15168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Elyvern:
She'd be possessive, yes. But in which way - by making it all very public? That just doesn't feel right... anyway, I never get that scene, so it doesn't concern me overmuch.

But that's my point: it wasn't public. The confrontation only involves her and Shepard. And thus I felt it was within the realm of plausibility that she said what she said in a private capacity. Do note that we don't see her acting on that sentiment (she wants everyone to know Shepard is hers) publicly, which would still support the argument that she is by nature, a reserved person.

You misunderstood. By "by making it public" I meant exactly that she apparently expects Shepard to trumpet it all to everyone on the Normandy. That's what doesn't ring true with her being reserved.

I suppose we differ in the sense that I want all of Miranda's actions to cohere to her established personality regardless of all the different choices I make as Shepard. I have never personally encountered the romance conflict scene myself because Miranda is the only LI for all my malesheps, although I have seen the scene on youtube. To put it another way, someone who always gives TIM the Collector's base for every playthrough wouldn't have to grapple with the OOC incident where Miranda advocates destroying the base, but it doesn't mean we can factor away her response in such a situation.

As a matter of principle, I'd agree with you. I suppose it's easier to discount a situation that rarely *anyone* encounters like that particular version of the romance conflict - because it's only one of two versions, and the other one happens to be more frequent. When we were first discussing this a few months back, I recall it took some time to get a verified quote of it because people here never encountered it in their regular playthroughs.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Elyvern:
She'd be possessive, yes. But in which way - by making it all very public? That just doesn't feel right... anyway, I never get that scene, so it doesn't concern me overmuch.

But that's my point: it wasn't public. The confrontation only involves her and Shepard. And thus I felt it was within the realm of plausibility that she said what she said in a private capacity. Do note that we don't see her acting on that sentiment (she wants everyone to know Shepard is hers) publicly, which would still support the argument that she is by nature, a reserved person.

You misunderstood. By "by making it public" I meant exactly that she apparently expects Shepard to trumpet it all to everyone on the Normandy. That's what doesn't ring true with her being reserved.

I really hate pulling out this card, I really do, but in this case it does seem plausible.

I admire the fact that Miranda isn't protrayed as a stereotypical woman ruled by her emotions and also the fact that given some of the circumstances we've explored, a man (given that we agree are generally less emotional) would likely make the decisions she do, but in this case, it does seem that gender differences play a part.

Women are more likely to say one thing in public, but be of the opposite sentiment in the emotional and psychological realm. In Miranda's case, you could see it as in an ideal situation, she wants to be acknowledge as Shepard's only one, but she wouldn't take steps to create such a situation in public. I believe it's one of the biggest reasons why men find women baffling. I say this as a woman (in case you've been wondering about my gender all along) and while I don't discount that you can take what she says in face-value, but I wouldn't discredit the possibility that there's a gender difference in what she meant to establish privately and publicly.

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[jtav]

I admit I took that line as fanservice ego-stroking and do my best to ignore it.

[Ieldra]

@Elyvern
You know, I'd rather continue to pretend that outburst didn't exist than accept your reasoning (the plausibility of which I can't judge except I know that such behaviour does exist). Because if I had to accept it, I'd have to terminate the romance.

I hate that you pulled that card, too.

@jtav:
Yes. I find meta-reasoning like that much more palatable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[jtav]

Would you guys mind if I posted a small snippet? I'm describing the working of the greybox and need some feedback.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Would you guys mind if I posted a small snippet? I'm describing the working of the greybox and need some feedback.

Post it, please. I need something to get away from a very unpleasant topic. BTW, Elyvern has just admitted she's a woman.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:06 .

[jtav]

Your wish is my command.

She took a seat at the desk in the far corner of her bedroom. There was much to do in the hours before Liara arrived. The most important of which was to make sure that her greybox was operating at peak efficiency. "Lights: dim," she said. "Noise cancellation: 100%." The apartment lights obediently dimmed, transforming the walls from off-white to gray. The already faint sounds of Nos Astra's bustle grew even quieter. Memory retrieval could be done in any environment, of course; but like its organic counterpart, the greybox worked best when its user was free from distraction and unnecessary stimuli. Miranda closed her eyes and counted backwards from ten very slowly. The outside world fell away and she was lost to the memories.

Miranda had been among the first non-Alzheimer's patients to be installed with a mnemonic neural stimulator. Her father had wanted the best memory could buy. The salarians' eidetic memories made them the galaxy's premier scientists and spies. Simple genetic engineering would never allow humanity to compete, no more than those children who had developed biotic talent could compete with an asari. Surgery would have to pick up where nature left off. David Ellison had taken the daughter he had intended as an exemplar of humanity and pushed her beyond even that. She would never forget anything that happened from the date of the last surgery to the present. Her memories would never be stolen by dementia. And she was the only member of the Lazarus Cell who stood a chance of retrieving Shepard's memories.

There were side effects. Miranda did not think like an ordinary human. An ordinary person's mind was jumbled. He would remember what he had for breakfast that morning—a bagel and coffee. The coffee would remind him of his first wife, who always took it with cream. This would remind him that his current wife will be late because she was picking the kids up from baseball practice. Which would remind him that he has tickets to Saturday's Oriel's game. Without conscious thought, he might suddenly find himself thinking of how his favorite player from a completely different team is doing. All from breakfast. Marketers had spent a fortune studying the haphazard human mind.

Miranda's wasn't like that. When Miranda thought of breakfast, the greybox supplied a litany of meals organized by date, location, or main course. If she focused on coffee, it would call up everything from drinking synthetic swill on Omega to an extranet report on the death of the CEO of Folgers-Maxwell that she'd read two years ago. But she had to choose to think of these things. She wasn't a drell. Memories could no longer flicker unbidden through her mind. The greybox stored information. It did not prod. Miranda was never distracted unless she wished to be. This was by necessity. She was still human. Her mind still made connections between seemingly unrelated things. The difference was that if her thoughts were left a jumbled mess—if any of those connections could be activated at any moment—then her brain would suddenly be forced to deal with twenty years worth of data. She would remember one thing and be forced to remember twenty others only tangentially related. Her synapses would burn out from the strain of vomiting up information.

Liara T'Soni, she thought. The greybox served up its accumulated data at what another part of her mind recognized was unacceptable rate. Her mind's eye saw them as row upon row of still images, like previews of videos waiting to be played back in full. In less time than it took her to blink, she had the one she wanted.

And, yes, the rather obvious Chekhov's gun does get fired

[Elyvern]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Elyvern
You know, I'd rather continue to pretend that outburst didn't exist than accept your reasoning (the plausibility of which I can't judge except I know that such behaviour does exist). Because if I had to accept it, I'd have to terminate the romance.

I hate that you pulled that card, too.

Apologies. I don't mean to destroy anyone's interpretation of Miranda. In fact, I want to thank this forum and all its contributors for helping shape and solidify my personal interpretation of Miranda. And that's what it all boils down to: to bring about different but arguably valid interpretations to the wonderful character that is Miranda Lawson. I also admit I have a bad habit of carrying things to their logical conclusions, despite the fact that the end result may or may not be distasteful. I also feel that my gender shouldn't have any relevance in my contributions to the thread except I felt the point in my earlier post required more substantiation beyond an academic understanding. So let's just move along now.

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Ieldra]

Very interesting, jtav. I'm already looking forward to the full story. A few points:

(1) How can a greybox work at less than peak efficiency, being an implant that needs no maintenance? It sounds like you wanted a rationalization for why Miranda's doing this at this moment, but in fact you don't need it, since she's apparently looking for a specific memory.

(2) Your reasoning about thinking processes rings true, only it raises additional questions. Changing associative thinking like you describe seems a rather complex thing, which may qualify Miranda to be regarded as non-human by those who know. And there's the question of, if Miranda's brain still makes tangential connections, how the greybox "de-tangles" the memories it stores, for it would need to do this, otherwise the avalanche could still be triggered by almost anything. You needn't answer these questions I think - most readers will probably not even notice. But it's better to be aware of them.

(3) Non-American readers will likely be unaware of any connection between "Folgers-Maxwell" and coffee (I had to look it up - but that may also be because I never drink coffee).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Ieldra]

Elyvern wrote...
Apologies. I don't mean to destroy anyone's interpretation of Miranda. In fact, I want to thank this forum and all its contributors for helping shape and solidify my personal interpretation of Miranda. And that's what it all boils down to: to bring about different but arguably valid interpretations to the wonderful character that is Miranda Lawson. I also admit I have a bad habit of carrying things to their logical conclusions, despite the fact that the end result may or may not be distasteful. I also feel that my gender shouldn't have any relevance in my contributions to the thread except I felt the point in my earlier post required more substantiation beyond an academic understanding. So let's just move along now.

No matter. You couldn't know how allergic I am to the kind of behaviour you described. As a rule, I prefer to think through to the end as well, but with regard to ME characters (and game characters in general, as opposed to book characters) I think that the writers very likely thought less about their
characters than we've done here in the past eight months, so it's safe to assume that Miranda as
written is less a coherent whole than we're trying to construct here. As a result, I feel justified in letting a detail hang unconnected in the air here and there and disregarding it.

[Elyvern]

jtav wrote...

Your wish is my command.

(snip)

And, yes, the rather obvious Chekhov's gun does get fired

Wonderful extrapolation of how a Greybox works. I have no problems with the Maxwell reference, because we have that brand here.

I'm curious now, have you read the Mark Vorkorsigan series by Lois Bujold Macmaster? Because your intepretation of the greybox is similar to the eidetic memory chip that's the main focus of the novel "Memory".

I'm also concerned with the long term effects of such a device. In "Memory" it was stated that 9/10 people installed with the chip develop schizophrenia soon after from the effect of altering memory retrieval drastically from the normal functionings of the human mind. Will there be side effects for Miranda?

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[jtav]

Elyvern, I'm very familiar with the Vorkosigan novels, though I haven't read Memory. There will be no direct side effects from the greybox, though things can become very interesting when it's combined with an asari mind meld.

Ieldra, the distancing of Miranda from normal human thought is intentional. The idea that she's less/more/other than human is something she's been dealing with for years and is the main reason her infertility is so devastating. I seem to recall a number of fantasy stories where the telltale sign that a human-seeming creature is unnatural is that it's sterile. Banishing those doubts is a major part of her development.

I'm not normally a sci-fi writer. Hopefully this experiment works out well.

Modifié par jtav, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:34 .

[Ieldra]

I have a question about the fanfic I'm writing. Would you consider it terribly OOC if Shepard was actually good at dancing? I don't want to write comedy...

@jtav:
No need to worry about the sci-fi. You're doing well as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[SgtPotato]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have a question about the fanfic I'm writing. Would you consider it terribly OOC if Shepard was actually good at dancing? I don't want to write comedy...

@jtav:
No need to worry about the sci-fi. You're doing well as far as I'm concerned.

Slow dancing would be nice.

[jtav]

I wouldn't consider it OOC. Just a limitation of the game engine.

[Elyvern]

SgtPotato wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have a question about the fanfic I'm writing. Would you consider it terribly OOC if Shepard was actually good at dancing? I don't want to write comedy...

@jtav:
No need to worry about the sci-fi. You're doing well as far as I'm concerned.

Slow dancing would be nice.

Yes, slow dancing would be most appropriate considering Shepard's spastic moves with fast music.

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

I really hate pulling out this card, I really do, but in this case it does seem plausible.

I admire the fact that Miranda isn't protrayed as a stereotypical woman ruled by her emotions and also the fact that given some of the circumstances we've explored, a man (given that we agree are generally less emotional) would likely make the decisions she do, but in this case, it does seem that gender differences play a part.

Women are more likely to say one thing in public, but be of the opposite sentiment in the emotional and psychological realm. In Miranda's case, you could see it as in an ideal situation, she wants to be acknowledge as Shepard's only one, but she wouldn't take steps to create such a situation in public. I believe it's one of the biggest reasons why men find women baffling. I say this as a woman (in case you've been wondering about my gender all along) and while I don't discount that you can take what she says in face-value, but I wouldn't discredit the possibility that there's a gender difference in what she meant to establish privately and publicly.

I'm kinda with Ieldra in that I never get this scene, so I don't think about it all that much. If I had to rationalize it though, I'd put it in the same category as Miranda trying to justify killing Niket. Being in an exclusive relationship where she cares about someone that much isn't something she's ever experienced (no confirmation of this in-game, but that's my theory). Seeing as this is an experience she's never had before, she might be acting instinctively rather than rationally as she normally would. Having Shepard continue to flirt with other members of the crew might cause her to panic a little and thus act emotionally in a way she otherwise wouldn't, resulting in a slightly OOC moment.

The reason this and Niket differ from the CB is that the CB is a situation she's faced before. In her line of work, making decisions about doing the distasteful but necessary should be routine, thus it makes no sense that this should be any different. In the case of the CB, the stakes are higher and the horrors more gruesome, but I would think the decision would be easier since it wasn't Cerberus that inflicted those horrors.

BTW, you're female Elyvern? Christ... just when I'd though I'd figured out everyone's gender in here. Can't everybody use a same-sex avatar or something? I originally thought Ieldra was a female due to his avatar, and I thought you were a male due to yours. *wonders if he should be getting a Princess Peach avatar*

@jtav - I have one issue with the greybox and two possible nitpicks.

I don't understand that "Miranda only gets distracted when she wants to be". First, why would she ever want to be distracted? Secondly, what about the impact of emotions? Emotions are distractions but they're mostly involuntary. When you experience personal tragedy, you don't choose to feel sad, you just are. Finally, I don't see why Miranda's greybox would just start dumping information into her brain if her mind wanders. I thought she consciously had to think of something for the greybox to work?

From a character development standpoint, I'm also a little concerned that this idea is turning Miranda too much into a non-human. I get that you're trying to emphasize that she's significantly different, but what you've got makes her sound a little too much like a robot. I'm no neurologist, but I would think some degree of randomness in thought patterns is natural in humans and may actually offer great benefits. After all, who would we "stumble upon" an idea if we can only think what we direct our minds to think?

Nitpicks. Oriels - Are you sure you're not talking about Orioles (as in baseball's Baltimore Orioles)? I always thought an Oriel was a window... I have the same problem with the Folgers reference, but for a different reason. Where I live, Folgers either comes in a tin or bag as instant coffee of various arbitrary grades, some of which they claim to be gourmet. Regardless of the product, as instant coffee it's not great and not much far removed from your "synthetic swill". I can't really see Folgers improving on their product and exporting it in the future so successfully that it'd be front page news on the extranet. I might also just be still bitter towards Folgers because that's all I had to drink the last four months. If you're looking for an iconic coffee company, why not just go with Starbucks?

@Ieldra

Shepard being good at dancing is only OOC if you can't explain it. Without an explanation, I'd say it's a bit strange, since he's a career soldier without a lot of free time on his hands. In this case, I'd find slow dancing (I'm guessing people are thinking of ballroom-style dancing) to be more improbable than fast dancing because the latter he could have learned from going to lots of clubs. If you wrote it as Shepard being forced to learn to dance by his superiors so he could better find in at embassy balls and other formal events though, I'd have no problem buying it. He's probably naturally athletic so picking up dancing shouldn't be too difficult for him.

Modifié par fongiel24, 29 septembre 2010 - 08:01 .

[SgtPotato]

Elyvern wrote...

SgtPotato wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have a question about the fanfic I'm writing. Would you consider it terribly OOC if Shepard was actually good at dancing? I don't want to write comedy...

@jtav:
No need to worry about the sci-fi. You're doing well as far as I'm concerned.

Slow dancing would be nice.

Yes, slow dancing would be most appropriate considering Shepard's spastic moves with fast music.

Naw, maybe in a ball or maybe fund-rasing event. With the slow music, of course.

Modifié par SgtPotato, 29 septembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[Markinator_123]

Hello Miranda fans! I wanted to apologize for my thread concerning the control chip issue. I was reading through the topic the other day and I guess I was way too paranoid about it. It was just something that always bothered me about her and I guess I needed to address it publicly. I have learned to appreciate her character now in a different sense and I do like her. It's funny how Bioware can create such memorable and complex characters that you are always trying to figure them out. I conclude this by saying that whoever said Miranda is simple is dead wrong.

[Ieldra]

Hi Markinator. Thanks for coming here. I can understand being uncomfortable with the control chip issue. There has been some debate about that in this thread, though most of it some time ago. What surprised me was that you spent a number of months (??) in the Miranda group and, if I recall things correctly, even appeared in this thread occasionally, without the control chip being a big issue, so I was surprised when you suddenly left and made your thread about the control chip a few weeks ago. Anyway, nice that you've come to like Miranda (again?). Indeed, she has a number of personality traits that draw her into different directions, and they sometimes interact in surprising ways.

BTW, the man who said Miranda was simple (to be correct, he said she was "a simpler character" compared to Jack) was Casey Hudson, project director of ME2.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 septembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Markinator_123]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hi Markinator. Thanks for coming here. I can understand being uncomfortable with the control chip issue. There has been some debate about that in this thread, though most of it some time ago. What surprised me was that you spent a number of months (??) in the Miranda group and, if I recall things correctly, even appeared in this thread occasionally, without the control chip being a big issue, so I was surprised when you suddenly left and made your thread about the control chip a few weeks ago. Anyway, nice that you've come to like Miranda (again?). Indeed, she has a number of personality traits that draw her into different directions, and they sometimes interact in surprising ways.

BTW, the man who said Miranda was simple (to be correct, he said she was "a simpler character" compared to Jack) was Casey Hudson, project director of ME2.

I know that it was Casey Hudson who said that and I completely disagree with him.

[fongiel24]

Well Casey isn't one of the writers and when he made that statement, it was only shortly after the game had come out (I think) so he wouldn't really have had much time to experience the character. Superficially, Jack appears to be a deeper character because she's insane whereas Miranda's complexity doesn't really become clear until her loyalty mission, when we're told the specifics about her origins.

[jtav]

Let's hope his views are not shared by her writer. My continuing affection for is conditional on her not becoming one dimensional fanservice. She's one of the most complex characters in the series. Perhaps I overcomplicate her, but I like that I can do that.

[Elyvern]

fongiel24 wrote...

I'm kinda with Ieldra in that I never get this scene, so I don't think about it all that much. If I had to rationalize it though, I'd put it in the same category as Miranda trying to justify killing Niket. Being in an exclusive relationship where she cares about someone that much isn't something she's ever experienced (no confirmation of this in-game, but that's my theory). Seeing as this is an experience she's never had before, she might be acting instinctively rather than rationally as she normally would. Having Shepard continue to flirt with other members of the crew might cause her to panic a little and thus act emotionally in a way she otherwise wouldn't, resulting in a slightly OOC moment.

That's definitely a valid interpretation. Because personally, I didn't like my gender difference reading much in the first place even thought that was the one that came to my mind immediately. Need to work some mental mojo to wrap my conviction around your hypothesis now, but thank you for putting out the possibility.

The reason this and Niket differ from the CB is that the CB is a situation she's faced before. In her line of work, making decisions about doing the distasteful but necessary should be routine, thus it makes no sense that this should be any different. In the case of the CB, the stakes are higher and the horrors more gruesome, but I would think the decision would be easier since it wasn't Cerberus that inflicted those horrors.

The problem with this reading is if I have to accept that Miranda did act emotionally out of inexperience with situations like killing someone she cares in the person of Niket and her outburst in the romance conflict scene as the result of her finding herself in a serious romantic relationship for the first time, her character would already be in the danger of falling into realm of the archetypal emotional woman. There's a line that has to be drawn personally, and I'm not ready to accept that she subscribes to an emotional reasoning for something as large as keeping or destroying the collector's base because the fate of humanity, even the galaxy is at stake here.

From a character development standpoint, I'm also a little concerned that this idea is turning Miranda too much into a non-human. I get that you're trying to emphasize that she's significantly different, but what you've got makes her sound a little too much like a robot. I'm no neurologist, but I would think some degree of randomness in thought patterns is natural in humans and may actually offer great benefits. After all, who would we "stumble upon" an idea if we can only think what we direct our minds to think?

jtav did say she will explore the repercussions of that. I think it's an excellent point to begin with: create a state where Miranda's humanity is questioned and then embark on the journey/rationalisation that would bring some revelation/resolution to the issue. I wait to see how the story would unfold regarding this.

@Ieldra

Shepard being good at dancing is only OOC if you can't explain it. Without an explanation, I'd say it's a bit strange, since he's a career soldier without a lot of free time on his hands. In this case, I'd find slow dancing (I'm guessing people are thinking of ballroom-style dancing) to be more improbable than fast dancing because the latter he could have learned from going to lots of clubs. If you wrote it as Shepard being forced to learn to dance by his superiors so he could better find in at embassy balls and other formal events though, I'd have no problem buying it. He's probably naturally athletic so picking up dancing shouldn't be too difficult for him.

Except that it's been established Shepard is a klutz when it comes to fast dancing. So we can safely say he doesn't frequent clubs that much. In hindsight, I agree with fongiel. Shepard would likely have to undergo classes for ballroom dancing in preparation for his undercover work for it to be convincing.

Modifié par Elyvern, 29 septembre 2010 - 09:16 .

[fongiel24]

Elyvern wrote...

The problem with this reading is if I have to accept that Miranda did act emotionally out of inexperience with situations like killing someone she cares in the person of Niket and her outburst in the romance conflict scene as the result of her finding herself in a serious romantic relationship for the first time, her character would already be in the danger of falling into realm of the archetypal emotional woman. There's a line that has to be drawn personally, and I'm not ready to accept that she subscribes to an emotional reasoning for something as large as keeping or destroying the collector's base because the fate of humanity, even the galaxy is at stake here.

I probably didn't explain myself very well there. What I meant was I can buy Niket and Miranda's exclusive romance instances due to her inexperience in dealing with those situations. It's not a stereotypical emotional woman thing IMO, it's a human thing. When we're faced with situations we haven't dealt with before, most of us will act instinctually rather than rationally. I have a big problem with the Collector Base because this is a situation that Miranda would be very familiar with (not this situation specifically, but dealing with morally grey situations). I can't buy her making this decision emotionally. That's why I can accept Niket and her exclusive romance talk, but not her statements about destroying the Collector Base.

Except that it's been established Shepard is a klutz when it comes to fast dancing. So we can safely say he doesn't frequent clubs that much. In hindsight, I agree with fongiel. Shepard would likely have to undergo classes for ballroom dancing in preparation for his undercover work for it to be convincing.

But everybody sucks at dancing in ME due to the character animations. In Samara's mission, one of the ways he can impress Morinth is by actually going out on the dance floor and showing his moves. If he were a complete klutz on the dance floor, I doubt this would impress Morinth very much. Therefore, based on this I think it's safe to conclude that Shepard is at least a so-so dancer who possesses the confidence and personality to make other people think he's a great dancer. Even if we think he looks like a klutz, apparently people in the ME universe think he's fantastic!