess make us (I love that Bioshock trailer)

Not quite as original as one might believe: "You will be what you will be. We are our choices." (Deus Ex, Helios ending, 1999 - btw a game still worth playing after 11 years. But avoid DX2).

Regarding Miranda's ethics:
I can't express how refreshing it is to see an LI character who tends to put rationality first. I do not always agree with her, but even if I don't, I can see her perspective has merit and should be considered before making my decision. One thing where I wholeheartedly agree with her: if it was her decision, Jack wouldn't be part of the team and she certainly wouldn't have access to classified Cerberus data. Another thing where I agree with her is to delay going after the crew if your team is not at its strongest. Casualties are part of any war, and if going after the crew lessens your chance of survival in a mission already considered suicidal, then waiting until you have the strongest possible team is the only rational decision. Miranda's recommendations are often aimed at the best possible outcome from a realistic perspective. The game unfortunately masks this - her decisions come across as unnecessarily callous because there are never any negative consequences of Paragon decisions. There should be.