15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Jebel Krong]

Arijharn wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Intellectually she's dealt with it, but emotionally she hasn't because she constantly brings it up. Emotions don't have anything to do with rational decisions, which is probably why they're called emotions to begin with.

She knows she is intelligent, she knows she should take the credit for her accomplishments, but she doesn't because she feels she doesn't deserve them. It takes the exceptional Shephard to help her see this though (and therefore is it any wonder then that she falls in love with him? -- Shephard is practically the perfect bloody human specimen after all).

Makes me wonder if he's engineered, too. Default Shep has eyes that arouse my suspicion given the information in the Codex.

Apart from that, no, I don't like the assumption she needs Shepard to see her problems through. I very much suspect an extended talk with her sister would do the job as well, since she shares Miranda's origin and doesn't seem to have these problems.

She probably doesn't need Shephard, she wants him as she see's a kindred spirit. She see's herself as engineered (for perfection), and well, Shephard to her is naturally perfect (the three different origin stories for Shephard doesn't make it very likely at all that Shephard was in some way genetically engineered. Why would a family that could afford to genetically engineer their son live on a remote colony world like Mindoir? Why would a genetically engineered Shephard be cast out of his family and forced to live on the streets of Earth?) Sorry, but I don't buy it at all.

Shephard is an all-conquering hero with probably something like a 'divine' birthright thrust upon him by the fates to lead the galaxy to break it out of its cycle of extinction. He has seen and performed actions that would make action movie stars cower in fear and he obviously has big brass ba-... you get the idea. Basically all this means she'd invariably open up to him imo.

Shepard = Achilles? 

Angmir wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...
And I agree with you Jeb. I find Miri's infertility non-canon cause it's just pure boll**ks that's in the message.

A sfar as you can Consider true whatever you like, hell you can reject that Reapers exist, but it wont change the fact that they do exist (in ME World at least), and so that Miranda is in fact infertile. well it's been just this one message, but a lot of things about ME universe are based about single piece of information - and usually they are reafirmed later.

i disregard it because:
a. none of the dossiers seem to be meant to be taken seriously
b. they are in a dlc, which whilst official, can't be assumed that everyone will see (otherwise it would have been in the main game).
so, unless it is reinforced in a main game or further major DLC, i will ignore it.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 28 septembre 2010 - 02:00 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I wonder where you got the idea that wasn't a correct description of the situation, that Niket really did less than he could have to save his life. Really, he did just stand there dejectedly, as if waiting for someone to punish him for his betrayal. I see no problem at all with taking that at face value.

My belief is there's no way to gauge a person's real responses and intentions when the other party is pointing a gun at their head. Miranda clearly had the power and the upper hand in this episode, authority that takes away a degree of autonomy on Niket's part. Niket was a non-combatant, and his responses cannot be taken at face value. He could be shell-shocked to the extent of being incapable of action, he might still be of the mentality that Miranda would change her mind. All we have is her assertion that he knew she had to do this, but did he? After all, she failed to realise that he would betray her after learning about the existence of Oriana in the first place.

[Elyvern]

In case I came across as an agent provocateur, I want to state that I'm stil thinking through the ramifications of letting Miranda kill Niket, and I think I am fine with the notion that she was emotionally distraught about killing Niket, hence her (to me) irrational responses. An intelligent woman like her wouldn't discount the power that a gun has during a scene like this under normal circumstances. Like fongiel, I love Miranda for both her strengths and (what I perceive as) her flaws. For me, it's what makes her so appealing a character, hence I don't make excuses for either. Doesn't mean I'm out to troll or burst anyone's bubbles if anyone should think so. 

Modifié par Elyvern, 28 septembre 2010 - 04:55 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
In case I came across as an agent provocateur, I want to state that I'm stil thinking through the ramifications of letting Miranda kill Niket, and I think I am fine with the notion that she was emotionally distraught about killing Niket, hence her (to me) irrational responses. An intelligent woman like her wouldn't discount the power that a gun has during a scene like this under normal circumstances. Like fongiel, I love Miranda for both her strengths and her flaws. For me, it's what makes her so appealing a character, hence I don't make excuses for either. Doesn't mean I'm out to troll or burst anyone's bubbles if anyone should think so. 

Well, your scenario is one possible explanation, but I do recall the scene, and it never occurred to me that her statements should/could ?? not be taken at face value. I think it was intended to be taken so, and it succeeded with me. Your explanation sounds more like a rationalization of....whatever made you see this scene in a different way. So, while I don't think you're out to troll, I must admit your viewpoint is absolutely baffling and incomprehensible to me, and I still can't agree. 

Maybe it's just that Miranda killing Niket in that scene is OK with me.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 septembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Major Truth]

Apologies if I'm slighly off topic. I'm doing a big ME1 and ME2 survey (details can be found in this thread-  social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/128/index/4900609 ) and it has produced so far some interesting results relating to Miranda

When going through the responses probably the most varied views concern Miranda. Once the above survey is done I want to do a seperate one just around Miranda Lawson. For the moment I'm just still developing the questions, but if anyone would like to go in and take a look and give me some feedback that would be great. And since ye giys know the most about Miranda.............

The Miranda survey is at the below link:

www.kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php

If you have any idea's about the current questions or adding questions then please let me know either through PM or on the above thread related to the ME1 and ME2 surveys (I don't want to be taking up room in this thread)

The survey isnt live so you don't need to vote. Anyways tell me what you think of the questions and format

Modifié par Major Truth, 28 septembre 2010 - 05:12 .

[jtav]

I think I agree with Elyvern here. She does seem to be grappling with some degree of guilt after she shoots Niket. It really does sound as if she's trying to convince herself that she did what she had to and that the blame doesn't lie with her.

[Ieldra]

Major Truth wrote...

www.kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php

If you have any idea's about the current questions or adding questions then please let me know either through PM or on the above thread related to the ME1 and ME2 surveys (I don't want to be taking up room in this thread)

The survey isnt live so you don't need to vote. Anyways tell me what you think of the questions and format

I should point you to the Miranda Lawson FAQ to extend some of the questions. Also, there are questions - 14 and 16 in particular, but there may be others - that need multiple answers enabled. Third, question 25 needs the option "I resolved the conflict with persuasion" added. And lastly, do you really think many people will answer an extensive character-oriented survey who aren't already fans? I'm sorry I have to say so, but I do not think putting that much work into it as you apparently do will be worth the results you'll be getting.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 septembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Major Truth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

www.kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php

If you have any idea's about the current questions or adding questions then please let me know either through PM or on the above thread related to the ME1 and ME2 surveys (I don't want to be taking up room in this thread)

The survey isnt live so you don't need to vote. Anyways tell me what you think of the questions and format

I should point you to the Miranda Lawson FAQ to extend some of the questions. Also, there are questions - 14 and 16 in particular, but there may be others - that need multiple answers enabled. And third, do you really think many people will answer an extensive character-oriented survey who aren't already fans? I'm sorry I have to say so, but I do not think putting that much work into it as you apparently do will be worth the results you'll be getting.

A fair point. To be honest if the interest isn't their I won't go ahead with it, it would be as you say too much work for too little results. Thanks for your feedback

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
In case I came across as an agent provocateur, I want to state that I'm stil thinking through the ramifications of letting Miranda kill Niket, and I think I am fine with the notion that she was emotionally distraught about killing Niket, hence her (to me) irrational responses. An intelligent woman like her wouldn't discount the power that a gun has during a scene like this under normal circumstances. Like fongiel, I love Miranda for both her strengths and her flaws. For me, it's what makes her so appealing a character, hence I don't make excuses for either. Doesn't mean I'm out to troll or burst anyone's bubbles if anyone should think so. 

Well, your scenario is one possible explanation, but I do recall the scene, and it never occurred to me that her statements should/could ?? not be taken at face value. I think it was intended to be taken so, and it succeeded with me. Your explanation sounds more like a rationalization of....whatever made you see this scene in a different way. So, while I don't think you're out to troll, I must admit your viewpoint is absolutely baffling and incomprehensible to me, and I still can't agree. 

Maybe it's just that Miranda killing Niket in that scene is OK with me.

I'll admit alot of it boils down to a gut feeling, but I'll try to explain it with in-game examples. We have seen situations where Miranda kills someone or advocates killing and justifying the act with a pragmatic explanation.  Wilson is, of course, the best example. Another would be when she chides Shepard for being too generous if he lets Rana Thanoptis go free. In both situations, she doesn't try to whitewash her decision or inclination to kill. That she thinks it's neccessary is implicit throughout.

In killing Niket, she retains the recognition that it was again neccessary, but strangely enough, she actually tries to pass off her culpability this time:

1) that Niket committed suicide by allowing her to kill him
2) that while she's responsible, the fault actually lies with her father

This is the part I find perplexing. Pragmatism and the tendency to see that the ends justifies the means is very much part of Miranda's personality, and it isn't restricted to situations that require killing. Most importantly, she is well aware of her stance in situations like this: morality be damned because it's needful and she isn't an apologist about what she feels. But in this case, she's making emotionally-tinged justifications for what would be, under normal circumstances, the most practical and failsafe way of ensuring Orian'a safety. Saying Niket committed suicide when she was the one who held the gun, and thus held the power in this situation, contains more than a shade of needing some sort of psychological vindication for her action. Likewise blaming her father when she personally pulled the trigger feels like an attempt to shift blame to the moral realm and away from herself, again something that isn't her usual modus operandi.  

Note that I don't deny that she probably saw Niket's death as the best way to safeguard her sister's secret, but why is there a need for such justifications if she hasn't any self-doubts to assuage in the first place?  

Modifié par Elyvern, 28 septembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

I'll admit alot of it boils down to a gut feeling, but I'll try to explain it with in-game examples. We have seen situations where Miranda kills someone or advocates killing and justifying the act with a pragmatic explanation.  Wilson is, of course, the best example. Another would be when she chides Shepard for being too generous if he lets Rana Thanoptis go free. In both situations, she doesn't try to whitewash her decision or inclination to kill. That she thinks it's neccessary is implicit throughout.

In killing Niket, she retains the recognition that it was again neccessary, but strangely enough, she actually tries to pass off her culpability this time:

1) that Niket committed suicide by allowing her to kill him
2) that while she's responsible, the fault actually lies with her father

This is the part I find perplexing. Pragmatism and the tendency to see that the means justifies the ends is very much part of Miranda's personality, and it isn't restricted to situations that require killing. Most importantly, she is well aware of her stance in situations like this: morality be damned because it's needful and she isn't an apologist about what she feels. But in this case, she's making emotionally-tinged justifications for what would be, under normal circumstances, the most practical and failsafe way of ensuring Orian'a safety. Saying Niket committed suicide when she was the one who held the gun, and thus held the power in this situation, contains more than a shade of needing some sort of psychological vindication for her action. Likewise blaming her father when she personally pulled the trigger feels like an attempt to shift blame to the moral realm and away from herself, again something that isn't her usual modus operandi.  

Note that I don't deny that she probably saw Niket's death as the best way to safeguard her sister's secret, but why is there a need for such justifications if she hasn't any self-doubts to assuage in the first place?  

This just occurred to me. Could it be possible that killing Niket is the first time Miranda has ever killed someone outside the context of her job or because she needed to to protect herself? Killing is normally not a big problem for her because she's always been able to justify it as "my mission takes precedence over morality", "I'm killing someone who had it coming", "it was either him or me", etc..

In this case, killing Niket isn't such a clearcut case of necessesity. While yes, killing him would remove another loose end, she already knows her father has turned him, making him worthless to her father as an asset in the future. Also, while he knows Oriana's identity and location at the moment, Cerberus has proven that it can easily change both of those very quickly. For Miranda, killing Niket is as much punishing betrayal and vengeance as it is necessessity. Killing out of necessessity may not be new for her, but killing for vengeance certainly might be. 

This might be the reason why Miranda feels the need to rationalize her decision for Shepard and herself. As we've discussed before, Miranda isn't a bad person at heart and she's not a true villain. She does immoral things, but only as a part of her pragmatic "ends justifies the means" philosophy. She doesn't kill because she enjoys it. She kills because she has to. Niket is a case where maybe killing wasn't an absolute necessessity and there were other options.

Modifié par fongiel24, 28 septembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[Arijharn]

I don't know Fongiel, although I'm inclined to agree with yourself & Elyvern. She just seems to be trying too hard to justify her actions where as the Miranda I knew before wouldn't need any real justification at all, that it would be 'obvious.'

[Ieldra]

More about Niket later. For now, just a needed distraction from the debate...

[Jebel Krong]

i alwys like the lighting on omega, it's more dramatic and unlit than almost anywhere else. given the improvements even from this in LoSB - especially wrt the global illumination that's now present, i expect some truly impressive stuff in ME3.

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Note that I don't deny that she probably saw Niket's death as the best way to safeguard her sister's secret, but why is there a need for such justifications if she hasn't any self-doubts to assuage in the first place?  

You do have a point there, though I still don't get your reasoning about how having a gun pointed at Niket makes her observation invalid. I've never had a gun pointed at me, but I'm quite sure I wouldn't just be standing there as if waiting to be killed, unless I thought it would improve my chances of survival or i tried to play something like a dare. That's what I never get in movies: people follow the gunman's orders even if they know they'll be killed at the end, to the point of helping him to obfuscate his trail. One would think that with nothing left to lose, they'd rather try a desperate escape. I usually lose all sympathy for the victims when I see them following like a sheep to the slaughter. To get back to Niket, it seems plausible to me that he would feel guilty enough to do less that he could have to save his life, after all he just betrayed his oldest friend. Being confronted by Miranda, which he never expected, may have brought this home to him.

But assuming what Miranda says is some kind of additional justification, which I admit is also plausible, I think it's because this killing is personal for her, possibly unlike any other situation she's encountered before. As fongiel says, perhaps there was an element of revenge in it this time. Even if it wasn't what triggered the act in the end, it may have been present and Miranda would be uncomfortable with it. Also, unlike others she's killed, Niket had been her closest friend, and she couldn't kill him as emotionlessly as she killed Wilson.

Maybe it's a little of both.

[Jebel Krong]

cr: here

[t3HPrO]

Honestly speaking, I think that killing Niket was the first time ever Miranda had to kill someone close to her, someone she held dear. That's why she's confused and lost.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
Note that I don't deny that she probably saw Niket's death as the best way to safeguard her sister's secret, but why is there a need for such justifications if she hasn't any self-doubts to assuage in the first place?  

You do have a point there, though I still don't get your reasoning about how having a gun pointed at Niket makes her observation invalid. I've never had a gun pointed at me, but I'm quite sure I wouldn't just be standing there as if waiting to be killed, unless I thought it would improve my chances of survival or i tried to play something like a dare. That's what I never get in movies: people follow the gunman's orders even if they know they'll be killed at the end, to the point of helping him to obfuscate his trail. One would think that with nothing left to lose, they'd rather try a desperate escape. I usually lose all sympathy for the victims when I see them following like a sheep to the slaughter. To get back to Niket, it seems plausible to me that he would feel guilty enough to do less that he could have to save his life, after all he just betrayed his oldest friend. Being confronted by Miranda, which he never expected, may have brought this home to him.

But assuming what Miranda says is some kind of additional justification, which I admit is also plausible, I think it's because this killing is personal for her, possibly unlike any other situation she's encountered before. As fongiel says, perhaps there was an element of revenge in it this time. Even if it wasn't what triggered the act in the end, it may have been present and Miranda would be uncomfortable with it. Also, unlike others she's killed, Niket had been her closest friend, and she couldn't kill him as emotionlessly as she killed Wilson.

Maybe it's a little of both.

Her assertion about Niket isn't invalid, but it's not certain either. Facing gun point can make alot of people do things they normally wouldn't. In this case, she wouldn't be able to say "you should know now that I'm never wrong" especially when it's something so close to her heart and when Niket has already demonstrated that she doesn't know him that well. I agree that the revenge could be a possible factor here, and all in all, the tone of her justifications feels like she was trying to convince herself emotionally and psychologically, and Shepard to a lesser extent, why she did what she did, and not so much trying to provide a pragmatic explanation like in other situations. 

Anyway, it was just an observation, and one which mostly affects meta-gaming. I don't think I'd let her shoot Niket again because it pains me to see her destroy one of the few personal ties she has with such obvious distraught. It also makes me wonder if we can extend this to two other incidents which I felt she was OOC in (ie. choosing to respond emotionally instead of via her usual pragmatism): her betrayal of TIM about the Collector's Base and the romance conflict scene. Unfortunately, in the case of the CB situation, I still find it hard to justify that she felt emotionally enough to think destroying the base was the right choice considering the seriousness of the matter and the fact that we weren't given any build-up before. But I think It could explain her irrational outburst for the scene where she says she wants everyone to know Shepard is hers. 

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 septembre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Anyway, it was just an observation, and one which mostly affects meta-gaming. I don't think I'd let her shoot Niket again because it pains me to see her destroy one of the few personal ties she has with such obvious distraught. It also makes me wonder if we can extend this to two other incidents which I felt she was OOC in (ie. choosing to respond emotionally instead of via her usual pragmatism): her betrayal of TIM about the Collector's Base and the romance conflict scene. Unfortunately, in the case of the CB situation, I still find it hard to justify that she felt emotionally enough to think destroying the base was the right choice considering the seriousness of the matter and the fact that we weren't given any build-up before. But I think It could explain her irrational outburst for the scene where she says she wants everyone to know Shepard is hers. 

There are two different problems here:

(1) The CB decision is problematic because I'd expect her to overrule her emotional reaction. The decision is too important to make on an impulse. At the very least, I'd expect her to acknowledge the merits of keeping the base even should she in the end not agree. 

(2) The romance conflict outburst is problematic because of the kind of emotion expressed. Miranda has been established as a very reserved person, and while I'd fully expect her to be uncharacteristically emotional in a situation like that, expressing that with "everyone needs to know..." comes completely out of the blue and goes far beyond what is explainable by her emotional state.

@t3HPrO:
I tend to agree with you.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 septembre 2010 - 12:51 .

[Jebel Krong]

still playing around with the wallpaper i posted yesterday, i like this one more, even if it's lost it's simplicity:

EDIT: variation (minus the square pattern) -

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[jtav]

Nice wallpaper.

[t3HPrO]

@Jeb

Lovin it. Awesome wallpaper.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
Anyway, it was just an observation, and one which mostly affects meta-gaming. I don't think I'd let her shoot Niket again because it pains me to see her destroy one of the few personal ties she has with such obvious distraught. It also makes me wonder if we can extend this to two other incidents which I felt she was OOC in (ie. choosing to respond emotionally instead of via her usual pragmatism): her betrayal of TIM about the Collector's Base and the romance conflict scene. Unfortunately, in the case of the CB situation, I still find it hard to justify that she felt emotionally enough to think destroying the base was the right choice considering the seriousness of the matter and the fact that we weren't given any build-up before. But I think It could explain her irrational outburst for the scene where she says she wants everyone to know Shepard is hers. 

There are two different problems here:

(1) The CB decision is problematic because I'd expect her to overrule her emotional reaction. The decision is too important to make on an impulse. At the very least, I'd expect her to acknowledge the merits of keeping the base even should she in the end not agree. 


(2) The romance conflict outburst is problematic because of the kind of emotion expressed. Miranda has been established as a very reserved person, and while I'd fully expect her to be uncharacteristically emotional in a situation like that, expressing that with "everyone needs to know..." comes completely out of the blue and goes far beyond what is explainable by her emotional state.

As I said, I still have problems with the CB decision. It is indeed too important to let emotions override what would be the rational and most pragmatic decision.

I can buy her reaction in the romance conflict scene in that while personality-wise she would prefer a more reserved approach especially in the public arena, but her most primal impulse would be to be possessive over Shepard. And the emotional quotient in that scene would be sufficient enough to provoke an unmitigated emotional outburst from her, especially when the scene only involves her and Shepard and no other bystanders.

@Jebel - I think that's the best wallpaper permutation so far. Great work!

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Ieldra]

@Jebel Krong:
The second one is the best so far. I'm tempted to change the one I have now...

@Elyvern:
She'd be possessive, yes. But in which way - by making it all very public? That just doesn't feel right... anyway, I never get that scene, so it doesn't concern me overmuch.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Axestone]

Jebel Krong

One of the most beautiful pictures which I ever saw.

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Elyvern:
She'd be possessive, yes. But in which way - by making it all very public? That just doesn't feel right... anyway, I never get that scene, so it doesn't concern me overmuch.

But that's my point: it wasn't public. The confrontation only involves her and Shepard. And thus I felt it was within the realm of plausibility that she said what she said in a private capacity. Do note that we don't see her acting on that sentiment (she wants everyone to know Shepard is hers) publicly, which would still support the argument that she is by nature, a reserved person.

I suppose we differ in the sense that I want all of Miranda's actions to cohere to her established personality regardless of all the different choices I make as Shepard. I have never personally encountered the romance conflict scene myself because Miranda is the only LI for all my malesheps, although I have seen the scene on youtube. To put it another way, someone who always gives TIM the Collector's base for every playthrough wouldn't have to grapple with the OOC incident where Miranda advocates destroying the base, but it doesn't mean we can factor away her response in such a situation.

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:01 .