15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Aedan1992]

Yannkee wrote...

I think they are both strong and independant persons, but I agree that they are made for each other. It's very difficult to me to imagine them with someone else.

True the don't need each other but the want each other. 

[jtav]

No, you don't have to play Miranda's white knight in either the physical or emotional sense. She doesn't need Shepard. She can want him, but the world won't end if you don't romance her. I prefer her elsewhere. I'm not writing a 25,000 word story for my health. But hers is the best of the lot.

[Aedan1992]

jtav wrote...

No, you don't have to play Miranda's white knight in either the physical or emotional sense. She doesn't need Shepard. She can want him, but the world won't end if you don't romance her. I prefer her elsewhere. I'm not writing a 25,000 word story for my health. But hers is the best of the lot.

I can understand that you would want her to be elsewere, and maybe i was a bit to dramatic about what i said. But to me they seem to be the perfect couple. And the will always be.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If I may quote your post from page 256: "I've already admitted that she's a damaged person." That was what I objected to. And still do.

Poor choice of words on my part in the former example then. She's flawed, but not damaged in the sense that she needs someone to come along and fix her.

Miranda is capable of functioning "normally", Jack probably is not. She's dealt with her issues well enough to do her job and blend into society but I doubt she's truly happy with her life. She might tell herself she's found a purpose, but can we honestly say she's found fulfillment?  Granted most people will never find true happiness or fulfillment, but my point is that Miranda is an imperfect human being on the inside, despite being perfect on the outside.

Which means that she is, on the inside, just like anybody else. With one added issue related to her origins.

Yes, she's similar to most people and thus not to be put on a pedestal as a perfect LI. My original point remains that she's not perfect and thus I have no problem with people criticizing her.

I call Miranda flawed because despite her engineered physical perfection, she remains human, with all the emotional needs that that entails.

How does that imply "flawed"? She's no more of that than any other human, and that's so obvious it doesn't need to be mentioned. 

She's flawed because despite having the same emotional needs as everyone else, those needs have rarely been met. She never had the necessary emotional support as a child or an adolescent and she likely never got it as an adult either. Lack of support harms emotional development just as much as lack of nutrition harms physical development. Seen from that perspective, Miranda is "flawed" because she was never provided with the environment human children require to develop.

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

Personally speaking, Miranda personifies the phrase "what doesn't break you, makes you stronger." She is presented as a character who is physically perfect, but possessing a number of character flaws that offsets the potential stigma of perfection, and creates the fortunate effect of making her more convincing, more human and identifiable. But it seems like there's a tendency for people to read further into her background and pile a bigger list of psychological problems on her as if her existing character flaws aren't enough in the first place.

Why that neccessity? For example, the game has amply shown us that while she has certain self-esteem issues originating from her conception, it hasn't stopped her from recognising her own intelligence or capabilities. All she needs is vindication that she herself is the source of those strengths and not so much her father, and she's pretty much set.

The problem is that while yes, the idiom "what doesn't break you, makes you stronger" holds true, the thinking process that compels individuals to adapt in a way that makes them "stronger" can also make them harder and colder, possibly even manifesting in bitterness. I think with Miranda you can clearly see that on Lazarus station.

While Miranda's self-esteem issues have never prevented her from doing her job (and doing it extremely well), it seems evident that they have prevented her from forming close relationships. Her issues don't affect her professionally, but I'd say they definitely affect her personal life.

Yes, but when she commits her trust, it's a trust that's absolute and implicit. It's very telling that her comment prior to betraying TIM on the Collector's Base was keeping the base feels like a betrayal (I'm setting aside my reservations regarding the emotional decision she makes at that point for now). Also note how Shepard qualifies his relationship with Miranda to Liara in the same terms: "She has her issues but she trusts me and I care about her." It seems that trust is presented as the first yardstick in becoming close to Miranda. TIM had her trust and lost it (if you're paragon) and by the end of ME2, Shepard has earned it.

Miranda is an extremely loyal and devoted person to those who earn her trust, but unfortunately it seems very few people can ever manage that. Her cool personality acts as a wall of pikes, keeping everyone at "safe" distance. Very few people have the perseverence to make the effort to break through that wall, making it difficult for Miranda to form many real friendships.

I agree with you that it's very likely there's a lack of close emotional relationships in her life. The problem about lamenting that she leads a lonely existence is you can't mourn the loss of something you don't even have in the first place. The realisation that her life may be lonely mightn't occur to Miranda at all, and as far as she is concerned, she isn't in such a bad place at all. You're right that since she doesn't have a sense of what constitutes healthy emotional relationships, it would probably take a special kind of person to make a serious romantic work with her. And any romantic partners she has that succeeds in getting past the trust barrier will probably be navigating the rest of the way blind along with her. But she's also strong enough that she will get on with her life just fine without romantic entanglements. It will be a loss, but not a devastating one.

While Miranda can't mourn what she doesn't have, she can still be affected negatively by it. Human beings weren't designed to be solitary creatures. Miranda could get through life perfectly fine without romantic entanglements, but getting through life without any close social bonds isn't a healthy way to live.

I think the biggest problem for Miranda is that she can't necessarily "fix" her problems like "normal" people can. For most lonely people, it's a matter of realizing that the world isn't out to get you, there are nice people out there, and you just have to let down your guard a bit and let them in so they can get to know you. Unfortunately for Miranda, she's a top level operative for a terrorist organization and she's still being threatened by a psychopathic tycoon father. What works for normal people will get her killed - she'll always have to maintain some defences and treat others with a healthy degree of skepticism. What she can do though, is lower her guard a little towards people she's realized pose a minimal threat to her. To her credit, I think she takes this approach with Shepard, even before they begin flirting.

[Caihn]

Aedan1992 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

I think they are both strong and independant persons, but I agree that they are made for each other. It's very difficult to me to imagine them with someone else.

True the don't need each other but the want each other. 

QFT

[jtav]

Very nice screenshots.



Here's a less weighty question: does anyone else feel Miranda's loyalty power doesn't suit her. I would have swapped hers with Jack's. Modifying bullets seems more her style.

[fongiel24]

Slam always felt like a gratuitous display of biotic power. It's inferior to pull or throw because its window for combination with other biotic powers is so tiny. It's basically just a relatively high-damage power that only works against unshielded enemies and offers no tactical advantages. Biotic ammo does seem like a more appropriate bonus power for Miranda. Another bonus power I think fits her character is Liara's Stasis. Using it requires forethought due to its diminishing effect and it does no damage, yet can potentially be a life-saving or fight-winning power all on its own. I can also easily picture Miranda using it in her missions for Cerberus as a kind of non-lethal, stealthy takedown.

Modifié par fongiel24, 27 septembre 2010 - 08:51 .

[Ieldra]

@fongiel, Elyvern:
I do not think that having few emotional relationships is necessarily a bad thing, nor do I think that being slow to trust is a flaw as long as it doesn't prevent you from having *any* emotional relationships. I think in this regard, Miranda is perfectly fine, she's just more reserved than most people. Its one aspect of her I like very much and wouldn't like to see change. In ME2 she forms a relationship with Shepard and makes contact with Oriana, isn't that quite enough for one game?

@jtav:
I'd have given her Pull or Throw. She has advanced biotics for a human. That should show. An ammo power wouldn't fit her. Apart from biotics, the Infiltrator's stealth power would fit.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 septembre 2010 - 08:52 .

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@fongiel, Elyvern:
I do not think that having few emotional relationships is necessarily a bad thing, nor do I think that being slow to trust is a flaw as long as it doesn't prevent you from having *any* emotional relationships. I think in this regard, Miranda is perfectly fine, she's just more reserved than most people. Its one aspect of her I like very much and wouldn't like to see change. In ME2 she forms a relationship with Shepard and makes contact with Oriana, isn't that quite enough for one game?

@jtav:
I'd have given her Pull or Throw. She has advanced biotics for a human. That should show. An ammo power wouldn't fit her. Apart from biotics, the Infiltrator's stealth power would fit.

I think the reason I tend to take the view of Miranda that I do is that I have an idea of what I think Miranda was like pre-Shepard that's based entirely on my own imagination. My view of Miranda is based on an amalgamation of available ME material and my own ideas, which make me ascribe more serious emotional and personal problems to Miranda than other people might.

Regarding Shepard and Oriana, the problem is that Shepard seems capable of getting through to anyone, even a borderline sociopath like Jack. For that reason, I don't count Shepard. I don't count Oriana either because her first (and second) instinct was to just walk away. She had to be pushed by Shepard to even approach her sister. When she's asked if she'll keep in touch with her sister later, she still seems very uncertain. I think Miranda will always love her sister and look out for her, but I'm not so sure she'll ever establish a very close relationship with Oriana.

If we include "standard" powers in addition to exclusively bonus powers, there's quite a few I can see Miranda having. Given her technical training, field experience, and biotic abilities, I think most of ME2's tech and biotic powers can fit her character from a story standpoint.

[jtav]

I think the dossier confirms she's trying to have a close relationship with Oriana. But her establishing those relationships is conditional. Play your Shepard a certain way and she has no one. You don't even have to be cruel. Just a FemShep who doesn't ask about Oriana a second time.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@fongiel, Elyvern:
I do not think that having few emotional relationships is necessarily a bad thing, nor do I think that being slow to trust is a flaw as long as it doesn't prevent you from having *any* emotional relationships. I think in this regard, Miranda is perfectly fine, she's just more reserved than most people. Its one aspect of her I like very much and wouldn't like to see change. In ME2 she forms a relationship with Shepard and makes contact with Oriana, isn't that quite enough for one game?

I don't have issues either. My gripe is the tendency to pile on a crapload of emotional baggage on her far beyond what is officially canon already. It doesn't mean just because she's had an isolated childhood and likely faced some sort of abuse under her father that she'd be psychologically scarred and needs assistance. Alot of people in the world have horrific pasts, but they move on and live as regular a life as they can. A Miranda that's special because she's damaged by her past isn't someone that interests me. It's a characterisation gimmick that's used so often it's trite. What makes her special for me is as she says in her LM, her father has hurt her, but didn't break her. She's obviously made peace with her personal history, and knows she's more than just the product of her past, although realistically she cannot distant herself entirely away from it. 

While I do like her emotional reservation, ME2 has shown that if Shepard romances her, her disposition does changes accordingly. It's likely she becomes more open and more friendly to people. Being with Shepard must open her eyes to new emotional possibilities, going beyond the professional trust she already knows, and maybe even introducing the issue of emotional dependency. Oriana also comes across as the opposite of her, someone with an effusive and engaging personality. From the SB chat dossier, I feel it's likely Miranda will become closer to her sister, again opening her eyes to a new realm of emotional possibilities. How or if all this will be reflected in ME3 is yet to be seen, but it would be gross negligence if we don't see a change, although I hope it isn't one that totally takes away the cool psychological autonomy that so characterises Miranda.

Modifié par Elyvern, 27 septembre 2010 - 10:39 .

[enayasoul]

On Miranda's loyalty mission did you have her kill Niket, or did your shepard stop her. I've done both ways... But the more I think about it, maybe having her not shoot him, and believing Niket might be redeaming himself? The better choice? I just don't know. Both are good options but she seemed so bitter when she was glad she took him down and blaming it on her father. lol.

[Arijharn]

I'm pretty sure that Miranda suffers from the Hedgehog's Dilemma in all honesty.

[jtav]

I had to Google it, but I would agree. She wants intimacy on one level, but the very nature of her existence means she has to be aloof and somewhat paranoid to survive. The one person she does trust betrays her. She has to be coaxed into a relationship with her sister. It's not her introversion that concerns me. It's that she can end the game without any confidants at all and a history of keeping others at a distance.

[jlb524]

enayasoul wrote...

On Miranda's loyalty mission did you have her kill Niket, or did your shepard stop her. I've done both ways... But the more I think about it, maybe having her not shoot him, and believing Niket might be redeaming himself? The better choice? I just don't know. Both are good options but she seemed so bitter when she was glad she took him down and blaming it on her father. lol.

I always stop her, tbh.   I play the more Paragon character, so I prefer this course of action.  I'm not sure which is 'better', though.  I like to think she should give Niket a second chance, and I would also like to believe he wouldn't betray her again.

On the otherhand, killing him ensures that her sister will be safe from her father.  It's a tough call.

[Arijharn]

I prevent her killing Niket as well for pretty much the reasons that Shephard states himself. Niket was the childhood friend of hers, it would devastate her even though she would never admit it.



Besides, if her father actually has the resources it is implied with ("You pissed off the richest guy in the galaxy lady. I don't know what your collateral is...") then while Niket is probably the easiest place to start looking, I doubt it could be the only avenue. Presumably, dear dad can bribe traffic co-ordinators of Illium, cross reference for transit disturbances and even gain knowledge about Captain Enayla's last movements to gain a rough outline of what things could look like before checking CCTV etc.

[jlb524]

Wouldn't killing Niket be the logical choice, though? Even if there are plenty of other resources, that's one less that Miranda would have to worry about.



Though, I agree she shouldn't.

[Arijharn]

Hmm, I don't know, I guess it's because I don't think Niket really matters other than to Miranda that I save him for Miranda's sake (and not his own). Does that make any sense?

[jtav]

I'd prefer the Paragon interrupt be Shepard simply asking her what she wants to do, Let her make the decision and live with the consequences.

[PWENER]

It's better if she doesn't kill him. She feels bad for doing it if you let her (she tries to hide it). You shape Miranda throught the entire game. Consider her a small child lost in a darkforest. Will you help her escape or abandon her?

[jlb524]

Arijharn wrote...

Hmm, I don't know, I guess it's because I don't think Niket really matters other than to Miranda that I save him for Miranda's sake (and not his own). Does that make any sense?

Yes, that makes sense.

But, if he survives, are you concerned that her father could use this emotional attatchement Miranda has to Niket against her? 

I don't like the idea of her killing him either (though, I'd prefer if she choose like jtav said) and am just playing devil's advocate and thinking like a pure Renegade.

[Arijharn]

jlb524 wrote...

But, if he survives, are you concerned that her father could use this emotional attatchement Miranda has to Niket against her? 

Not really, because the emotional state has been dampened somewhat by Niket's own previous actions, coupled with the fact that Shephard has essentially replaced Niket's role now (whether via friendship or romance) as well. 

Besides, what can her father do to a dead man?

[snfonseka]

enayasoul wrote...

On Miranda's loyalty mission did you have her kill Niket, or did your shepard stop her. I've done both ways... But the more I think about it, maybe having her not shoot him, and believing Niket might be redeaming himself? The better choice? I just don't know. Both are good options but she seemed so bitter when she was glad she took him down and blaming it on her father. lol.

oh, please......

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

I think the dossier confirms she's trying to have a close relationship with Oriana. But her establishing those relationships is conditional. Play your Shepard a certain way and she has no one. You don't even have to be cruel. Just a FemShep who doesn't ask about Oriana a second time.

I think she's trying to maintain contact with Oriana, but beyond that I believe she truly doesn't know what kind of relationship she wants with her sister. Because of her job, the enemies she's made, and the risk her father could track her, Miranda can't physically hang out with her sister all that often and it's hard to build a close relationship if your only contact is over the phone or through extranet chat. Miranda is tough and experienced in so many areas but when it comes to forming relationships, she's a n00b.

enayasoul wrote...

On Miranda's loyalty mission did you have her kill Niket, or did your shepard stop her. I've done both ways... But the more I think about it, maybe having her not shoot him, and believing Niket might be redeaming himself? The better choice? I just don't know. Both are good options but she seemed so bitter when she was glad she took him down and blaming it on her father. lol.

I think leaving Niket is a better option for Miranda, but I still usually let her shoot him. Niket is Miranda's oldest friend and despite Miranda's icy facade, she's still human inside and blowing him away has got to leave some scars.

The reason I don't save Niket is I really don't like Shepard's interrupt. It doesn't make sense tactically in that situation and the way he does it doesn't feel right given the kinds of relationships between him, Miranda, and Niket. Tactically, both sides are in a Mexican standoff. By lowering his gun and knocking Miranda's away, he's left the third squadmate as the only one pointing a weapon at the bad guys. If the shooting starts suddenly, Shepard and Miranda are sitting ducks if the third squadmate gets taken down. My other  problem with Shepard physically stopping Miranda is that his actions imply he doesn't trust Miranda to make a decision for herself, despite Shepard only having known about her history with Niket for a few hours (at most). I really wish there had been an option like jtav suggested, where Shepard could just ask Miranda if she's sure about killing Niket.

Modifié par fongiel24, 28 septembre 2010 - 04:27 .