15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
I don't have issues either. My gripe is the tendency to pile on a crapload of emotional baggage on her far beyond what is officially canon already. It doesn't mean just because she's had an isolated childhood and likely faced some sort of abuse under her father that she'd be psychologically scarred and needs assistance. Alot of people in the world have horrific pasts, but they move on and live as regular a life as they can. A Miranda that's special because she's damaged by her past isn't someone that interests me. It's a characterisation gimmick that's used so often it's trite.

Exactly this. She already has the confirmed problems with the origin of her improved abilities, and now the infertility. We really don't need to add to it. Actually, IMO the infertility was already entirely unnecessary, but I guess I'm a minority thinking that.. 

What makes her special for me is as she says in her LM, her father has hurt her, but didn't break her. She's obviously made peace with her personal history, and knows she's more than just the product of her past, although realistically she cannot distant herself entirely away from it.

Does she? I think regarding her father's emotional abuse, overly controlling ways or whatever it was he did, that's in the past, and she's dealt with it as well as anyone can. But she hasn't dealt as well with her own origin as an engineered human, the way she talks about how her father paid for every one of her gifts, as if it mattered that he did for defining what she is for herself. I do think she's smart enough to figure out for herself that it doesn't, but it also seems that her mind is somewhat closed to that possibility when we meet her. Which I find somewhat surprising for a woman that intelligent. The only explanation I can come up with is that before, she didn't talk about it to anyone for a long time, nor even think about it much. That she brings it up in her conversations with Shepard (in the pre-romance conversations) might be an indication that she's finally ready to confront it. 

While I do like her emotional reservation, ME2 has shown that if Shepard romances her, her disposition does changes accordingly. It's likely she becomes more open and more friendly to people. Being with Shepard must open her eyes to new emotional possibilities, going beyond the professional trust she already knows, and maybe even introducing the issue of emotional dependency. Oriana also comes across as the opposite of her, someone with an effusive and engaging personality. From the SB chat dossier, I feel it's likely Miranda will become closer to her sister, again opening her eyes to a new realm of emotional possibilities. How or if all this will be reflected in ME3 is yet to be seen, but it would be gross negligence if we don't see a change, although I hope it isn't one that totally takes away the cool psychological autonomy that so characterises Miranda.

Of course we should see a change. But there's a great difference between being cold to people and being friendly but keeping an emotional distance. I can even see her joking with people in future, but her jokes, too, would be subtle, informed by detached observation and reflection and possibly not even comprehensible to some. "Psychologiccal autonomy" is a very appropriate way to describe what I would hate to see lost in ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 septembre 2010 - 07:36 .

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...
On Miranda's loyalty mission did you have her kill Niket, or did your shepard stop her. I've done both ways... But the more I think about it, maybe having her not shoot him, and believing Niket might be redeaming himself? The better choice? I just don't know. Both are good options but she seemed so bitter when she was glad she took him down and blaming it on her father. lol.

I have a problem with Shepard interrupting her. It would be OK if he made her think about it for a few more seconds before making her decision, but the decision should be hers, not his. Also, the reasoning for letting him live is crap, completely unconvincing after he just betrayed her. I did it both ways, but the most natural way to let this play out is to let her shoot Niket.

[Ieldra]

PWENER wrote...
It's better if she doesn't kill him. She feels bad for doing it if you let her (she tries to hide it). You shape Miranda throught the entire game. Consider her a small child lost in a darkforest. Will you help her escape or abandon her?

Except that she isn't a small child lost in a forest. She's a grown-up and competent woman forced to deal with the fact that her only childhood friend betrayed her. Killing Niket is a valid choice. She also feels bad if you interrupt her: "Why didn't you let me kill him? I could have handled that."

And to add to that: the elevator conversation after the encounter (look it up in the online dialogue tree) plays out so much more naturally if Miranda killed him. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the most appropriate choice is to let Miranda kill Niket.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 septembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Jebel Krong]

i never leave niket alive - the betrayal was too great and the future risk outweighs the benefits, plus the interrupt makes shepard look like a subservient wuss. miranda would never have trusted him again anyway. the cut-scene with the asari doesn't flow as well after, but the conversations with miranda at the end of the mission certainly work better if you killed nike (and make her tentative connection to Oriana all the more touching because of what she had to lose to protect her).

as for the infertility: unless it's brought up again (and i sincerely hope it's never even mentioned or hinted at again) then i still consider it non-canon and a non-issue, like the rest of the dossiers.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 28 septembre 2010 - 08:05 .

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Exactly this. She already has the confirmed problems with the origin of her improved abilities, and now the infertility. We really don't need to add to it. Actually, IMO the infertility was already entirely unnecessary, but I guess I'm a minority thinking that.. 

I don't like the infertility thing in and of itself, but I like how it adds 'complexity' to the character in question. I think it works because it pretty much strikes at the core of who Miranda is, and probably much more effectively if it was just 'plain' cancer given the extent of her genetic tampering. Miranda is the epitome of a designer baby after all, she wasn't born and then modified, she probably wasn't even born with a surrogate mother involved (would Mr. X trust a woman to carry his child to term? What if she started to ask for more cash or even 'sell her story'?)

But like all trials involving my favourite characters, I want Miranda to overcome her issues and while being able to conceive (if she wants too) would be a good answer, I think the emotional growth of Miranda coming to terms and even accepting this 'flaw' to be (almost) satisfying.

[Jebel Krong]

hmm personally i hope that mass effect 3 focuses on dealing with the reapers, rather than the more soap-opera of who can have babies with whom... as worryingly seems to be the trend from LoSB. i like character growth, i don't like the obsession with having children in my sf.

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
hmm personally i hope that mass effect 3 focuses on dealing with the reapers, rather than the more soap-opera of who can have babies with whom... as worryingly seems to be the trend from LoSB. i like character growth, i don't like the obsession with having children in my sf.

Except that, as I've explained before, this issue is more than soap opera for me. It's tied to the bigger picture of where I'd like "my" ME universe to go - particularly one where artificial genetic adaptation is seen as a possible path of advancement for humanity. But I agree that as long as I can reasonably imagine her condition gone at some point in the future, it would be desirable to see its appearance in ME3 minimized as far as possible.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 septembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Arijharn]

I don't see why the game can't deal with the Reaper threat and not marginalize your relationships amongst your squad mates though. I would imagine that Shephard would suffer a great deal of trauma in me3 if only because Harbinger makes it a priority to screw with our hero on a frequent basis... therefore I would hope that friendships he gains will mean something.



In fact, considering the amount of time that ME2 takes in helping out and getting to know your squad mates I think limited character development with your squad mates etc would be a distinctly bad thing.



Sorry, tangents.

[snfonseka]

jtav wrote...

Very nice screenshots.

Here's a less weighty question: does anyone else feel Miranda's loyalty power doesn't suit her. I would have swapped hers with Jack's. Modifying bullets seems more her style.

I rarely use that power, because I can't see any uniqueness in that. It is equal to combination of push and pull, where instead of getting push back, the enemy is getting puch down... or something like that. I think wasp ammor is good for Miranda as you mentined...

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Exactly this. She already has the confirmed problems with the origin of her improved abilities, and now the infertility. We really don't need to add to it. Actually, IMO the infertility was already entirely unnecessary, but I guess I'm a minority thinking that.. 

I'm not exactly happy about that either, but I am holding on to the hope that her infertility is further explored and maybe resolved in ME3. If it turns out to be just a bit of information tossed out like an afterthought without any attempt to revisit it, then I'd be mighty pissed.

Does she? I think regarding her father's emotional abuse, overly controlling ways or whatever it was he did, that's in the past, and she's dealt with it as well as anyone can. But she hasn't dealt as well with her own origin as an engineered human, the way she talks about how her father paid for every one of her gifts, as if it mattered that he did for defining what she is for herself. I do think she's smart enough to figure out for herself that it doesn't, but it also seems that her mind is somewhat closed to that possibility when we meet her. Which I find somewhat surprising for a woman that intelligent. The only explanation I can come up with is that before, she didn't talk about it to anyone for a long time, nor even think about it much. That she brings it up in her conversations with Shepard (in the pre-romance conversations) might be an indication that she's finally ready to confront it. 

I didn't make my point clear. That was what I meant when I say realistically she cannot divorce herself entirely from her father's actions. My take is there is the possibility she may never be reconciled about her engineered origins. Not when she has a sister whose existence will keep reminding her they are both synthetically created for a specific purpose, and how Oriana was meant to replace her. The impression I get is her drive to fight for the cause of humanity--a goal bigger than life--is her way of creating meaning to her existence, and it's a need more primal than say someone conceived through natural means. It's also possible like you said that she's on the crux of confronting that issue, and that one way to vindication would be when she succeeds in some monumental task which would put to rest the point that it's what she does with her father's gifts that matters, not that she has them in the first place.

[Elyvern]

enayasoul wrote...

On Miranda's loyalty mission did you have her kill Niket, or did your shepard stop her. I've done both ways... But the more I think about it, maybe having her not shoot him, and believing Niket might be redeaming himself? The better choice? I just don't know. Both are good options but she seemed so bitter when she was glad she took him down and blaming it on her father. lol.

I'm very, very divided over this. I agree with what other posters have said in that, Shepard actually doesn't have the right to physically stop her from taking that action because he's only known about Niket in the last hour and this is something deeply personal for Miranda.

What really bugs me if I let her kill Niket is she ends up making excuses about how he commited suicide by letting her kill him, or that everything is the fault of her father. She is someone who harbours very few illusions about her sense of morality or otherwise, and to resort to alibis to explain an act of killing someone that once mattered to her just feels awfully OOC to me. You can chalk it down to the fact that she was emotional distraught at that point in time, but her lines in that scene is on par with what she says if you choose to destroy the base at the end of the game--almost character derailment for me.

Since my first few playthroughs were paragon-ish, I've never had to encounter those lines before, but a recent renegade playthrough really took me aback.

Modifié par Elyvern, 28 septembre 2010 - 09:34 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

ieldra2 wrote...
Does she? I think regarding her father's emotional abuse, overly controlling ways or whatever it was he did, that's in the past, and she's dealt with it as well as anyone can. But she hasn't dealt as well with her own origin as an engineered human, the way she talks about how her father paid for every one of her gifts, as if it mattered that he did for defining what she is for herself. I do think she's smart enough to figure out for herself that it doesn't, but it also seems that her mind is somewhat closed to that possibility when we meet her. Which I find somewhat surprising for a woman that intelligent. The only explanation I can come up with is that before, she didn't talk about it to anyone for a long time, nor even think about it much. That she brings it up in her conversations with Shepard (in the pre-romance conversations) might be an indication that she's finally ready to confront it. 

I didn't make my point clear. That was what I meant when I say realistically she cannot divorce herself entirely from her father's actions. My take is there is the possibility she may never be reconciled about her engineered origins. Not when she has a sister whose existence will keep reminding her they are both synthetically created for a specific purpose, and how Oriana was meant to replace her. The impression I get is her drive to fight for the cause of humanity--a goal bigger than life--is her way of creating meaning to her existence, and it's a need more primal than say someone conceived through natural means. It's also possible like you said that she's on the crux of confronting that issue, and that one way to vindication would be when she succeeds in some monumental task which would put to rest the point that it's what she does with her father's gifts that matters, not that she has them in the first place.

My take on it is slightly different. While I wouldn't mind your scenario, I think it's important to note she shouldn't need any vindication. If it turns out necessary anyway, then it won't be necessarily a monumental task, but one she knows her father would never want her to do. That's why I believe keeping Oriana away from him in her loyalty mission is an important step for her coming to terms with her origins. She even hints at it in the elevator conversation:

Shepard: You still have Oriana.
Miranda: My father didn't give her to me. I rescued her.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 septembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[t3HPrO]

I usually stop Miri from killing Niket as I can't bear to see her distraught and trying to justify and action she didn't want to commit. And I agree with you Jeb. I find Miri's infertility non-canon cause it's just pure boll**ks that's in the message.

[t3HPrO]

And yes, I will be covering LotSB in the coming chapter of my fic. So stay tuned guys and gal!

[Elyvern]

t3HPrO wrote...

I usually stop Miri from killing Niket as I can't bear to see her distraught and trying to justify and action she didn't want to commit.

I think I must agree with you on this. It's probably what I'd do for all my future playthroughs. It does seem like she was desperately trying to justify an act she didn't want to commit in hindsight. It's the only way to account for her irrational and highly emotional reasoning for killing Niket and not considering it character derailment.

Modifié par Elyvern, 28 septembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Angmir]

t3HPrO wrote...
And I agree with you Jeb. I find Miri's infertility non-canon cause it's just pure boll**ks that's in the message.

A sfar as you can Consider true whatever you like, hell you can reject that Reapers exist, but it wont change the fact that they do exist (in ME World at least), and so that Miranda is in fact infertile. well it's been just this one message, but a lot of things about ME universe are based about single piece of information - and usually they are reafirmed later.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...
I usually stop Miri from killing Niket as I can't bear to see her distraught and trying to justify and action she didn't want to commit.

I think I must agree with you on this. It's probably what I'd do for all my future playthroughs. It does seem like she was desperately trying to justify an act she didn't want to commit in hindsight. It's the only way to account for her irrational and highly emotional reasoning for killing Niket and not considering it character derailment.

Can't say I agree about that. Her reasoning for killing Niket is absolutely, well, reasonable. In the following elevator conversation, Shepard can say "You're not responsible for his death", to which she replies "Of course I am. But it's not my fault [insert: that I had to do it], nor is it Niket's, really. My father takes the blame... for all of this." I can't see anything OOC with that.

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...
I usually stop Miri from killing Niket as I can't bear to see her distraught and trying to justify and action she didn't want to commit.

I think I must agree with you on this. It's probably what I'd do for all my future playthroughs. It does seem like she was desperately trying to justify an act she didn't want to commit in hindsight. It's the only way to account for her irrational and highly emotional reasoning for killing Niket and not considering it character derailment.

Can't say I agree about that. Her reasoning for killing Niket is absolutely, well, reasonable. In the following elevator conversation, Shepard can say "You're not responsible for his death", to which she replies "Of course I am. But it's not my fault [insert: that I had to do it], nor is it Niket's, really. My father takes the blame... for all of this." I can't see anything OOC with that.

Maybe it isn't OOC, but you and I both know she's over-rationalizing things not for Shephard, but for herself.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
Maybe it isn't OOC, but you and I both know she's over-rationalizing things not for Shephard, but for herself.

Maybe. But I really don't like the interrupt, and I still think killing Niket is a valid decision for her. Even if she comes to agonize over it later, I'm not sure she'll exactly regret it.

BTW, here's another piece of evidence she's begun to deal with her "origin problem":

"As much as he tried to turn me into exactly what he wanted... I'm my own person."

This is also from the elevator conversation. After that, going back to "The only things I can take credit for are my mistakes" in the second romance conversation seems rather strange.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 septembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Arijharn]

Intellectually she's dealt with it, but emotionally she hasn't because she constantly brings it up. Emotions don't have anything to do with rational decisions, which is probably why they're called emotions to begin with.



She knows she is intelligent, she knows she should take the credit for her accomplishments, but she doesn't because she feels she doesn't deserve them. It takes the exceptional Shephard to help her see this though (and therefore is it any wonder then that she falls in love with him? -- Shephard is practically the perfect bloody human specimen after all).

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
Intellectually she's dealt with it, but emotionally she hasn't because she constantly brings it up. Emotions don't have anything to do with rational decisions, which is probably why they're called emotions to begin with.

She knows she is intelligent, she knows she should take the credit for her accomplishments, but she doesn't because she feels she doesn't deserve them. It takes the exceptional Shephard to help her see this though (and therefore is it any wonder then that she falls in love with him? -- Shephard is practically the perfect bloody human specimen after all).

Makes me wonder if he's engineered, too. Default Shep has eyes that arouse my suspicion given the information in the Codex.

Apart from that, no, I don't like the assumption she needs Shepard to see her problems through. I very much suspect an extended talk with her sister would do the job as well, since she shares Miranda's origin and doesn't seem to have these problems.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...
I usually stop Miri from killing Niket as I can't bear to see her distraught and trying to justify and action she didn't want to commit.

I think I must agree with you on this. It's probably what I'd do for all my future playthroughs. It does seem like she was desperately trying to justify an act she didn't want to commit in hindsight. It's the only way to account for her irrational and highly emotional reasoning for killing Niket and not considering it character derailment.

Can't say I agree about that. Her reasoning for killing Niket is absolutely, well, reasonable. In the following elevator conversation, Shepard can say "You're not responsible for his death", to which she replies "Of course I am. But it's not my fault [insert: that I had to do it], nor is it Niket's, really. My father takes the blame... for all of this." I can't see anything OOC with that.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree here. To get to the conversation you pointed out, we'd still have to go through the part where she says Niket committed suicide by letting her kill him. I can't buy that reasoning as anything but out of character unless I accept that she was sufficiently distraught and failed to notice the irony and dare I say, hypocrisy of that particular statement.  

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Intellectually she's dealt with it, but emotionally she hasn't because she constantly brings it up. Emotions don't have anything to do with rational decisions, which is probably why they're called emotions to begin with.

She knows she is intelligent, she knows she should take the credit for her accomplishments, but she doesn't because she feels she doesn't deserve them. It takes the exceptional Shephard to help her see this though (and therefore is it any wonder then that she falls in love with him? -- Shephard is practically the perfect bloody human specimen after all).

Makes me wonder if he's engineered, too. Default Shep has eyes that arouse my suspicion given the information in the Codex.

Apart from that, no, I don't like the assumption she needs Shepard to see her problems through. I very much suspect an extended talk with her sister would do the job as well, since she shares Miranda's origin and doesn't seem to have these problems.

She probably doesn't need Shephard, she wants him as she see's a kindred spirit. She see's herself as engineered (for perfection), and well, Shephard to her is naturally perfect (the three different origin stories for Shephard doesn't make it very likely at all that Shephard was in some way genetically engineered. Why would a family that could afford to genetically engineer their son live on a remote colony world like Mindoir? Why would a genetically engineered Shephard be cast out of his family and forced to live on the streets of Earth?) Sorry, but I don't buy it at all.

Shephard is an all-conquering hero with probably something like a 'divine' birthright thrust upon him by the fates to lead the galaxy to break it out of its cycle of extinction. He has seen and performed actions that would make action movie stars cower in fear and he obviously has big brass ba-... you get the idea. Basically all this means she'd invariably open up to him imo.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...
I usually stop Miri from killing Niket as I can't bear to see her distraught and trying to justify and action she didn't want to commit.

I think I must agree with you on this. It's probably what I'd do for all my future playthroughs. It does seem like she was desperately trying to justify an act she didn't want to commit in hindsight. It's the only way to account for her irrational and highly emotional reasoning for killing Niket and not considering it character derailment.

Can't say I agree about that. Her reasoning for killing Niket is absolutely, well, reasonable. In the following elevator conversation, Shepard can say "You're not responsible for his death", to which she replies "Of course I am. But it's not my fault [insert: that I had to do it], nor is it Niket's, really. My father takes the blame... for all of this." I can't see anything OOC with that.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree here. To get to the conversation you pointed out, we'd still have to go through the part where she says Niket committed suicide by letting her kill him. I can't buy that reasoning as anything but out of character unless I accept that she was sufficiently distraught and failed to notice the irony and dare I say, hypocrisy of that particular statement.  

I wonder where you got the idea that wasn't a correct description of the situation, that Niket really did less than he could have to save his life. Really, he did just stand there dejectedly, as if waiting for someone to punish him for his betrayal. I see no problem at all with taking that at face value.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 septembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[Jebel Krong]

been playing around with this image in search of something more pleasing, i'm not 100% happy with it, but:

original work cr: yatenkou

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 28 septembre 2010 - 01:47 .