15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

Fongiel24 I agree with you. Both are the bad girls that you help. I call them redundant for that reason. Miranda is integral to the story for sure. Jack is not.

I see the female li's as a spectrum. Jack is the most hardcore with the most misfit history and appearance. Tali is the nice virginal butterflies and rainbows type. She presents no real personality roadblocks. Miranda falls in between, but closer to jack.

I think smudboy had something, when he suggested that combining several characters would have improved ME2 and reduced redundancy. His suggestions were: Miri + Jack = Miranda Lawson the genetically engineered Cerberus super biotic, and Zaeed + Jacob = Zaeed Massani, the veteran mercenary Cerberus operative.

Miranda and Jack are polar opposites in personality. The idea of merging them is ludicrous.

[Arijharn]

Instead of Jacob I reckon they should have given us Kai Leng.

[Jebel Krong]

a couple of things:
Deus Ex 1 is an EPIC game (and the sequel is not), i am fervently hoping #3 is a return to form: here.

Arijharn wrote...

I have to agree with Angmir; I don't dislike Tali and I think it's a bit of an over-reaction to extend the behaviour of some talimaniacs onto the character, however I do see Tali as more of a hero-worshipping character (and if I played a female shephard, I wouldn't romance Garrus either for pretty much the exact same reason).

Also, I don't understand the rationale between sexual encounters between differing species. Hell, I'd conspire to bring Tali and Kal'Reegar together, and I'd conspire to bring Garrus together with someone else, but jumping into bed with them just seems patently ridiculous to me personally. I mean, it seems to me that Tali was literally dying to get together with Shephard, and frankly I find that a wee bit disturbing.

I like Miranda because:
a) She's hot (Yvonne Strahovski). To be brutally honest I think people who say that looks don't matter are somewhat fudging the issue. It may not be the key ingredient to the equation, but if she isn't attractive enough to gain your attention in the first place, it isn't going to happen.
She seems to compliment Shephard's capabilities (i.e., not more of the same... this could be because I usually play a Vanguard or Adept... but she's principally an intellectual sort of character in my opinion)
c) She's obviously very intelligent. A lot smarter than Shephard in any case.
d) She's ruthless. I admit, I find a somewhat dominant personality (well someone who isn't afraid to go after what she wants) to be a 'bit' of a turn on.
e) She's sensible -- she tries to not let issues distract her.

Probably more than that too, but that's what I've identified so far.

true and true. the physical appearance probably makes up for a lot of her initial personality with the more casual audience as well (especially those familiar with yvonne/chuck). i'd also add that, as we've discussed before, the 'renegade' banter & more natural flow to the dialogue with her makes the relationship the best. She's also strong and not dominated by shepard, like tali is (even before you romance her). She's also a good fit for nearly all shepard's character classes and the most versatile squad-member as her powers straddle all enemy-types and are amongst the most effective (especially on higher difficulty levels).

Nightwriter wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

Conflict within a character makes and interesting character. Rhat is miranda. Conflict between two people in a relationship does not make for a good relationship unless the conflict can be resolved.

The Han/Leia and Thomas Crown Affair romances are a few of my favorites.

Both involve intense initial conflict that gives way to deeper and more meaningful feelings. That's how I like a romance to go.

i like the han & leia analogy, in thomas crown they aren't really 'antagonistic' or at least it's played very subtly. i'd also throw mr & mrs smith into the frame.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 septembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Jebel Krong]

btw yvonne was at the PETA awards on the 25th Sept:



more here

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
Miranda is not "damaged" in the way Jack is. That's why I deliberately used the word "flawed" and not "damaged".

If I may quote your post from page 256: "I've already admitted that she's a damaged person." That was what I objected to. And still do.

Miranda is capable of functioning "normally", Jack probably is not. She's dealt with her issues well enough to do her job and blend into society but I doubt she's truly happy with her life. She might tell herself she's found a purpose, but can we honestly say she's found fulfillment?  Granted most people will never find true happiness or fulfillment, but my point is that Miranda is an imperfect human being on the inside, despite being perfect on the outside.

Which means that she is, on the inside, just like anybody else. With one added issue related to her origins.

I call Miranda flawed because despite her engineered physical perfection, she remains human, with all the emotional needs that that entails.

How does that imply "flawed"? She's no more of that than any other human, and that's so obvious it doesn't need to be mentioned. 

[...]her background requires that her serious romantic partners take a different approach than they would towards someone with a more "conventional" upbringing and social life.

Yes. That's one reason of many why I like her and her romance. Not that the in-game romance shows a lot of that different approach, but I'm always aware of the requirement. I also dislike the conventional as a rule.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 septembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[Ieldra]

I just found this excellent fan art. I don't recall it having been posted before....







Artist link: http://pryce14.deviantart.com

[Caihn]

I think I already posted it, or maybe it was just in the french forum. I don't remember.

But it's a beautiful fan art. One of my favorite.

[Jebel Krong]

it's obviously based on JeanLuc761's render, and it has been posted a few times, but it's still a great pic.

[jtav]

I've seen it before but it's still very good. Anyway, I would call her damaged, but not broken. She can function. She does not engage in self-destructive behavior, nor does she allow her job to be affected. But she does seem tortured by her gifts. "The only thing I can take credit for are my mistakes" isn't healthy. She also seems to deny herself even harmless happiness (Oriana). The person she lavishes her affection on is someone she doesn't really know at all.

[t3HPrO]

Hey guys and girl, I just came up with a name for our beloved ingame couple. I dunno if anyone has said it before, but whatever. Whaddya think about 'Lawpard'? Good enough?

[jtav]

Please, no more portmanteau couple names. I get enough of them in fandom at large.



I'll be so glad when this bloody chapter is done.

[t3HPrO]

I find Miranda kind of sad. That's because despite all her accomplishments and her abilities, intelligence and looks, she still suffers from low self esteem even though she brags about her abilities and intelligence, which is just a smokescreen to cover up her low self esteem, most likely a remnant of her father never showing any love or approval toward her. And from what I've learnt in my psychology module, 96% of men and women who have never had a father's love or approval will suffer from low self esteem, among a host of other psyhological and physical problems. Thus, Miranda definitely fits that statistic. She's definitely emotionally damaged, even though she tries to hide it. And I love her despite that. Miri is my girl for life.

[Prudii Aden]

t3HPrO wrote...

Hey guys and girl, I just came up with a name for our beloved ingame couple. I dunno if anyone has said it before, but whatever. Whaddya think about 'Lawpard'? Good enough?

Dear Grud, no. No amalgamation. If nothing else, it's implying that they are the same person, when they quite blatently aren't. Lawson & Shepard works far better, as well as showing them respect.

[Throw_this_away]

Miriloo (Miri and sheploo)

[Caihn]

Prudii Aden wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

Hey guys and girl, I just came up with a name for our beloved ingame couple. I dunno if anyone has said it before, but whatever. Whaddya think about 'Lawpard'? Good enough?

Dear Grud, no. No amalgamation. If nothing else, it's implying that they are the same person, when they quite blatently aren't. Lawson & Shepard works far better, as well as showing them respect.

I don't think giving a name for a couple imply that they are the same person. Many people use "churah" for Chuck & Sarah couple, and I don't think someone consider them as one person. Everybody knows they are different, and I don't find this disrespectful.
I think it's cute.

If someone find a nice name for Miri and Shep, I wouldn't mind using it.
But "Lawpard" sounds weird, especially in french. 

Modifié par Yannkee, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:20 .

[t3HPrO]

@Prudii Aden

True. But they go so well and operate so well with each other they're almost one.

[t3HPrO]

@Yannkee

Why? I didn't take French, so idk.

[jtav]

They aren't one. I like the sound of Lawson and Shepard. Reminds me of Cagney and Lacey. They're partners. Or if not partners, at least equals.

[Ieldra]

t3HPrO wrote...
I find Miranda kind of sad. That's because despite all her accomplishments and her abilities, intelligence and looks, she still suffers from low self esteem even though she brags about her abilities and intelligence, which is just a smokescreen to cover up her low self esteem, most likely a remnant of her father never showing any love or approval toward her. And from what I've learnt in my psychology module, 96% of men and women who have never had a father's love or approval will suffer from low self esteem, among a host of other psyhological and physical problems. Thus, Miranda definitely fits that statistic. She's definitely emotionally damaged, even though she tries to hide it. And I love her despite that. Miri is my girl for life.

She'll get over it - she's special enough to eventually belong to the 4%  
Her low self-esteem is a result of her belief that her abilities don't really belong to her, so what she does with them doesn't count for her self-value. Which is, of course, crap, and she's smart enough to get that on an intellectual level. She just needs someone to say "you give your father too much credit" to her until she also believes it on an emotional level. OK, it might not be that easy, but you get what I mean.

BTW:
I hate that wordplay with names. It's disrespectful to the characters.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[GodWood]

Shepard Miranda.

Shepanda.

She-panda.

[jtav]

I just write out the names. Shepard/Miranda, Miranda/Kaidan, Miranda/Liara, etc. Less confusion.

[VivaLaNES]

I'm not really into mushing names together, I don't really think it knocks the characters..but it makes my mouth confused. Nicknames for individuals? Totally okay with that though.

[Caihn]

t3HPrO wrote...

@Prudii Aden
True. But they go so well and operate so well with each other they're almost one.

I think they are both strong and independant persons, but I agree that they are made for each other. It's very difficult to me to imagine them with someone else.

[Elyvern]

Personally speaking, Miranda personifies the phrase "what doesn't break you, makes you stronger." She is presented as a character who is physically perfect, but possessing a number of character flaws that offsets the potential stigma of perfection, and creates the fortunate effect of making her more convincing, more human and identifiable. But it seems like there's a tendency for people to read further into her background and pile a bigger list of psychological problems on her as if her existing character flaws aren't enough in the first place.

Why that neccessity? For example, the game has amply shown us that while she has certain self-esteem issues originating from her conception, it hasn't stopped her from recognising her own intelligence or capabilities. All she needs is vindication that she herself is the source of those strengths and not so much her father, and she's pretty much set.

fongiel24 wrote...
I'm not saying Miranda should be like Snow White and automatically trust the first person who knocks on her door, but even with those people she works with and interacts with regularly she seems slower to trust them or rely on them. I'm not speaking of her relationship with Shepard, I'm speaking of Wilson's tapes and Jacob's comments that they seem to know next to nothing about her. Considering Miranda worked with Wilson and Jacob for years, I suspect this is Miranda's standard MO and that her opening up to Shepard is the exception to the rule. In her profession a healthy degree of cynicism and distrust towards others is probably a good idea, but Miranda seems slow to trust even compared to others in her field. If she wanted to become TIW, I doubt she'd be much less of an enigma than TIM.

Yes, but when she commits her trust, it's a trust that's absolute and implicit. It's very telling that her comment prior to betraying TIM on the Collector's Base was keeping the base feels like a betrayal (I'm setting aside my reservations regarding the emotional decision she makes at that point for now). Also note how Shepard qualifies his relationship with Miranda to Liara in the same terms: "She has her issues but she trusts me and I care about her." It seems that trust is presented as the first yardstick in becoming close to Miranda. TIM had her trust and lost it (if you're paragon) and by the end of ME2, Shepard has earned it.

I call Miranda flawed because despite her engineered physical perfection, she remains human, with all the emotional needs that that entails. She might be unusually strong, but human beings are social animals that aren't designed to go through life in emotional isolation. Given her childhood, her being forced to run from her father, then her professional association with Cerberus as a top operative, I doubt Miranda has ever had a chance to build any kind of an emotional support network of friends and family. While the absence of such a network would train her to become self-reliant and independent, it would also likely mean leading a very lonely existence. I'm not saying she'll need years of intense psychotherapy to become "normal" (whatever that means), but her background requires that her serious romantic partners take a different approach than they would towards someone with a more "conventional" upbringing and social life.

I agree with you that it's very likely there's a lack of close emotional relationships in her life. The problem about lamenting that she leads a lonely existence is you can't mourn the loss of something you don't even have in the first place. The realisation that her life may be lonely mightn't occur to Miranda at all, and as far as she is concerned, she isn't in such a bad place at all. You're right that since she doesn't have a sense of what constitutes healthy emotional relationships, it would probably take a special kind of person to make a serious romantic work with her. And any romantic partners she has that succeeds in getting past the trust barrier will probably be navigating the rest of the way blind along with her. But she's also strong enough that she will get on with her life just fine without romantic entanglements. It will be a loss, but not a devastating one.

[Pinkflamingo22]

http://fav.me/d2zfbd...nda lawson&qo=5

Modifié par Pinkflamingo22, 27 septembre 2010 - 05:17 .